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Spiritual Atheism

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I am curious why you think, without a spirit, human life is reduced. My view is that this only shows just how much more the physical world is capable of than anyone used to think. Matter *isn't* inert and non-reactive. it is dynamic and a deep part of who we are. Why is it any more a reduction to have our personality be based on brain states than it is to have them based on 'spiritual states'? What *extra* does the spiritual world give that the physical cannot?

To be spiritual is to deal with the heart, and will, as well as the mind. That to me is more accurate of experience. To inform the soul of wisdom, and understanding makes for a freer heart, mind and will.

I can't see how a brain state provides for adequate meaning, for how one feels, and cares about things. It's a foreign language to me and far less intuitive. Why would I need to be up on all this scientific jargon? I don't see how mechanisms relate anything about being and understanding. To me the science of consciousness is only prone to error, and misrepresentation, and poor definition of what's really going on.
I don't need a scientist monkeying around with my brain. I've been down that road and it's cost me with a far poorer quality of life. I've developed symptoms i never had til I was put on psychiatric drugs. Psychiatrists are still in the dark ages with medicine, there's very few medicines they have that don't do damage. And their methods are all guesswork.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I have no meaning in mind. I'm trying to infer your definition from what you say is and isn't "spiritual" and trying to relate that back to something that has to do with "spirit" somehow. So far, I haven't been able to do it.
Now I see the question clearly. My answer to the OP which is the same as other people's answer is that atheists can be spiritual. So my answer as well as the the answer of all the other people who said 'yes' was based on an assumption about the meaning of the word 'spiritual'.

The word 'spirit' has two meanings this one being the most germane: the nonphysical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character; the soul. "we seek a harmony between body and spirit"

So my 'yes' answer and everyone else's 'yes' answer is based on our shared agreement about how an atheist would understand the word 'spirit'.







 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Now I see the question clearly. My answer to the OP which is the same as other people's answer is that atheists can be spiritual. So my answer as well as the the answer of all the other people who said 'yes' was based on an assumption about the meaning of the word 'spiritual'.

The word 'spirit' has two meanings this one being the most germane: the nonphysical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character; the soul. "we seek a harmony between body and spirit"

So my 'yes' answer and everyone else's 'yes' answer is based on our shared agreement about how an atheist would understand the word 'spirit'.
I don't think that was everyone else's answer. We had a few people who defined spirituality in terms of belief in gods.

But back to yours: so I would have to accept the existence of a "soul" and the idea that it's "the seat of emotions and character" in order to see myself as spiritual by your definition?

If so, the definition seems to carry some baggage with it... like when a Christian describes a charitable act as "very Christian" of the person doing it.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
To be spiritual is to deal with the heart, and will, as well as the mind. That to me is more accurate of experience. To inform the soul of wisdom, and understanding makes for a freer heart, mind and will.

The heart is a muscle in your chest that pumps blood. Emotions are brain states also.

I can't see how a brain state provides for adequate meaning, for how one feels, and cares about things. It's a foreign language to me and far less intuitive. Why would I need to be up on all this scientific jargon? I don't see how mechanisms relate anything about being and understanding. To me the science of consciousness is only prone to error, and misrepresentation, and poor definition of what's really going on.
Well, maybe if you read up on what is known about the brain and how it functions, these questions would be answered. Emotions, which are what you are describing, are procesed by the brain also (and somewhat independently of thoughts).

I don't need a scientist monkeying around with my brain. I've been down that road and it's cost me with a far poorer quality of life. I've developed symptoms i never had til I was put on psychiatric drugs. Psychiatrists are still in the dark ages with medicine, there's very few medicines they have that don't do damage. And their methods are all guesswork.

I am sorry to hear that. Our understanding of how the brain works has grown tremendously in even the last few years. But even still, there is a great deal we do not know. Also, even when we know, we may not have specific drugs to target for a specific person or a way to determine which drug to use on a specific person.

But we do know many of the basics: thoughts, emotions, planning, etc *all* happen in the brain. In many cases, we can point to specific parts of the brain that do these activities.

So, yes, even the experience of something having 'meaning' is because of a brain state.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Now I see the question clearly. My answer to the OP which is the same as other people's answer is that atheists can be spiritual. So my answer as well as the the answer of all the other people who said 'yes' was based on an assumption about the meaning of the word 'spiritual'.

The word 'spirit' has two meanings this one being the most germane: the nonphysical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character; the soul. "we seek a harmony between body and spirit"

So my 'yes' answer and everyone else's 'yes' answer is based on our shared agreement about how an atheist would understand the word 'spirit'.

Why does the 'seat of emotions and character' have to be non-material?
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
Yes. Why not?

Carlita,,,, Let me try to explain. It revolves about what an atheist defines as 'reality'. Reality to me is what can be measured, and corroborated by the scientific method. Semantically it requires an object for the verb 'is', that is real, and has 'being'. But today no one cares to make this distinction, and spirits snd gods and such don't have any 'being', they exist only in your minds. As with trolls and such, do you regard them as 'real', and having 'being'? If an atheist says they believe in spirits, then they are not atheist, in the correct broadest sense of the word.
Atheism is an attempt to reach a 'reality' that we can all agree upon, because it's real and not just something anyone can imagine. Why does 'reality' have so little value today?
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
Yes everybody is spiritual. Everybody has a heart and soul therefore is spiritual, but an Atheist is spiritual like a lost lamb wandering far from his home.
Kemoslaby..... Not lost, sorry you misunderstand atheism. As I've posted elsewhere, atheism is concerned primarily with reality. Spirits are not real, and all you believers seem to be competing to create your own gods and goddesses. You're wrong that everybody has a soul, I'm not aware that I have a 'soul', whatever that could mean. Try a little test, and ask everyone to define spirit, and god, and see how many different responses you get.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Kemoslaby..... Not lost, sorry you misunderstand atheism. As I've posted elsewhere, atheism is concerned primarily with reality. Spirits are not real, and all you believers seem to be competing to create your own gods and goddesses. You're wrong that everybody has a soul, I'm not aware that I have a 'soul', whatever that could mean. Try a little test, and ask everyone to define spirit, and god, and see how many different responses you get.

It's true, it is difficult to say what part of a person is spirit and what part is mind. But once a spirit leaves the body all the minds in the world can't put it back. Jesus said "Ye are little gods" but we are not The God. Even gods have more than one meaning of god.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So a person that lacks belief in or does not believe in gods cannot be in touch with spirits?

They certainly can be, just not willfully. Show me a drunk atheists and I'll show you someone who has drunk so many alcoholic spirits, they are now influenced by spirits. That's why the English words are the same--they come from the biblical Greek that drugs and alcohol open us to spiritual possession.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Can an atheist can be spiritual?

If so, how? If not, why not?
Of course atheists can be spiritual. Just because a person doesn't believe in the existence of deities doesn't mean that they don't believe there is more to the world than physical reality. Religious people sometimes fall into the illogical hole of assuming that without God, spirituality cannot exist. But, that is merely an example of their small-mindedness. I know many atheists who are very spiritual.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Can an atheist can be spiritual?

If so, how? If not, why not?
Btw, I would say that spirituality is merely paying attention to what is beyond our physical experience. It is in no way limited to God or gods, as deities are not necessary for there to be more than the physical realm.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
It's true, it is difficult to say what part of a person is spirit and what part is mind. But once a spirit leaves the body all the minds in the world can't put it back. Jesus said "Ye are little gods" but we are not The God. Even gods have more than one meaning of god.
"Even gods have more than one meaning of god."....... Hmmmm........ now what could that mean? And how would you know such a thing? And what is a god's 'being', can you tell me that? Our being is flesh and blood, that's what we 'is', we know that. But if you're referring to the god of the Bible, who would come along and talk with Moses or someone, and yet disappear to parts unknown, what kind of a 'being' could do that?
"But once a spirit leaves the body all the minds in the world can't put it back." you said, but how would you know this. How does a spirit leave a body, what powers it? And where would it go? I'm having trouble conceptualizing what you are saying.
 
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corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
Btw, I would say that spirituality is merely paying attention to what is beyond our physical experience. It is in no way limited to God or gods, as deities are not necessary for there to be more than the physical realm.
Leibowde84 said "....as deities are not necessary for there to be more than the physical realm." And how would you know if there was more than the physical realm? What is necessary for there to be 'more' than the physical realm?
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
I think that so long as one pursues a sense of personal meaning and knowingly makes use of unprovable, sacred, fictional beliefs that offer a perspective transcendent of the apparent sense of truth rooted in the mundane reality of one's existence, then one is pursuing a spiritual truth.

The trick is that many atheists believe that truth should be a part of a self-consistent with reproducible experience rational system. But this is typically at odds with the spiritual attitude which...

1: Enjoys transcending rational and mundane experience sometimes referred to as an appreciation for immensity, power, beauty and even (rational) mystery
2: Has a personal problem to solve that may be described by a self-consistent rational system at odds with the subjective desire of the believer

The reality IMO is that there is much more of an irrational basis for our knowing than most atheists appreciate and they do not admit or willingly recognize the incompleteness and/or irrational axioms their views of the universe and their personal place in it involves.

I think it is true that we are all spiritual but that we may hide our sense of spirituality in various ways including intense interest in fantasy or sci-fi. For many their atheism is more a revolt against an oppressive and rationally de-valued theism. But the psyche is immensely irrational and also "alternately" rational to a point that I think a really good atheist has to either try really hard to be "honest" or not try (care) at all to be content with their stated position.

Sealchan..... Excellent post, you cover a lot of territory. But you seem to be saying 'yes an atheist could be spiritual if he did this and this, or believed this and that..' but isn't that the point? It seems to me that a strict atheist is rooted in reality and can't accept the 'notion' of a spirit without some basic reality, some 'being', behind the word. And I'm not so sure that there is so 'much more' of an irrational basis to knowing, isn't that the whole idea behind the scientific method,? Isn't our success in the world largely a product of knowing, rather than believing? And the psyche doesn't seem 'immensely' irrational, granted though, it seems immensely confused following the brainwashing given it from birth. Why would a mind 'choose' atheism if it were interested in the spiritual and such? I can appreciate the evolution of spirituality in humans, over the millennia, because there was so little knowing. But shouldn't knowing take the place of believing now that our minds have evolved to the state we now have? It's a very, very deep subject obviously.........
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Sealchan..... Excellent post, you cover a lot of territory. But you seem to be saying 'yes an atheist could be spiritual if he did this and this, or believed this and that..' but isn't that the point? It seems to me that a strict atheist is rooted in reality and can't accept the 'notion' of a spirit without some basic reality, some 'being', behind the word. And I'm not so sure that there is so 'much more' of an irrational basis to knowing, isn't that the whole idea behind the scientific method,? Isn't our success in the world largely a product of knowing, rather than believing? And the psyche doesn't seem 'immensely' irrational, granted though, it seems immensely confused following the brainwashing given it from birth. Why would a mind 'choose' atheism if it were interested in the spiritual and such? I can appreciate the evolution of spirituality in humans, over the millennia, because there was so little knowing. But shouldn't knowing take the place of believing now that our minds have evolved to the state we now have? It's a very, very deep subject obviously.........

You ask good questions and I can only say that my own faith is close to what some might label spiritual atheism and so I am trying to situate myself when I am speaking about all of this. I self-identify as a Christian but my epistemology is not typical of most Christians.

In a way analogous to how we might in certain cultural circles develop out of a childhood naive belief in Santa Claus and into a cooperative adult "conspiracy" to perpetuate the illusion of Santa Claus for the sake of a more intense experience of the power and value of giving and blessing, just so might we start with a naive belief in a fictional idea and grow into a more scientifically informed one.

The realm of irrationality is not one of non-sense but of disconnected facts and specific experiential certainties that we each individually accumulate through our life experience. There are so many options as far as what we concern ourselves with that we are often immersed in a wide world of arbitrarily chosen concerns. We develop our own personal interests and aptitudes based on what life provides to us as options sometimes under restrictive circumstances, sometimes under a wide field of opportunity.

Navigating this area of largely ambiguous choices is something we take for granted as our preferences and opportunities start with what we are given as children and only as we grow do we begin to perceive what other options might exist. But by then our biases have set in and we have a particular orientation that we are often more or less pleased to pursue. It is in this wide field of variability that we have to find our personal meaning and endure our suffering. But whether I am upset because I don't become a movie star or I find that my fame as a movie star is loosing its appeal, we have a spiritual problem on our hands that science may help us with but often doesn't have a clear rational solution for. We can reason about our logical options but finding the motivation to move forward is a challenge not for logic, but for the soul.

This dimension of human experience I believe is universal and calls for a marriage of the subjective incidental experience of the individual to be creatively united with the facts of their experience and the possibility latent in the world and the Universe in which the individual finds him or herself. This problem is, perhaps, acute for the atheist but sometimes buried by the believer in the pat answers of their traditional culture.

In this view whatsoever one finds one's passion to be one has at least occassionally to want to understand why they have this passion and what it means for them and others that they do. Sometimes they may have to justify to others why they should spend time and resources making themselves happy in this way. Sometimes that passion leads to activity that may impact the lives of others in a way that it is clear their personal interest and effort has a more universal meaning. Here lies the beginnings of a spiritual attitude.

One does not have to go in for any of the traditional beliefs in Gods or Universal Truths but one may resort to a simple sense of destiny even if it is not applied by a sentient creator. The demands of the tribe, the collective, somewhat force upon the individual an answer appropriate to that culture, a justification for his or her individual pursuits. A calling, a manifest destiny, a revelation...whatever.

When I watch the TV series Star Trek I am often reminded of certain beliefs and values that I hold as being deeply embedded in the moral and practical outlook of that shared universe first invented by Gene Roddenberry. I think about the faith in human morality and the challenges to it from the moral standards of other species, I think about how one should respond to circumstances in which one's life is on the line, I think about what kind of world I would like to live in and how I can personally contribute to that kind of world. I want Earth to really be a place in which a Federation of Planets might originate. All of these science fiction fantasies of mine serve as a spiritual meditation. The Star Trek episodes as sermons to consider. Some even gather at conferences and otherwise join in communities to further immerse themselves in this "sacred" landscape of story and fictional belief.

But this fiction is very useful for many who look for an ideal and an experience which puts them in touch with what they hold most valuable in life and morals and practices they want to put to the test of danger and conflict. As such fiction can be an excellent source for the spiritual experience. What a person might not find an opportunity for can be readily found in fictional encounters. The vicarious experience can lead to the courage to pursue an immediately personal one. And it is this play at stoking our courage and our resolve that is a deep part of our need for spiritual truth.

In fact fiction always has been a source for spiritual experiences in spite of any cultural developments which have tended to demote such a view. Many religions have undergone a sort of literary-spiritual death as they transitioned into cultural power hierarchies that lost sight of the creative tradition out of which their religions stories and visions originated. Dogma supplants personal experience in many cases. And this leaves the natural inclination to spirituality as having a bad taste in the mouth of those open to a more direct experience of truth.

So a big part of the distaste for the spiritual comes from the centuries of ownership that the old religions have claimed and their lack of adaptation to the living experience of humanity as it has moved on from one or two thousand years ago. We are still spiritual creatures who need fictions to help guide us. The visions, the dreams and the stories that call to us are our spiritual adventure.
 
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