Spiritual v. Religious?

[rational experiences]

Men kept the group support to be rich to own an equal place versus Rich destroyer men.

As a choice human tribal family had to make in history.

 

[loverofhumanity]

• Human history. Bahai is not the first nor the five hundred and first group of people bent upon world domination for The Greater Good (The Greater Good). Yes, yes, I know that you see yourselves as a benevolent force (again, not the first) that will sweep the world's population by popular acclaim. But seriously, have you met homo sapiens?
• I am part of humanity
  • I find some (not all) of your moral codes to be immoral and antithetical to human well-being.
  • I do not believe that any gods exist so I reject the source of both the source and validity of Baha'i authority.
  • I completely reject the concept of top-down moral authority (whether a god exists or not)
  • I am not unique.
• Every member of Baha'i is human and convinced of the God-given moral superiority of their cause. Add a little power to that combination for any group of humans, and it is a short greased slide into pogroms, purges, and purity tests.

I am sure that you think that speaking with one voice is a positive. But all it means is that your organization suppresses diversity.


Never gonna happen. Seriously, have you met homo sapiens?


Twaddle. The only thing that would be proof that Baha'i can unite humanity, would be a humanity united under Baha'i.

I personally have great faith in the goodness of people and that we are maturing to the point where we will abolish war and establish peace and unity.

People are tired of conflict and the costs associated with it and seek better quality of life. So I think that when things like free universal Medicare, education and a basic wage are offered, people will be happy to unite.

The Baha’i argument is that we don’t need war budgets but people do need food, clothing and shelter, medical attention and education. And so we join in the push for unity so countries will no longer require $trillion military budgets.

People will live happier and healthier lives if their basic needs are met.

 

[ppp]

Again, you are not responding as though you are in a conversation. You are merely delivering testimony. Or a litany. Or whatever the Baha'i term is.

It is almost as though you are delivering bullet points that you have learned by rote, and when someone replies directly to those points, you don't know what to say. So you just state another list of bullet points.

 

[rational experiences]

The theme a man wrote about old life as a thinker theist himself.

Wrote about what a human theist science pyramid temple builder had caused pretending they were beast headed gods.

Portrayed as men looking back pretending by a human mind as human only consciousness about a past. Where his human biology never lived in. Present.

Biology.

Yet the scientific actual thesis science design looking back was for architecture building concerning status science. How a mountain ∆ that arose became a volcano first

As it is theory after all about all things. Why his pyramid UFO attack tried to UFO O attack convert a mountain into a volcano.

It hit landed converted both forest wood and squared stone Into ballast. Melting the eye RA...ark. into Ararat mountain.

As he tried to give a mountain a volcano O beginning himself. What a lying human caused by not ever owning created creation.

Why mass of mountain disintegrated. Cloud image Satan angel burnt as cloud mass is seen melted etched into mountain by image. Clouds fell also.

What science of man caused pretending he had created the volcano as heavens gas beginnings.

Is the story how rich men bullies portrayed men by thoughts as gods had enslaved old first tribal families.

As a theist human said nothing space Was how a conversion of mass was enacted.

Hence mass in space he changed also.

His owned man's string memories said I caused UFO war on the gods. I once caused the black hole. I created caused it. By invention knowing he had why he is possessed by belief I can cause it again.

Yet his machine cannot convert by time shift earth mass into a Volcano.

His argument claiming hawkings wrong...I am theorising earths face mass and not gases owned beginnings. Yet in science he converts earths faces Alchemy into gases and lies.

All the pre existing stars like moon not planets burst in the history fell scattered.

It was a theists confession. I made stars fall. All about men of science as told by a new theists review.

I know as I got gas burnt irradiated feedback portrayed the message flying over earth's volcanic streams.

 

[rational experiences]

The theme a man wrote about old life as a thinker theist himself.

Wrote about what a human theist science pyramid temple builder had caused pretending they were beast headed gods.

Portrayed as men looking back pretending by a human mind as human only consciousness about a past. Where his human biology never lived in. Present.

Biology.

Yet the scientific actual thesis science design looking back was for architecture building concerning status science. How a mountain ∆ that arose became a volcano first

As it is theory after all about all things. Why his pyramid UFO attack tried to UFO O attack convert a mountain into a volcano.

It hit landed converted both forest wood and squared stone Into ballast. Melting the eye RA...ark. into Ararat mountain.

As he tried to give a mountain a volcano O beginning himself. What a lying human caused by not ever owning created creation.

Why mass of mountain disintegrated. Cloud image Satan angel burnt as cloud mass is seen melted etched into mountain by image. Clouds fell also.

What science of man caused pretending he had created the volcano as heavens gas beginnings.

Is the story how rich men bullies portrayed men by thoughts as gods had enslaved old first tribal families.

As a theist human said nothing space Was how a conversion of mass was enacted.

Hence mass in space he changed also.

His owned man's string memories said I caused UFO war on the gods. I once caused the black hole. I created caused it. By invention knowing he had why he is possessed by belief I can cause it again.

Yet his machine cannot convert by time shift earth mass into a Volcano.

His argument claiming hawkings wrong...I am theorising earths face mass and not gases owned beginnings. Yet in science he converts earths faces Alchemy into gases and lies.

All the pre existing stars like moon not planets burst in the history fell scattered.

It was a theists confession. I made stars fall. All about men of science as told by a new theists review.

I know as I got gas burnt irradiated feedback portrayed the message flying over earth's volcanic streams.

Father said take notice how evil human theists place threats in texts like bullets. When they could use other words altogether.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again, you are not responding as though you are in a conversation. You are merely delivering testimony. Or a litany. Or whatever the Baha'i term is.

It is almost as though you are delivering bullet points that you have learned by rote, and when someone replies directly to those points, you don't know what to say. So you just state another list of bullet points.

Policy you don’t quote anyone. Who are you addressing?

 

[ppp]

Policy you don’t quote anyone. Who are you addressing?

It was to you, but it doesn't matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again, you are not responding as though you are in a conversation. You are merely delivering testimony. Or a litany. Or whatever the Baha'i term is.

It is almost as though you are delivering bullet points that you have learned by rote, and when someone replies directly to those points, you don't know what to say. So you just state another list of bullet points.

I’m just responding to your questions and comments as best I can with as accurate information as possible. Sorry if that’s not adequate.

 

[rational experiences]

If men can think. You get born grow into a human man. Then apply choices by pre existing stated indoctrination.

Jesus knowingly a theme Roman man taught.

Next advice is not a Roman brother by DNA.

Yet the review owns a re taught applied theme by circumstance of earths owned heavenly changes.

Which the man does not own. Nor control.

Your thoughts scientific however impose a man's reasoning to reiterate man's advice.

For humans. About life continuance on earth the old topic. New topic. Reiterated topic.

By human men.

Do you own stars that wander and fall to earth as stars?

No.

Basic advice so why murder just a man born by sex for writing new advice is a basic human question?

Was it because he thought he was special or was it because men who claimed they were special didn't like his advice?

Also a basic human question.

If human brothers advice said a brother who idolised his brother as his brother a brother himself was self idolising then Jesus a brother story wasn't now being idolised.

As new information was now taught.

The human past living life story men who chose science also began science were life destroyers. Not Romans first were scientists first.

Answer. As the claim I own was never rational. As all a man owned was his own man life body presence. A human.

Equal in life to any type of body living or existing itself.

A long time ago men owned less human bodies hence less DNA presence.

Ice had melted cooled environment. Less animals also.

Seasonal ice cooling amassed presence of ice itself.

Man's psyche said once I was living in a hotter climate with less DNA than what I do today.

Ice can melt he says I will survive. Who cares if animals die.

Yet he is using man's own human memories about a man's life he once lived himself. In a natural.past as natural mans past life advice.

Why the topic human consciousness and it's science self possession was real.

 

[Truthseeker]

According to anthropology, they do have a beginning in time. Not all cultures have prophets. Shamans existed before the prophets, which only come on the scene in post-tribal, ethnic societies. Unless you mean to redefine prophets to mean shamans? But that wouldn't really fit our understanding of what prophets are and how they are different from shamans. Prophets are a very particular thing that you don't see historically until a certain age.

Are you meaning to say they existed in the ethereal realms, before the creation of the earth, like some sort of heavenly beings? That of course would be a purely religious belief in that case.

Each particular Prophet had no beginning according to our teachings, and also creation existed forever according to my understanding of the teachings, and on other planets they existed before this planet existed. The big bang was the beginning of this particular universe, to be sure, but what about other universes, the multiverse? The multiverse is my own individual reading of the situation. As you say this is a belief, but is one arrived at by looking to see if Baha'u'llah was a Prophet first independently of other influences as far as we can.

This is not my real point anyway. You can disregard this if you wish.

In which case, it is not necessary to accept the prophets in order to be spiritual? One does not need to believe in Bahaullah, or Mohamad, etc, in order to be spiritual? One can be "spiritual but not religious" is a true statement for you? Do you agree with all of these statements?

Yes, one can be spiritual, but not religious. I define religious as believing in a Prophet, not organized religion, as I have seen many define religion here. But there is great potential in spirituality in believing a Prophet. I stress the potentiality here. Too many people believe in a Prophet, but are not very spiritual at all. Believing in a Prophet is a guidepost to spirituality, and believe it or not there is a spiritual power in Baha'u'llah's revealed prayers. There is a power in His words.

If you are saying that you can't be spiritual unless you accept Bahaullah, that certainly is a religious dogma. You may claim its source is Divine, but folks like me do not accept that. Does that mean I am not spiritual according to the teachings you believe in? Is this something you believe with your heart as well?

I haven't been saying that you can't be spiritual if you don't accept Baha'u'llah. If I understand your last question correctly, you are asking if I believe in the Baha'i faith with my heart. I'm not sure. I wish it was more with my heart, but I am part way there, though only God can say how far I am on the path of believing with my heart.

 

[Truthseeker]

However, that said, there are certain basic principles one has to follow, such as honesty, truth, goodness, beauty, etc.. But following a particular prescribed religious dogma is not necessarily the best for everyone. In fact, being "spiritual but not religious" can result in far greater growth spiritually for many, because the religious dogma may be more of a hindrance than a help.

Those virtues you mention are the eternal part of religion that all Prophets advocate, and therefore, all religions. Religion for me, as I've tried to say, is what the Prophet says, not what dogma relatively ordinary men or women say it is.

There are different virtues and principles in each time and place that emphasized more than others, and also there are what we call social laws for each time and place, but those are to fit what each time and place needs. In our own individual lives, we are free the emphasize what virtues we want regardless of what the Prophets says, though there are consequences for breaking the social laws of the time, both spiritually and physically.

 

[ppp]

@loverofhumanity I was probably harsher than I needed to be. However, it is frustrating when someone raises a point and cannot or will not discuss it any more in-depth than the initial surface level assertion.
This is what I got out of your reply to my post:

• You have faith that the beliefs that you're religion professes are true.
• You think that people are tired of war in conflict.
• You think that war is bad and unnecessary.
• You think that people will be happier if their basic needs are met.
• That there is a push for unity for the Baha'i to join in.

None of which addresses any of my points. Including

• the historical weight against the practicality of unity.
• The historical precedence for inevitably becoming a purist theocracy and tyrannical oligarchy.
• The implicit othering of anyone who does not defer to a theocratic government which believes that they have a mandate from God.
• The condescending paternalism endemic to the Abrahamic religions, and the resulting insistence on conformity to doctrine.
• The inability to admit to that said doctrine can be unequivocally incorrect and immoral.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity I was probably harsher than I needed to be. However, it is frustrating when someone raises a point and cannot or will not discuss it any more in-depth than the initial surface level assertion.
This is what I got out of your reply to my post:

• You have faith that the beliefs that you're religion professes are true.
• You think that people are tired of war in conflict.
• You think that war is bad and unnecessary.
• You think that people will be happier if their basic needs are met.
• That there is a push for unity for the Baha'i to join in.

None of which addresses any of my points. Including

• the historical weight against the practicality of unity.
• The historical precedence for inevitably becoming a purist theocracy and tyrannical oligarchy.
• The implicit othering of anyone who does not defer to a theocratic government which believes that they have a mandate from God.
• The condescending paternalism endemic to the Abrahamic religions, and the resulting insistence on conformity to doctrine.
• The inability to admit to that said doctrine can be unequivocally incorrect and immoral.

Please feel most welcome to be as critical and harsh as you feel the need to be. When I was investigating the Baha’is I was extremely harsh and very, very critical. So don’t hold back!

1. The historical evidence of unity is that on every level of humanity’s progress it has been successfully achieved. History proves and attests to this.

Evidence : Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established.

Then why not world unity which is the next stage in our evolution?

2. That is speculative and although true of past theocracies, the Baha’i System and how it is to function has been included in scripture which no religious system has been to date. The papacy, the caliphs and others were not ordained by either Christ or Muhammad but self appointed. The Baha’i Faith also has abolished priesthood, so there is no individual in its system with any power. All authority rests with democratically elected bodies.

3. The Baha’i System is for Baha’is only. It is not a form of world government. It promotes the oneness of all humanity which includes everyone no matter which belief, race, nationality or lifestyle.

4. Being a Baha’i is voluntary and the door is open to freely leave should one wish to do so. Baha’is obey more from love than fear because they love their religion. Both my wife and myself have been Baha’is for over 45 years and we have never been harassed or condescended by any kind of paternalism. We serve freely, donate freely and never ever have we experienced what you refer to. So I have no idea what you mean.

5. Coming from God of course I believe the Baha’i laws and teachings to be both moral and correct. To me God, Who created us, knows best what is moral and what is not. You don’t believe in God so you may contend but that is your journey.

My investigation tells me I shall never be worthy of having been welcomed into such a beautiful religion. I would not exchange this gift for all the treasures in the universe. Although I was opposed to it Baha’u’llah opened my spiritual eyes and now I see just how wonderful it is.

I’m sorry that your mindset is so fixed against Baha’i but once I was the same then only to become an avowed supporter and upholder of this glorious religion.

 

[ppp]

1. The historical evidence of unity is that on every level of humanity’s progress it has been successfully achieved. History proves and attests to this. Evidence : Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established. Then why not world unity which is the next stage in our evolution?

Unity has not been successfully achieved on every level of humanity's progress. Evidence: Racists and racist systems. Anti-vaxxers. Anti-science. Anti-choice. Insurrections sponsored by government officials. And the denial that any of those things are a problem.

2. That is speculative and although true of past theocracies, the Baha’i System and how it is to function has been included in scripture which no religious system has been to date. The papacy, the caliphs and others were not ordained by either Christ or Muhammad but self appointed. The Baha’i Faith also has abolished priesthood, so there is no individual in its system with any power. All authority rests with democratically elected bodies.

You appealed to historical trends in your first point as evidence, but when I cite well documented historical human behavior you dismiss it as speculative? I reject your hypocritical double standard.

3. The Baha’i System is for Baha’is only. It is not a form of world government. It promotes the oneness of all humanity which includes everyone no matter which belief, race, nationality or lifestyle.

Not only will the present-day Spiritual Assemblies be styled differently in future, but they will be enabled 7 also to add to their present functions those powers, duties, and prerogatives necessitated by the recognition of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, not merely as one of the recognized religious systems of the world, but as the State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power. And as the Bahá’í Faith permeates the masses of the peoples of East and West, and its truth is embraced by the majority of the peoples of a number of the Sovereign States of the world, will the Universal House of Justice attain the plenitude of its power, and exercise, as the supreme organ of the Bahá’í Commonwealth, all the rights, the duties, and responsibilities incumbent upon the world’s future super-state.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 5-7

Definitely a world government

4. Being a Baha’i is voluntary and the door is open to freely leave should one wish to do so. Baha’is obey more from love than fear because they love their religion.

I do not doubt that you love your religion.

Both my wife and myself have been Baha’is for over 45 years and we have never been harassed or condescended by any kind of paternalism. We serve freely, donate freely and never ever have we experienced what you refer to. So I have no idea what you mean.

I hear the 'when you have ascended to our spiritual level guru-on-top-of-the-mountain paternalistic jargon' from Baha'i all the time. I muted Tony because that is all he does. But not to single y'all out, I hear it from people of many traditions, including the one I was born into, I even delivered the line a few times, much to my shame.

5. Coming from God of course I believe the Baha’i laws and teachings to be both moral and correct. To me God, Who created us, knows best what is moral and what is not. You don’t believe in God so you may contend but that is your journey.

Belief in God has nothing to do with it. I would have contended back when I believes in God as well. I see noting about being a creator that would necessitate that creator being moral.

I’m sorry that your mindset is so fixed against Baha’i but once I was the same then only to become an avowed supporter and upholder of this glorious religion.

I am sure that you have family and friends who don't share a few of your moral views. Would you characterize yourself as having your mindset so fixed against them? Merely for disagreement? That seems a little over the top to me. But hey maybe that is just me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Unity has not been successfully achieved on every level of humanity's progress. Evidence: Racists and racist systems. Anti-vaxxers. Anti-science. Anti-choice. Insurrections sponsored by government officials. And the denial that any of those things are a problem.


You appealed to historical trends in your first point as evidence, but when I cite well documented historical human behavior you dismiss it as speculative? I reject your hypocritical double standard.


Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 5-7

Definitely a world government


I do not doubt that you love your religion.

I hear the 'when you have ascended to our spiritual level guru-on-top-of-the-mountain paternalistic jargon' from Baha'i all the time. I muted Tony because that is all he does. But not to single y'all out, I hear it from people of many traditions, including the one I was born into, I even delivered the line a few times, much to my shame.


Belief in God has nothing to do with it. I would have contended back when I believes in God as well. I see noting about being a creator that would necessitate that creator being moral.




I am sure that you have family and friends who don't share a few of your moral views. Would you characterize yourself as having your mindset so fixed against them? Merely for disagreement? That seems a little over the top to me. But hey maybe that is just me.

I don’t want to have to go over this again and again. But the family unit has been achieved. So has the tribe, city state and nation. These are proofs we can unite. We haven’t achieved race unity but we will. We once used to be scattered tribes and fiefdoms now we are fully fledged nations with constitutions. To deny this progress is to deny history. And then there are further signs of unity with groups of nations forming blocks such as African and Asean etc and the UN. The world is headed in the direction of world solidarity. Nation building was once thought of as unachievable but now it’s a given fact. Evolution has been towards unity not away from it.

As I said before, the Baha’i System is for Baha’is not non Baha’is. And it says that in the quote you posted which clearly reads “And as the Bahá’í Faith permeates the masses of the peoples of East and West, and its truth is embraced by the majority of the peoples of a number of the Sovereign States of the world,”. This is speaking about a time when the majority of people will have accepted the Baha’i Faith so the House of Justice is still the system for those who have accepted the religion. Baha’i laws do not apply to non Baha’is.

Human behaviour under systems with priests and clergy is very different from how we operate which is on the principle of consultation by majority vote at the local, national and international level. Also, no person is permitted to interpret. That is, there is no interpretative system within the Baha’i system which has led other religions to divide into tens of thousands of sects.

We are just ordinary people who are working for the betterment of the world which can best be achieved through virtuous deeds and good character.

 

[ppp]

I don’t want to have to go over this again and again. But the family unit has been achieved. So has the tribe, city state and nation. These are proofs we can unite.

No. You appealed to historical trends in your first point as evidence, but when I cited well documented historical human behavior you dismiss it as speculative? I reject your double standard.. I do not appreciate such deceitful tactics, nor do I respect the fact that you are entirely content to pretend that you never did it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. You appealed to historical trends in your first point as evidence, but when I cited well documented historical human behavior you dismiss it as speculative? I reject your double standard.. I do not appreciate such deceitful tactics, nor do I respect the fact that you are entirely content to pretend that you never did it.

Which point are you referring to the unity one or the Baha’i system one? I’m being honest and sorry you are not happy with my answers. I’m not expert at posting so I hope you can be patient with me or just block me if you feel I’m deceiving you. But I assure you that’s not the case.

I mentioned that humanity has been on an evolutionary trend towards world solidarity. Just because prejudices still exist doesn’t mean we cannot unite. The world will establish I believe, a world parliament even though things like racism and religious hatreds will still exist. The existence of the Baha’i World Community is just another proof unity can and will be established despite the historical human behaviour you rightfully mention. This behaviour you refer to I believe is, in this age, changing.

Another concept is that humanity is organic. We have passed through the stages of infancy, childhood and adolescence and are now approaching maturity which is the age of peace and unity. That’s what we believe, that humanity evolves not remains stagnant and through education, we believe, eventually we will abandon war and establish peace.

To maintain humanity has not progressed and it’s behaviour will always be violent and aggressive is inaccurate when we consider the push towards an end to racism. Interfaith movement, cooperation between groups of nations, the UN, the status of women. Despite some groups like terrorists seeking to take us back to the time of the caliphs, modern day man is striving to unite and become a collaborative species.

Baha’is say that there are two processes underway in the world at the moment. One is a destructive process tearing down beliefs and barriers which have caused our wars, prejudices and hatreds and a constructive process which we witness in various forms of world solidarity.

So if you unfortunately see only the destructive element, the death of the old ways and the opposition to it from extremist groups like terrorists, racists and supremists then you are half correct. But the other process of world solidarity is there promoting things like equality and human rights, status of women etc.

Both are valid and both processes exist. What Baha’is believe is that the innate goodness in humanity will, in the end prevail not our darker side which we do possess.

 

[ppp]

Which point are you referring to the unity one or the Baha’i system one? I’m being honest and sorry you are not happy with my answers. I’m not expert at posting so I hope you can be patient with me or just block me if you feel I’m deceiving you. But I assure you that’s not the case.

Go back two or three posts and I'm sure you will find it. Look for where you said speculative

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. You appealed to historical trends in your first point as evidence, but when I cited well documented historical human behavior you dismiss it as speculative? I reject your double standard.. I do not appreciate such deceitful tactics, nor do I respect the fact that you are entirely content to pretend that you never did it.

This might throw some light on the topic of behaviour you speak of. It is not denied but instead reinterpreted. You seem to be saying that man’s past proves we cannot have peace or unity. It’s a commonly held view but not necessarily true for all time.


Indeed, so much have aggression and conflict come to characterize our social, economic and religious systems, that many have succumbed to the view that such behaviour is intrinsic to human nature and therefore ineradicable.

With the entrenchment of this view, a paralyzing contradiction has developed in human affairs. On the one hand, people of all nations proclaim not only their readiness but their longing for peace and harmony, for an end to the harrowing apprehensions tormenting their daily lives. On the other, uncritical assent is given to the proposition that human beings are incorrigibly selfish and aggressive and thus incapable of erecting a social system at once progressive and peaceful, dynamic and harmonious, a system giving free play to individual creativity and initiative but based on co-operation and reciprocity.


As the need for peace becomes more urgent, this fundamental contradiction, which hinders its realization, demands a reassessment of the assumptions upon which the commonly held view of mankind’s historical predicament is based. Dispassionately examined, the evidence reveals that such conduct, far from expressing man’s true self, represents a distortion of the human spirit. Satisfaction on this point will enable all people to set in motion constructive social forces which, because they are consistent with human nature, will encourage harmony and co-operation instead of war and conflict.


To choose such a course is not to deny humanity’s past but to understand it. The Bahá’í Faith regards the current world confusion and calamitous condition in human affairs as a natural phase in an organic process leading ultimately and irresistibly to the unification of the human race in a single social order whose boundaries are those of the planet.


The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

 

[loverofhumanity]

Go back two or three posts and I'm sure you will find it. Look for where you said speculative

I meant speculative regarding the Baha’i system being oppressive like the theocracies of the past. I don’t deny past so called theocracies were very oppressive just that their mandate was not given by scripture or God but, self appointed so in that sense they were not true theocracies and that’s why they dismally failed.

With the Baha’i System, this is the very first time in human history that a Prophet has brought a system of governance and delineated it’s functions (consultative, democratically elected) and conferred upon it infallibility in His Holy Book.

So we need to wait and see I believe. But I am confident that because the Baha’i System has been so to speak revealed by God, it will not become corrupt, oppressive or fail as the others which were man made. There is a huge difference although you don’t believe in God.