Spiritual v. Religious?

[ppp]

To us they are virtues. But I’m interested in what you refer to as the four metrics. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Empathy. Equity. Reciprocity. Cooperation. The metrics of morality in social animals. Social animals recognize each other as being like in the way that members of no other species are. What is fair or equitable differs amongst species, but social species have a sense of fairness. They reciprocate actions and attitudes. And they cooperate with one another. These are the characteristics that allow a species to be successfully social.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Manifestations of God, Their Lives and Teachings are proof enough

No great beings for me. All human, even Buddha. The less I talk about the monotheist prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis, the better is it.

 

[lukethethird]

But have humans been able to stop wars, genocide, war crimes, suicides, drug addiction, domestic violence, world poverty, the environment, child sexual abuse, terrorism, provide justice and human rights for all?

So being just human we had two major wars millions killed and a Holocaust more millions killed. So being human and turning away from God’s Teachers what’s that ever done for us?

God says to love each other we hate. God says to unite we divide and put nukes on ever corner. So can humans be trusted? Where is world peace? Where is an end to poverty? We say or claim we don’t need God’s guidance then we watch as our world is falling apart. Humans are in charge so it’s humans fault and responsibility to stop running away but fix these problems.

But where is the mercy and compassion of us humans? We protest in the millions for same sex marriage but when genocide is committed we couldn’t give a damn. So I’d say we are in very urgent need of turning to God and becoming truly human and caring not so much about our sexual preferences than about the well-being of our fellow human being who cries help! Help! And we humans just turn our backs and continue on our merry way to fight for trivial things like sexual preferences.

It sounds like believing in God is the problem.

 

[ppp]

But have humans been able to stop wars, provide justice and human rights for all?

So being just human we had two major wars millions killed and a Holocaust more millions killed. So being human and turning away from God’s Teachers what’s that ever done for us?

God says to love each other we hate. God says to unite we divide and put nukes on ever corner. So can humans be trusted? Where is world peace? Where is an end to poverty? We say or claim we don’t need God’s guidance then we watch as our world is falling apart. Humans are in charge so it’s humans fault and responsibility to stop running away but fix these problems.

But where is the mercy and compassion of us humans? We protest in the millions for same sex marriage but when genocide is committed we couldn’t give a damn. So I’d say we are in very urgent need of turning to God and becoming truly human and caring not so much about our sexual preferences than about the well-being of our fellow human being who cries help! Help! And we humans just turn our backs and continue on our merry way to fight for trivial things like sexual preferences.

I see no evidence that beliefs in a god is not one of the causes of genocide, war crimes, suicides, drug addiction, domestic violence, world poverty, the environment, child sexual abuse, terrorism, slavery, subjugation of women and prejudice against LGBTQ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It sounds like believing in God is the problem.

Which of God’s plans or advice have we been following? None. It’s all humans making up things as we go. This proves human beings haven’t got a clue how to fix these problems and need help.

 

[lukethethird]

Which of God’s plans or advice have we been following? None. It’s all humans making up things as we go. This proves human beings haven’t got a clue how to fix these problems and need help.

God beliefs are primitive and tribal, they cause problems and help in bringing about wars.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see no evidence that beliefs in a god is not one of the causes of genocide, war crimes, suicides, drug addiction, domestic violence, world poverty, the environment, child sexual abuse, terrorism, slavery, subjugation of women and prejudice against LGBTQ.

The point I’m trying to make is that humanity and it’s governments and peoples are following their own plans not God’s. It is lack of true religion which is to love and care for all which is the cause of these problems. Outward belief in just words is not true religion.

 

[ppp]

The point I’m trying to make is that humanity and it’s governments and peoples are following their own plans not God’s. It is lack of true religion which is to love and care for all which is the cause of these problems. Outward belief in just words is not true religion.

I understood that. The point that I'm trying to make is that I don't see a reason to attach 'to love and care' for all to religion. Any religion, true or otherwise.

I would also point out that people do some pretty heinous things out of their honest and sincere attempt to exercise love.

 

[loverofhumanity]

God beliefs are primitive and tribal, they cause problems and help in bringing about wars.

Let’s be factual with this topic. It’s a cliche that religion causes war but the majority of wars throughout history have had nothing to do with religion.

This is a very interesting article by an atheist showing the closed mindedness of fellow atheists and agnostics even scientists.

For a breed that just loves evidence and science, the New Atheists (and frankly most scientists) are just as good at wilfully ignoring what’s right in front of their noses as everybody else. Especially, if it does not fit their grand narrative. New Atheists claim religion causes wars and suffering and will go as far (in offhand moments) to say things like “most wars were caused by religion”. But that’s so patently untrue, it took this old atheist only five minutes of reflection, 10 minutes of research (and admittedly years of peripheral study of history) to completely disprove.

Guns, Glory, and Greed: Most wars were not caused by religion (but they weren’t prevented by it…

 

[ppp]

Let’s be factual with this topic. It’s a cliche that religion causes war but the majority of wars throughout history have had nothing to do with religion.

I don't know how you would go about determining that. Now if you said that the majority of wars were not primarily about religion, I would not be surprised. I suspect that the majority of wars are primarily about resources. But to say that even those had nothing to do with religion is a stretch.

But even if it were true, if any religion caused wars (and all of the major religions have been the direct and undisputed cause of multiple wars) then the statement "religions cause wars" is a true statement.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I understood that. The point that I'm trying to make is that I don't see a reason to attach 'to love and care' for all to religion. Any religion, true or otherwise.

I would also point out that people do some pretty heinous things out of their honest and sincere attempt to exercise love.

Love of men is limited so for example love of one’s nation can mean hatred towards people of another country resulting in war.

But the love which is born of God is love not based upon race, nationality or clan etc. The love of man is limited so we see for example, people in Myanmar are crying help us please help us but their fellow humans are ignoring them because their love is limited not universal.

However, Baha’u’llah has brought the remedy for these ills which is love for all humanity. When this unlimited universal love becomes universally practised, humanity will then be healed and much suffering will disappear.

A wonderful example is that until Baha’u’llah appeared never in human history was there a religious law to love other faiths and religions. Now He has made it law. These teachings will create unity between the religions.

O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.

If you examine the architecture of Baha’i Houses of Worship, you will discover the religious symbols of all the religions engraved in stone such as the cross, the sun and moon, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist wheel etc. Also each week in the service they read from the scriptures of all religions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't know how you would go about determining that. Now if you said that the majority of wars were not primarily about religion, I would not be surprised. I suspect that the majority of wars are primarily about resources. But to say that even those had nothing to do with religion is a stretch.

But even if it were true, if any religion caused wars (and all of the major religions have been the direct and undisputed cause of multiple wars) then the statement "religions cause wars" is a true statement.

My understanding is that disobedience to the laws of God causes wars, hatred etc. No Prophet of God commanded His followers to kill and conquer so the wars attributed to religion throughout history are in fact committed in disobedience to religion as it teaches love and brotherhood.

So the crusades, the inquisition, the papal wars, the caliphs and the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with Christ, Muhammad, the Gospels or the Quran which forbid the taking of life and aggression. It was disobedience to their own religion that caused all these wars. Christ said to love one’s enemies and Muhammad said to return good for evil. Buddha said to conquer hate with love. So it’s a myth that religion causes or teaches war. Evil people use religion for evil purposes.

Matthew 26. 52-53

But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Quran 2:190

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

 

[ppp]

My understanding is that disobedience to the laws of God causes wars, hatred etc. No Prophet of God commanded His followers to kill and conquer so the wars attributed to religion throughout history are in fact committed in disobedience to religion as it teaches love and brotherhood.

My understanding is that none of that is true. Are you cherry picking Christian and Islamic sacred text? I think you may be.

So the crusades, the inquisition, the papal wars, the caliphs and the siege of Jerusalem had nothing to do with Christ, Muhammad, the Gospels or the Quran which forbid the taking of life and aggression. It was disobedience to their own religion that caused all these wars. Christ said to love one’s enemies and Muhammad said to return good for evil. Buddha said to conquer hate with love. So it’s a myth that religion causes or teaches war. Evil people use religion for evil purposes.

Only if you ignore most of the books. AKA Cherry picking. Christ says to kill all of the midianites even the little boys. But the girls who have not known a man you may keep for yourself. Christ also said that chattel slavery is okay as long as it's not practiced on your fellow Hebrews.

 

[lukethethird]

Let’s be factual with this topic. It’s a cliche that religion causes war but the majority of wars throughout history have had nothing to do with religion.

This is a very interesting article by an atheist showing the closed mindedness of fellow atheists and agnostics even scientists.

For a breed that just loves evidence and science, the New Atheists (and frankly most scientists) are just as good at wilfully ignoring what’s right in front of their noses as everybody else. Especially, if it does not fit their grand narrative. New Atheists claim religion causes wars and suffering and will go as far (in offhand moments) to say things like “most wars were caused by religion”. But that’s so patently untrue, it took this old atheist only five minutes of reflection, 10 minutes of research (and admittedly years of peripheral study of history) to completely disprove.

Guns, Glory, and Greed: Most wars were not caused by religion (but they weren’t prevented by it…

Religion is a catalyst for war, not necessarily a cause. It would be harder to start a war without religion considering all the rhetoric leading up to a war or invasion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Religion is a catalyst for war, not necessarily a cause. It would be harder to start a war without religion considering all the rhetoric leading up to a war or invasion.

My argument is that religion as taught by the Prophets cannot be a cause of war. Only by disobedience to the laws of religion can wars be started but then the war is in reality being fought independently of religion not because of it.

Let’s say for example religion is clear and pure water. But the caliphs were poisoned water. Both look the same outwardly but they are totally different to the discerning mind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My understanding is that none of that is true. Are you cherry picking Christian and Islamic sacred text? I think you may be.

Only if you ignore most of the books. AKA Cherry picking. Christ says to kill all of the midianites even the little boys. But the girls who have not known a man you may keep for yourself. Christ also said that chattel slavery is okay as long as it's not practiced on your fellow Hebrews.

No. I only used those passages because I know them by heart. But Buddha said to fight hatred with love, Baha’i Faith says to fight a thought of war with a stronger thought of peace, Zoroastrian teachings teach good thoughts, good words, good deeds and Hinduism teaches Ahimsa to do no harm. There’s many more but too lengthy and time consuming so I shortened it for the sake of brevity.

It was Moses not Christ which was told to go to war with the Medinites in Numbers. We cannot judge wars fought in ancient times by the moral standards of today because the situation then was different in a different environment without facilities such as prisons, courts, police judges etc. Wars fought in the Bible were always defensive in that the Israelis had been continually attacked then were told to retaliate. In the case of the Amalekites it was 500 years of being attacked after which they were instructed to fight. It’s the same with Muslims. After 13 years of persecution God told them to fight for their right to freedom of belief.

God is loving but just also and will not allow persecution to go on endlessly but He is patient.

If you examine closely, you will find that in every instance where God has commanded to fight, it has been to prevent genocide. When the Meccans sought to exterminate Islam, Muslims were commanded to defend themselves. Same with the Israelites.

Toward the close of the forty years’ wandering of the children of Israel in the wilderness, the Midianites were allied with the Moabites in the attempt to exterminate the Israelites. For this reason Moses was ordered by God to punish the Midianites.

What did the Midianites do to the Israelites? – SidmartinBio

Slavery was not introduced by God but existed since time began. It’s eradication has taken 2,000 years and all that has been done since then is to gradually abolish it. Christ says that one cannot serve two masters meaning God and man. This was a reference to following God nothing to do with slavery.

 

[lukethethird]

My argument is that religion as taught by the Prophets cannot be a cause of war. Only by disobedience to the laws of religion can wars be started but then the war is in reality being fought independently of religion not because of it.

Let’s say for example religion is clear and pure water. But the caliphs were poisoned water. Both look the same outwardly but they are totally different to the discerning mind.

A common theme running through the Abrahamic religions is good vs evil played out in everyday life and on the battle field.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A common theme running through the Abrahamic religions is good vs evil played out in everyday life and on the battle field.

It also runs through the Bhagavad-Gita as well. I think we find in almost all religions the concept of a just war as God is not only a God of love but of justice. In the Baha’i Faith also it teaches that the world should unite and bring oppressors to justice. But like Buddhism, Baha’i teachings say it is better to be killed than to kill. But when a Hitler arises, we have no choice in the matter.

Bhagavad-Gita ch2: 33

If you will not fight this righteous war,
Then you will fail in your duty,
Lose your reputation, and incur sin.

 

[ppp]

No. I only used those passages because I know them by heart.

I acknowledge the good passages. But your citing the good passages does not excuse the bad. You do understand that, right? Right?!

It was Moses not Christ which was told to go to war with the Medinites in Numbers.

It was God who gave the orders to Moses. So yes, it was indeed Christ that gave the orders to Moses.

We cannot judge wars fought in ancient times by the moral standards of today because the situation then was different in a different environment without facilities such as prisons, courts, police judges etc.

We? Who is we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Because I can judge. And I do. Situations only matter if It is only humans trying to cope. But a presumably more God knew better. Which means that God intentionally committed genocide (again) and sent those girls into sexual slavery. Imagine if the next subdivision came over to your subdivision. Killed all the men and women and children except for the girls under 14. Then took them back to their subdivision and made them their "wives". That is the passage that you are trying to defend.

In the case of the Amalekites it was 500 years of being attacked after which they were instructed to fight.

Even if that were the case, that is not an excuse to kill the non-combatants. Non-combatants. I repeat, that is not an excuse to kill the non combatants. Do I need to repeat that again? That is not an excuse to kill the non-combatants.

God is loving but just also and will not allow persecution to go on endlessly but He is patient.

Yet, if he existed, then he has allowed rape and slavery and murder and torture and misogyny to go on for 200 million years. And that is just in our subspecies of human. Hell, lover of humanity, in numbers God ordered the rape and slavery and murder and torture and misogyny.

You can say that God is loving all day and all night, but I'm not interested in the words. I'm interested in the deeds. And the deeds don't agree with your words.

Slavery was not introduced by God but existed since time began.

Irrelevant. If I order or allow or condone slavery then it doesn't matter who started slavery. I am still guilty of being a party to slavery. God both condones and advocates for slavery in the Bible. Therefore, God is guilty of being a party to slavery.

It’s eradication has taken 2,000 years and all that has been done since then is to gradually abolish it.

Probably more than 10,000 years. A little more than 1900 years of which included Christians fully and knowingly participating in the institution of slavery fully supported by Christian teachings.

Christ says that one cannot serve two masters meaning God and man. This was a reference to following God nothing to do with slavery.

I did not bring up that quote at all nor did I say that was a reference to do with slavery. I have no idea why you are bringing it up. But It has nothing to do with any point that I've raised.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I acknowledge the good passages. But your citing the good passages does not excuse the bad. You do understand that, right? Right?!

It was God who gave the orders to Moses. So yes, it was indeed Christ that gave the orders to Moses.

We? Who is we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Because I can judge. And I do. Situations only matter if It is only humans trying to cope. But a presumably more God knew better. Which means that God intentionally committed genocide (again) and sent those girls into sexual slavery. Imagine if the next subdivision came over to your subdivision. Killed all the men and women and children except for the girls under 14. Then took them back to their subdivision and made them their "wives". That is the passage that you are trying to defend.

Even if that were the case, that is not an excuse to kill the non-combatants. Non-combatants. I repeat, that is not an excuse to kill the non combatants. Do I need to repeat that again? That is not an excuse to kill the non-combatants.


Yet, if he existed, then he has allowed rape and slavery and murder and torture and misogyny to go on for 200 million years. And that is just in our subspecies of human. Hell, lover of humanity, in numbers God ordered the rape and slavery and murder and torture and misogyny.

You can say that God is loving all day and all night, but I'm not interested in the words. I'm interested in the deeds. And the deeds don't agree with your words.


Irrelevant. If I order or allow or condone slavery then it doesn't matter who started slavery. I am still guilty of being a party to slavery. God both condones and advocates for slavery in the Bible. Therefore, God is guilty of being a party to slavery.


Probably more than 10,000 years. A little more than 1900 years of which included Christians fully and knowingly participating in the institution of slavery fully supported by Christian teachings.


I did not bring up that quote at all nor did I say that was a reference to do with slavery. I have no idea why you are bringing it up. But It has nothing to do with any point that I've raised.

So it’s ok for the Israelites to be wiped out? God would know the situation better than anyone.