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Spontaneous Knotting of an Agitated String

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's the paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/42/16432.full

This is one of my favorite science items which wins a 2001 'Ignoble' prize in the Physics category. Although it is the subject of a lot of laughter, I feel it makes some important points. Intelligence is not required to knot a string, and anything long and flexible such as thread, wire, DNA etc will knot simply if it is in a confined space and shaken. It combines two initially symmetric things into a less symmetric one. No one has to add information to the string or direct it.

This has parallels in many other life experiences and affects many other kinds of lines, such as friendship lines, the timelines of our pasts, the air currents (which are like lines). Every kind of string tangles by itself, and that has implications for the beginning of life, too. Any particles kept together tend to entangle. Any people kept together entangle.

Any process that occurs in the presence of another process is not independent but is entangled with the other process. If there is randomness in nature, than it affects everything as every process is entangled with every other process in proximity. No system on Earth is isolated from every other system. We've seen this many ways, such as in the ecosystems and natural rhythms. Everything is tied together naturally and effortlessly.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
:) So ....if you agitate a string which is just minding its own business it will do something spontaneously.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, I know from experience that long things will form complex knots.
Goll darn rassin frassin goobernecken poo bedecken gaddle snaddled bungee cords!
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Yes, I know from experience that long things will form complex knots.
Goll darn rassin frassin goobernecken poo bedecken gaddle snaddled bungee cords!
Electrical extension cords do it all the time, and they don't even have to be agitated. On the other hand, shoe laces have a propensity to unknot themselves, but never knot or re-knot.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Electrical extension cords do it all the time, and they don't even have to be agitated. On the other hand, shoe laces have a propensity to unknot themselves, but never knot or re-knot.
Aye, & when you store ropes in a chain stitch fashion, after a while the re-knot themselves such they cannot be just pulled easily apart.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Here's the paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/42/16432.full

This is one of my favorite science items which wins a 2001 'Ignoble' prize in the Physics category. Although it is the subject of a lot of laughter, I feel it makes some important points. Intelligence is not required to knot a string, and anything long and flexible such as thread, wire, DNA etc will knot simply if it is in a confined space and shaken. It combines two initially symmetric things into a less symmetric one. No one has to add information to the string or direct it.

This has parallels in many other life experiences and affects many other kinds of lines, such as friendship lines, the timelines of our pasts, the air currents (which are like lines). Every kind of string tangles by itself, and that has implications for the beginning of life, too. Any particles kept together tend to entangle. Any people kept together entangle.

Any process that occurs in the presence of another process is not independent but is entangled with the other process. If there is randomness in nature, than it affects everything as every process is entangled with every other process in proximity. No system on Earth is isolated from every other system. We've seen this many ways, such as in the ecosystems and natural rhythms. Everything is tied together naturally and effortlessly.

As far as I know the basic knotted structure of DNA is not a result of randomness, but is mathematically ordered. If the DNA is "stretched" it will reknot in the exact same way as before.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
it's also been proven that when you want to find an end, you can't.
I have much *^#&^%$ experimental evidence of this.

Absolutely
At one time I made spinning wheels and looms and taught hand spinning. An end of yarn lost on a bobbin when the thread breaks and is wound on, can be lost for ever.... the yarn becomes vanishingly thin and vanishes.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As far as I know the basic knotted structure of DNA is not a result of randomness, but is mathematically ordered. If the DNA is "stretched" it will reknot in the exact same way as before.
More like a very long spring than a string then? I think of it as having crystalline properties in addition to fibrous. There was recently a Nobel price in the news where some scientists discovered some of the repair mechanisms that repair the DNA in each cell when it is damaged. Let me see if I can find it....http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/popular-chemistryprize2015.pdf

These guys really worked hard to figure this out. One of them in particular Aziz Sincar had a really hard time getting his work recognized until finally someone noticed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Evangelical scientists have recently postulated that this phenomenon is actually intelligent knotting.
Quoting lead scientist, Dudley Slimrod (PhD in applied scripture at Jim Baker University)....
"Things knot not because they are acted upon by some knotting force, but because a higher intelligence guides the process."
God is creating the knots for divine reasons."
 

Town Heretic

Temporarily out of order
Yes, I know from experience that long things will form complex knots.
Goll darn rassin frassin goobernecken poo bedecken gaddle snaddled bungee cords!
You poor, delusional knotters...I was once bound as you are, a slave to one string theory or another, but now I'm detangled... In fact, I'm so completely over it that I plan on spending many an hour here talking about how over it I am and ridiculing twiners who insist on stringing others along.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Here's the paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/42/16432.full

This is one of my favorite science items which wins a 2001 'Ignoble' prize in the Physics category. Although it is the subject of a lot of laughter, I feel it makes some important points. Intelligence is not required to knot a string, and anything long and flexible such as thread, wire, DNA etc will knot simply if it is in a confined space and shaken. It combines two initially symmetric things into a less symmetric one. No one has to add information to the string or direct it.

This has parallels in many other life experiences and affects many other kinds of lines, such as friendship lines, the timelines of our pasts, the air currents (which are like lines). Every kind of string tangles by itself, and that has implications for the beginning of life, too. Any particles kept together tend to entangle. Any people kept together entangle.

Any process that occurs in the presence of another process is not independent but is entangled with the other process. If there is randomness in nature, than it affects everything as every process is entangled with every other process in proximity. No system on Earth is isolated from every other system. We've seen this many ways, such as in the ecosystems and natural rhythms. Everything is tied together naturally and effortlessly.
As my old boss used to put it, "Things screw up all by themselves."
 
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