State of the Dead

[shmogie]

You do error, there is no spirit in a hole in the ground. At the minute, you take your last breath of air, your spirit returns back to God who gave it.

Your body of flesh returns back to dust.
As it is written in
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, And the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Therefore your spirit is not in a hole in the ground, but returns back to God who gave it.

Please define spirit

 

[Clear]

1) Regarding John 5:28

Christ's teaching about those in their graves hearing His voice and rising is in reference to the literal physical Resurrection of the dead that will occur at His Second Coming, during His Millennial Reign and before the Final Judgment.

The next verse 29 of John 5, supports verse 28, that those who are in spiritually in prison in the spiritual grave will be set free from their Spiritual darkness.

Regarding the Early Judeo-Christian concept of souls in a sheol/hades/hell/spirit world. Prestor John and FaithofChristian are describing two separate Christian interpretations. While Prestor John is describing the early Christian interpretation and worldview, FaithofChristian is describing a more modern Christian interpretation. This is not to say the early Christian interpretation is more or less correct than the modern one, merely that they are different. I do not see any advantage in the adoption of the more modern interpretations.


2) Regarding the early Judeo-Christian concept of a cognisant world of spirits :

I never claimed that our spirits remained with our bodies in the grave. I don't know where you got that from.....I don't understand these theories because they do not come from the scriptures.

I'm sorry, but your explanation of John 5:28-29, is too convoluted. It clearly speaks of "those in the Memorial tombs [that] will come out". It's a literal resurrection, from literal graves, at a future time.

Please tell me where Christ says I am talking about a grave, but I am totally changing the definition of the word. I don't mean a place where dead people go, I am really talking about where living people go" I have looked diligently and just can't find it..

I agree with Prestor John, and with Hockeycowboy, and with Smogie that the memorial tombs that Jesus describes in Koine are NOT referring to unbelieving, living individuals (i.e. the "spiritually dead"). Rather, the "memorial tombs" in this specific verse are referring to actual memorial tombs that encase dead physical bodies of individuals who lived previously, but are now dead.

I do not see the advantage of adopting FaithofChristian's interpretation on this point but instead, believe the ancient Christian interpretations are more clear, less "convoluted" and correspond much more coherently and rationally to the early Judeo-Christian literature than FaithofChristian's suggested interpretation.

Clear
φιφιτω

 

[shmogie]

Look God has given to those to know the difference between what is spiritual and what is not spiritual.
It's evidence you have no clue or idea what is spiritual and what is not spiritual.

Chuck them stones ! I will leave it to God to determine my spirituality. Your opinion of my spirituality is as important to me as the number of crabs breaking wind, during daylight hours, on all the beaches of the Philippines, on March 4, 1956. I am surprised you can type with that judgemental 2X4 hanging out of your eye.

 

[Faithofchristian]

How do you know this ??? Where is it found in the Bible ?

How do I know what is spiritual.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Therefore you would have to know the difference between the spiritual grave and the physical grave.

The physical grave is what you can see

The spiritual grave, can not be seen, that's why it's spiritually discerned.

The grave in which Christ Jesus spoke about, is not the physical grave, But the spiritual grave.

When Christ was put in the tomb after his death, Christ defeated the captivity of the grave.
"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me"
Psalm 49:15

Where once in time pass, before Christ Jesus, people were held captive by the grave, That now by the death of Christ Jesus in the tomb, Christ Jesus defeated the power of the grave.

"O death, where is your sting?
O grave, where is your victory"
1 Corinthians 15:55.

The victory of the grave, Christ Jesus defeated at his resurrection from the grave.
That where once the grave held it's victory over us, that now Christ Jesus defeated the power of the grave that it had over us. That now when we die, the grave has no power to hold us, That we by pass the grave, to the victory of Christ Jesus.

The only thing the grave has, is our dead body corps that returns to dust. but our spirit by passes the grave to go to be with God.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please define spirit

The spirit can not be seen, it's what keeps you alive, without the spirit in your body, you would die.
When you get old and die, your spirit comes out and returns back to God, Who gave it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

1) Regarding John 5:28



Regarding the Early Judeo-Christian concept of souls in a sheol/hades/hell/spirit world. Prestor John and FaithofChristian are describing two separate Christian interpretations. While Prestor John is describing the early Christian interpretation and worldview, FaithofChristian is describing a more modern Christian interpretation. This is not to say the early Christian interpretation is more or less correct than the modern one, merely that they are different. I do not see any advantage in the adoption of the more modern interpretations.


2) Regarding the early Judeo-Christian concept of a cognisant world of spirits :




I agree with Prestor John, and with Hockeycowboy, and with Smogie that the memorial tombs that Jesus describes in Koine are NOT referring to unbelieving, living individuals (i.e. the "spiritually dead"). Rather, the "memorial tombs" in this specific verse are referring to actual memorial tombs that encase dead physical bodies of individuals who lived previously, but are now dead.

I do not see the advantage of adopting FaithofChristian's interpretation on this point but instead, believe the ancient Christian interpretations are more clear, less "convoluted" and correspond much more coherently and rationally to the early Judeo-Christian literature than FaithofChristian's suggested interpretation.

Clear
φιφιτω

Seeing you have no concept of who the Spiritual dead are.

The Spiritual dead are, people who disbelieve in God and Christ Jesus.

Like the Atheist or anyone, who do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, Therefore they are Spiritual dead to God and Christ Jesus.
Who can call them the Unbelievers or the Spiritual dead. either way, they do not believe in God or Christ Jesus.
So they are Spiritual dead.unbelievers of God and Christ Jesus.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The spirit can not be seen, it's what keeps you alive, without the spirit in your body, you would die.
When you get old and die, your spirit comes out and returns back to God, Who gave it.

What exactly is "it"? (The spirit)

I know what a spirit is in regards that without what Is life as who we are, we wont be alive to live life, to which In spirit we are as well.

But you speak of it as if it has legs with ability to run. Spirit isnt a he, she, nor it.

What exactly is "it"? I read the bible. Its not self explanatory. What is spirit?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Chuck them stones ! I will leave it to God to determine my spirituality. Your opinion of my spirituality is as
important to me as the number of crabs breaking wind, during daylight hours, on all the beaches of the Philippines, on March 4, 1956. I am surprised you can type with that judgemental 2X4 hanging out of your eye.

You criticize, but have no idea or clue what your talking about.
On the most part, the Spiritual dead are those who do not believe in God and Christ Jesus.
Whether you call them the Unbelievers or the Spiritual dead, all comes down meaning the same thing.

The Unbelievers do not believe in God or Christ Jesus. That's why they are called Unbelievers.

The Spiritual dead, do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, That's why they are Spiritual dead to God and Christ Jesus.

 

[shmogie]

The spirit can not be seen, it's what keeps you alive, without the spirit in your body, you would die.
When you get old and die, your spirit comes out and returns back to God, Who gave it.

OK. So then the spirit is the person ? It is pretty clear that a myriad of spirit beings existed before humans. I wonder why humans were created as spirits, then they inhabit a mortal carcass, then are spirits again, then inhabit an immortal carcass. Or have I got it wrong ? I wonder why Paul was so passionate about the resurrection of people from their graves, in fact, he calls it ¨ the blessed hope ´ with great passion. The hope of what
i wonder ? Being a spirit, then reinhabiting a body ? I am not sure I would be very enthusiastic about that.

Is the spirit the living person, or is it something else ? If something else, what ? Circles within wheels within cylinders. Please help with my questions here.

Our first ancestors were told flatly and clearly, disobey and you die, I don´t recall any qualifiers to his statement, do you ? How can immortality in any form be death ? Help me here.

 

[Faithofchristian]

What exactly is "it"? (The spirit)

I know what a spirit is in regards that without what Is life as who we are, we wont be alive to live life, to which In spirit we are as well.

But you speak of it as if it has legs with ability to run. Spirit isnt a he, she, nor it.

What exactly is "it"? I read the bible. Its not self explanatory. What is spirit?

When God breathed the breath of life into Adam, God breathed the spirit of life into Adam and then Adam became a living soul.
The Spirit, is like the wind, you can feel it as it blows around you, but you can tell where it comes from or where it goes to.

 

[shmogie]

You criticize, but have no idea or clue what your talking about.
On the most part, the Spiritual dead are those who do not believe in God and Christ Jesus.
Whether you call them the Unbelievers or the Spiritual dead, all comes down meaning the same thing.

The Unbelievers do not believe in God or Christ Jesus. That's why they are called Unbelievers.

The Spiritual dead, do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, That's why they are Spiritual dead to God and Christ Jesus.

The lost are those who don´t have faith in Christ Jesus, they ultimately will be stone cold dead as warned. Please tell me, are you authorized to judge a personś relationship to God ? From whom did you get the authority to do so ? Do you speak in generalities or specifics in your judging ? If specifics, would you have been able to judge the heart of the Samaritan woman at the well ? Man, thatś some power ! I think you are taking a huge very likely fatal risk in making this claim, think about it. Prayer wouldn´t hurt either.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

And this is the problem many people have about being "born again". I can't tell you how many people think they are already born again but the Bible says those who are really born again are spirits and cannot be seen, just like the wind. But these people who think they are born again still have flesh and blood bodies so they are not spirits. They have fallen for Satan's lies.

 

[shmogie]

And this is the problem many people have about being "born again". I can't tell you how many people think they are already born again but the Bible says those who are really born again are spirits and cannot be seen, just like the wind. But these people who think they are born again still have flesh and blood bodies so they are not spirits. They have fallen for Satan's lies.

Please quote scripture in support of this assertion please.

 

[shmogie]

When God breathed the breath of life into Adam, God breathed the spirit of life into Adam and then Adam became a living soul.
The Spirit, is like the wind, you can feel it as it blows around you, but you can tell where it comes from or where it goes to.

Please help here. Since a body and the breath of life are required to be a living soul, spirits are people without a soul ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When God breathed the breath of life into Adam, God breathed the spirit of life into Adam and then Adam became a living soul.
The Spirit, is like the wind, you can feel it as it blows around you, but you can tell where it comes from or where it goes to.

It doesnt come from anywhere. You are spirit so for it to go anywhere outside the body (edit) not bible needs to be defined as an actual thing. Something that can exist without a human body.

Is the breath a disembodied thing? Is it real wind or an analogy; and what is the analogy based on if you seperate spirit from body?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And this is the problem many people have about being "born again". I can't tell you how many people think they are already born again but the Bible says those who are really born again are spirits and cannot be seen, just like the wind. But these people who think they are born again still have flesh and blood bodies so they are not spirits. They have fallen for Satan's lies.

Is that similar I read in the bible where the believers go straight to god at death while non christians wait until judgement?

Have you read that before?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please help here. Since a body and the breath of life are required to be a living soul, spirits are people without a soul ?

Spirits are not people, People are the physical beings,
Spirits are not physical beings.as we are of the physical.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Spiritual dead, do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, That's why they are

Thats better. If you said spiritually dead in general I see that a problem. Just in god and christ? That Im okay with. Got to be specific...

 

[shmogie]

How do I know what is spiritual.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Therefore you would have to know the difference between the spiritual grave and the physical grave.

The physical grave is what you can see

The spiritual grave, can not be seen, that's why it's spiritually discerned.

The grave in which Christ Jesus spoke about, is not the physical grave, But the spiritual grave.

When Christ was put in the tomb after his death, Christ defeated the captivity of the grave.
"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me"
Psalm 49:15

Where once in time pass, before Christ Jesus, people were held captive by the grave, That now by the death of Christ Jesus in the tomb, Christ Jesus defeated the power of the grave.

"O death, where is your sting?
O grave, where is your victory"
1 Corinthians 15:55.

The victory of the grave, Christ Jesus defeated at his resurrection from the grave.
That where once the grave held it's victory over us, that now Christ Jesus defeated the power of the grave that it had over us. That now when we die, the grave has no power to hold us, That we by pass the grave, to the victory of Christ Jesus.

The only thing the grave has, is our dead body corps that returns to dust. but our spirit by passes the grave to go to be with God.

I agree in totality with the scripture you posted, Amen. You have made no case for your opinions however. Christ certainly defeated the power of the grave. He stayed in the grave for a time, but was resurrected after that time. We are told that the righteous in Christ will also be resurrected, at the first resurrection, after a time, be it one day, or five thousand years. Time is irrelevant to God, and to every believer it will be like they closed their eyes, then opened them again, scripture says " as in the twinkling of an eye". Yes, what is translated from the Greek as spirit does go to God at death, but it isn't the conscious whole person. The conscious whole person is resting in the grave, dead, waiting to become a living soul again at the resurrection.

You have asserted many times that Christ, when talking about the grave means a spiritual grave. However you haven't posted any scripture that confirms this. It appears that you are asking me to believe it because you are spiritual, and since I am not, I have to take your word for it. Sorry, but I have to have evidence from the Word.

PLEASE, give me the scriptures that prove Christ changed the definition of the word grave, and was using it as a metaphor for something else. It must not be nebulous, it must be beyond doubt. Thank you

 

[shmogie]

Spirits are not people, People are the physical beings,
Spirits are not physical beings.as we are of the physical.

Ok, if they aren't the people who died, who are they ?