State of the Dead

[Faithofchristian]

It doesnt come from anywhere. You are spirit so for it to go anywhere outside the body (edit) not bible needs to be defined as an actual thing. Something that can exist without a human body.

Is the breath a disembodied thing? Is it real wind or an analogy; and what is the analogy based on if you seperate spirit from body?

The wind does come wherever it may come, do you know from where the wind comes from, you can feel the wind blowing on you, but where does it go from there, unless you go after the wind to see where it goes.

In the book of John 3:8, Jesus speaking, saying, "The wind blows where it listeth, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes, so is everyone that is born of the Spirit"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The wind does come wherever it may come, do you know from where the wind comes from, you can feel the wind blowing on you, but where does it go from there, unless you go after the wind to see where it goes.

In the book of John 3:8, Jesus speaking, saying, "The wind blows where it listeth, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes, so is everyone that is born of the Spirit"

The wind is a perfect example of how we interact In the wind and because it isnt seperate from our interaction to ask where it comes from is like asking where the beginning of a circle starts.

The wind doesnt "come from" anywhere. It moves. It expand in strength it blows fast. It can also be a breeze. It can leave non existence in the desert heat. It goes no where.

You say a spirit comes "from" the body not part of it. What is it that returns to god? Wind doesnt return. It just is.

Also,

If your scripture is correct the spirit doesnt go to nor from god. He says you can listen to it (know it exists) but not the origin nor the destination.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I agree in totality with the scripture you posted, Amen. You have made no case for your opinions however. Christ certainly defeated the power of the grave. He stayed in the grave for a time, but was resurrected after that time. We are told that the righteous in Christ will also be resurrected, at the first resurrection, after a time, be it one day, or five thousand years. Time is irrelevant to God, and to every believer it will be like they closed their eyes, then opened them again, scripture says " as in the twinkling of an eye". Yes, what is translated from the Greek as spirit does go to God at death, but it isn't the conscious whole person. The conscious whole person is resting in the grave, dead, waiting to become a living soul again at the resurrection.

You have asserted many times that Christ, when talking about the grave means a spiritual grave. However you haven't posted any scripture that confirms this. It appears that you are asking me to believe it because you are spiritual, and since I am not, I have to take your word for it. Sorry, but I have to have evidence from the Word.

PLEASE, give me the scriptures that prove Christ changed the definition of the word grave, and was using it as a metaphor for something else. It must not be nebulous, it must be beyond doubt. Thank you

Well seeing you have no understanding about Spiritual discernment of things. It would be useless.

Look in the book of Psalm 49:15--"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me"

Do you not understand, that Christ defeated the power of the grave.
At his death resurrection from the tomb. Therefore the grave has no hold on me, for Christ freed me from the grave.

But for the Unbelievers, Spiritual dead, the grave has power over them.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Ok, if they aren't the people who died, who are they ?

Spirits can not die.
People die, But the Spirit can not die.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The wind is a perfect example of how we interact In the wind and because it isnt seperate from our interaction to ask where it comes from is like asking where the beginning of a circle starts.

The wind doesnt "come from" anywhere. It moves. It expand in strength it blows fast. It can also be a breeze. It can leave non existence in the desert heat. It goes no where.

You say a spirit comes "from" the body not part of it. What is it that returns to god? Wind doesnt return. It just is.

Also,

If your scripture is correct the spirit doesnt go to nor from god. He says you can listen to it (know it exists) but not the origin nor the destination.

Look the wind is just example of how the spirit is. You can not see the wind, you can not see the spirit either.

The wind blows where it may, the spirit goes where it may.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look the wind is just example of how the spirit is. You can not see the wind, you can not see the spirit either.

The wind blows where it may, the spirit goes where it may.

Keep following me here. If the spirit can exist putside tbe body, and jesus said you can lisren to it without coming from nor to anything,

Define what is breathe without the body?

What Goes to god?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Keep following me here. If the spirit can exist putside tbe body, and jesus said you can lisren to it without coming from nor to anything,

Define what is breathe without the body?

What Goes to god?

Your spirit returns back to God.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Read John 3:5-8. Especially see verse 6. "that which is born of the Spirit IS spirit". When you are born again of the Spirit you will BE spirit. Notice how it continues to say how you cannot see the wind and those who are spirit will be like that. Sorry all you people who think you are born again but if you have skin and bone you are not spirit and not born of the Spirit.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Read John 3:5-8. Especially see verse 6. "that which is born of the Spirit IS spirit". When you are born again of the Spirit you will BE spirit. Notice how it continues to say how you cannot see the wind and those who are spirit will be like that. Sorry all you people who think you are born again but if you have skin and bone you are not spirit and not born of the Spirit.

Seeing you have no idea what it means to be born of the Spirit.

To be born again of the Spirit, is by the word of God.
1 Peter 1:22-23.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your spirit returns back to God.

If spirit is breathe, what returns to god?

Wind doesnt return anywhere. A line in a circle doesnt return anywhere.

Our (not are) spirit is life itself. It cant return. Once we die, there is no spirit.

So in your point of view, define what returns to god....

Given your scripture doesnt explain anyone returning just the fact spirit exists without begining nor end.

 

[shmogie]

Your spirit returns back to God.

round and round and round. The Holy Spirit is an individual being, part of the Godhead, specifically tasked for the completion of certain objectives of God.

In contrast, the spirit of a dead person is both the breath of live given by God, returning to him, as well as the individuality, memory, and consciousness of the dead person, which will be restored at the resurrection.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING JOHN 5:28-29

1) Regarding John 5:28
Regarding the Early Judeo-Christian concept of souls in a sheol/hades/hell/spirit world. Prestor John and FaithofChristian are describing two separate Christian interpretations. While Prestor John is describing the early Christian interpretation and worldview, FaithofChristian is describing a more modern Christian interpretation. This is not to say the early Christian interpretation is more or less correct than the modern one, merely that they are different. I do not see any advantage in the adoption of the more modern interpretations.


2) Regarding the early Judeo-Christian concept of a cognisant world of spirits :
I agree with Prestor John, and with Hockeycowboy, and with Smogie that the memorial tombs that Jesus describes in Koine are NOT referring to unbelieving, living individuals (i.e. the "spiritually dead"). Rather, the "memorial tombs" in this specific verse are referring to actual memorial tombs that encase dead physical bodies of individuals who lived previously, but are now dead.

I do not see the advantage of adopting FaithofChristian's interpretation on this point but instead, believe the ancient Christian interpretations are more clear, less "convoluted" and correspond much more coherently and rationally to the early Judeo-Christian literature than FaithofChristian's suggested interpretation.

Clear
φιφιτω

Seeing you have no concept of who the Spiritual dead are.
The Spiritual dead are, people who disbelieve in God and Christ Jesus.
Like the Atheist or anyone, who do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, Therefore they are Spiritual dead to God and Christ Jesus.
Who can call them the Unbelievers or the Spiritual dead. either way, they do not believe in God or Christ Jesus.
So they are Spiritual dead.unbelievers of God and Christ Jesus.

FaithofChristian, To respond that I have no concept of "who the spiritual dead are" is illogical since I offered the same definition as you ("unbelieving individuals..."). Moreover, this irrational response does nothing to support your theory.

Please be at peace on this issue. I am not saying that your creation of modern personal interpretation is a bad thing, but I am saying that the ancient Christian interpretations and worldviews seem, to me, to be more logical and more rational and more coherent than your interpretation.

Prestor John, Hockeycowboy, and Smogie have all made valid and correct points regarding your personal theory and interpretation of John 5:28-29 and why it is incoherent historically.

For example, Hockeycowboy corrrectly pointed out that when Christ says "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the [memorial] tombs will hear his voice and come forth..." he is speaking of the actual memorial tombs, not of a "spiritually dead" person. The greek here is ""...οτι ερχεται ωρα εν η παντεσ εν τοισ μνημειοισ ακουσουσιν τησ φωνησ αυτου...".

A ”μνημα” IS a “tomb” or a “monument” and it is not the individual. For example, BGU IV. 1024.iv.23 of 4-5 a.d. speaks of those “coming to [the] tomb/monument of their loved one” (εφθασεν εις το μνημα τ[ης φι]λης αυτου”). It is a memorial tomb being described. Moltons example from Kaibel S2.1 of 4 b.c. demonstrates the same exact usage.

No other metaphorical use in the early literature supports your unusual and bizarre meaning.

For example, in P. Flor I. 9.10 of 225 a.d., the plural form μνημειον also refers to multiple memorial tombs of a village. The Phrase «φθασαντος μου προς τοις μναιμιοις της αυτης κωμης is describing a person who comes to (visits) the memorial tombs in their own village. This term is not used in the early literature for the “spiritually dead person” but instead, refers to a “memorial tomb” as hockeycowboy pointed out. In fact even the base word μνημη refers to a memory. For example, one may use μνημην ποιεισθαι in the sense of making mention of something (and thus bring it to current memory). P Ryl II.233.12 of 2 a.d. speak of “having fresh in his mind (memory) the prices of the fittings which he buys…” εχων θπογυως εν μνημηι τας τιμας ων αγοραζει εχαρτισμων.
P. Oxy II 237.vi.30 of 186 a.d. uses the term referring to a lord who exercises “their divine memory and unerring judgment” in considering a letter written to them. This IS the meaning of the term inside early Christian worldviews.
For example, the same base word is used in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, “remembering before our God and Father…” (grk = μνημονευοντες υμων....) .
In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 the word is used to say “For you remember our labor…” (grk = Μνημονευετε γαρ, αδελφοι, τον κοπον ημων...)
In Hebrews 13:7 it used the same way : “Remember our leaders…” (grk = Μνημονευετε των εγουμενων υμων...)

Even when it is used in the form of Μνημονειον in P. Oxy X 1282.22 of a.d. 83, it refers to a “record-office” where “memories of transactions” are stored in written form.

The point in offering multiple examples simply shows that the word as used in John 5:28-29 refers to “memorial tombs” (as hockeycowboy pointed out to you). For early Judeo-Christians, it never had the modern meaning you are attempting to give it. As I said, I am merely pointing out that the early Christian interpretations are, in my mind, better and more rational and more accurate than these modern interpretations and theories such as you are attempting to create and support. I think theorizing and creating models is good, but this specific point will not work inside historical Christian Usage.


In any case FaithofChristian, I hope your spiritual journey is good


Clear
φυφιτωω

 

[Trailblazer]

When Christ spoke of the grave this is not a grave which we see a literal grave as a hole in the ground. The grave which Jesus speaks of is spiritual.

That's fairly obvious...

 

[Brickjectivity]

Sigh, so you then have given yourself the authority to read the Scriptures and manipulate them in any manner you think right to reach a conclusion you think that is acceptable to you and you are comfortable with. The gnostics claimed they had this authority as well.

Lets end this now, a discussion along these lines becomes one of opinions rather than that of fact as measured by the standard of the Bible. Lets part amicably, Peace to you.

Manipulation means adding assumptions. The OP adds assumptions which I have pointed out.

 

[Faithofchristian]

round and round and round. The Holy Spirit is an individual being, part of the Godhead, specifically tasked for the completion of certain objectives of God.

In contrast, the spirit of a dead person is both the breath of live given by God, returning to him, as well as the individuality, memory, and consciousness of the dead person, which will be restored at the resurrection.

Look, when a person dies, their spirit returns back to God, with everything,their memory, consciousness, being aware of who they are.
Otherwise what your saying, is that when a person dies their spirit returns back to God, empty nothing in it.

When the spirit returns back to God, the spirit returns back with a brain,memory, and consciousness of who they are and others they knew on earth.

 

[Faithofchristian]

REGARDING JOHN 5:28-29





FaithofChristian, To respond that I have no concept of "who the spiritual dead are" is illogical since I offered the same definition as you ("unbelieving individuals..."). Moreover, this irrational response does nothing to support your theory.

Please be at peace on this issue. I am not saying that your creation of modern personal interpretation is a bad thing, but I am saying that the ancient Christian interpretations and worldviews seem, to me, to be more logical and more rational and more coherent than your interpretation.

Prestor John, Hockeycowboy, and Smogie have all made valid and correct points regarding your personal theory and interpretation of John 5:28-29 and why it is incoherent historically.

For example, Hockeycowboy corrrectly pointed out that when Christ says "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the [memorial] tombs will hear his voice and come forth..." he is speaking of the actual memorial tombs, not of a "spiritually dead" person. The greek here is ""...οτι ερχεται ωρα εν η παντεσ εν τοισ μνημειοισ ακουσουσιν τησ φωνησ αυτου...".

A ”μνημα” IS a “tomb” or a “monument” and it is not the individual. For example, BGU IV. 1024.iv.23 of 4-5 a.d. speaks of those “coming to [the] tomb/monument of their loved one” (εφθασεν εις το μνημα τ[ης φι]λης αυτου”). It is a memorial tomb being described. Moltons example from Kaibel S2.1 of 4 b.c. demonstrates the same exact usage.

No other metaphorical use in the early literature supports your unusual and bizarre meaning.

For example, in P. Flor I. 9.10 of 225 a.d., the plural form μνημειον also refers to multiple memorial tombs of a village. The Phrase «φθασαντος μου προς τοις μναιμιοις της αυτης κωμης is describing a person who comes to (visits) the memorial tombs in their own village. This term is not used in the early literature for the “spiritually dead person” but referral to a “memorial tomb”. In fact even the base word μνημη refers to a memory. For example, one may use μνημην ποιεισθαι in the sense of making mention of something (and thus bring it to current memory). P Ryl II.233.12 of 2 a.d. speak of “having fresh in his mind (memory) the prices of the fittings which he buys…” εχων θπογυως εν μνημηι τας τιμας ων αγοραζει εχαρτισμων.
P. Oxy II 237.vi.30 of 186 a.d. uses the term referring to a lord who exercises “their divine memory and unerring judgment” in considering a letter written to them. This IS the meaning of the term inside early Christian worldviews.
For example, the same base word is used in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, “remembering before our God and Father…” (grk = μνημονευοντες υμων....) .
In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 the word is used to say “For you remember our labor…” (grk = Μνημονευετε γαρ, αδελφοι, τον κοπον ημων...)
In Hebrews 13:7 it used the same way : “Remember our leaders…” (grk = Μνημονευετε των εγουμενων υμων...)

Even when it is used in the form of Μνημονειον in P. Oxy X 1282.22 of a.d. 83, it refers to a “record-office” where “memories of transactions” are stored in written form.

The point in offering multiple examples simply shows that the word as used in John 5:28-29 refers to “memorial tombs” (as hockeycowboy pointed out to you). For early Judeo-Christians, it never had the modern meaning you are attempting to give it. As I said, I am merely pointing out that the early Christian interpretations are, in my mind, better and more rational and more accurate than these modern interpretations and theories such as you are attempting to create and support. I think theorizing and creating models is good, but this specific point will not work inside historical Christian Usage.


In any case FaithofChristian, I hope your spiritual journey is good


Clear
φυφιτωω

First of all you lost before you even got out the gate. When you made mention of worldviews.
i do not go by worldviews. Nor what
Christianity thinks.

I go by what is written and what the Spirit of God has to say in his word.

The early first Christians understood and was taught about the Spirit of the word of God was saying.

When you open up the bible and read, your reading what is black and white and red and white. Ok

Now can you read what the Spirit of the word is saying ?

Here's a good example, go to the book of Mark 13, That in this Chapter, Jesus is giving what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is and when it will happen and who can commit it.

Now upon reading Chapter 13 of Mark, what you will be reading, is in red and white.
But what is the Spirit of the word saying ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

That's fairly obvious...

There are many people who do not understand the grave in which they see is literal. But the grave in which Jesus speaks about is Spiritual.

Let's look back before Christ Jesus came into this world, Ok

Now back before Christ came into this world, when people died their spirit was held captive in the grave.

Now that Christ Jesus came into the world and in his death and Resurrection from the tomb, (grave) Christ Jesus got victory over the grave, that we are no longer held captive in the grave, but our spirit is set free to return back to God.

Otherwise how can the bible (scriptures)
say--- "O death, where is your sting ?
O grave where is your victory"
1 Corinthians 15:55.

"But thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
1 Corinthians 15:57.

"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me"
Psalm 49:15

This is exactly what Christ Jesus did, got the victory over the grave, that we are not held captive by the grave either.

In the book of John Chapter 12, here we find Christ Jesus called Lazarus out of his grave, this further illustrates that Christ Jesus has the power and victory over the grave.
like Christ Jesus risen from his
tomb (grave) our Spirit will rise out of the grave also, for Christ Jesus has the power and victory over the grave.
The grave has no power over us also, for by Christ Jesus the grave has no power over us either. To hold us captive.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5:8.

 

[shmogie]

Look, when a person dies, their spirit returns back to God, with everything,their memory, consciousness, being aware of who they are.
Otherwise what your saying, is that when a person dies their spirit returns back to God, empty nothing in it.

When the spirit returns back to God, the spirit returns back with a brain,memory, and consciousness of who they are and others they knew on earth.

But what you state is totally contrary to what God explicitly stated in the first book of the Bible, " you will surely die". You are saying no one dies and all are immortal. Christ said "Lazarus IS asleep". According to you He was in error because Lazarus wasn't asleep, he was actually fully awake and with God. You didn't respond when I asked why Lazarus was so happy that Christ had jerked him back to sinful earth, from the presence of God. Ditto for all resurrected.

Here it is, and I don't mean it to sting. Human immortality is one of the hallmarks of all pagan beliefs. To accommodate it, many Christians created the dead body, living soul narrative. God says you will die, but he just means your body, and you will actually live eternally. To paraphrase what my Mom used to say, they can have their cake, and eat it too.

When Paul said oh so rightfully that Christ had defeated the grave, and that death had no sting, he was speaking about the great resurrection when believers would come joyfully from their grave. Paul makes a big deal about how wonderful and happy this will be, but why if everyone is just moving en masse back to their bodies on earth. I can see them all in the presence of God, and he tells them OK, move out. A wondrous thing, no doubt, but for they, and Paul to be so ecstatic about it ?.............................

If I could just find the verses that others have found where God says," you are going to die, but actually I mean just your body will die and you will live forever." Or where Christ says " when I speak of death, I don't really mean dying, I mean spiritual death, which isn't death at all." Or where he says " when I speak of the grave, I don't mean what the word has meant forever, I mean another kind of grave, that I will define right now" I have BEGGED to be enlightened on these texts, no one has given them to me.

You tell me I must be spiritual ( and Iam not) to understand what you understand. You tell me that because you are spiritual, you are given access to a code in the Bible and it's understanding. A code which non spiritual people do hot have.

Sorry, but that is simply a qualifier and justifier you use to bolster your nebulous beliefs in relation to the beliefs of others.

 

[shmogie]

That's fairly obvious...

My friend, not at all obvious from the Christian scriptures. In fact, human immortality is not a pure Christian concept. It is a fusion of Christian beliefs and pagan ( non Christian ) beliefs for the Christian. It is the hallmark of virtually all pagan belief systems

 

[Faithofchristian]

But what you state is totally contrary to what God explicitly stated in the first book of the Bible, " you will surely die". You are saying no one dies and all are immortal. Christ said "Lazarus IS asleep". According to you He was in error because Lazarus wasn't asleep, he was actually fully awake and with God. You didn't respond when I asked why Lazarus was so happy that Christ had jerked him back to sinful earth, from the presence of God. Ditto for all resurrected.

Here it is, and I don't mean it to sting. Human immortality is one of the hallmarks of all pagan beliefs. To accommodate it, many Christians created the dead body, living soul narrative. God says you will die, but he just means your body, and you will actually live eternally. To paraphrase what my Mom used to say, they can have their cake, and eat it too.

When Paul said oh so rightfully that Christ had defeated the grave, and that death had no sting, he was speaking about the great resurrection when believers would come joyfully from their grave. Paul makes a big deal about how wonderful and happy this will be, but why if everyone is just moving en masse back to their bodies on earth. I can see them all in the presence of God, and he tells them OK, move out. A wondrous thing, no doubt, but for they, and Paul to be so ecstatic about it ?.............................

If I could just find the verses that others have found where God says," you are going to die, but actually I mean just your body will die and you will live forever." Or where Christ says " when I speak of death, I don't really mean dying, I mean spiritual death, which isn't death at all." Or where he says " when I speak of the grave, I don't mean what the word has meant forever, I mean another kind of grave, that I will define right now" I have BEGGED to be enlightened on these texts, no one has given them to me.

You tell me I must be spiritual ( and Iam not) to understand what you understand. You tell me that because you are spiritual, you are given access to a code in the Bible and it's understanding. A code which non spiritual people do hot have.

Sorry, but that is simply a qualifier and justifier you use to bolster your nebulous beliefs in relation to the beliefs of others.

Look, your Spirit within you, does not die, your body of flesh and blood dies.

Ok, by all means please do tell, what is the spirit of the word saying in the book of
Mark 13, Christ Jesus has given what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is and when it will happen and who can commit it.
So what is the Spirit of the word of what Christ Jesus is saying in Mark 13 ?