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States without justice are but criminal gangs enlarged

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book IV (St. Augustine)


"Remove justice, and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale? What are criminal gangs but petty kingdoms? A gang is a group of men under the command of a leader, bound by a compact of association, in which the plunder is divided according to an agreed convention.

If this villainy wins so many recruits from the ranks of the demoralized that it acquires territory, establishes a base, captures cities and subdues peoples, it then openly arrogates to itself the title of kingdom, which is conferred on it in the eyes of the world, not by the renouncing of aggression but by the attainment of impunity.

For it was a witty and truthful rejoinder which was given by a captured pirate to Alexander the Great. The king asked the fellow, “What is your idea, in infesting the sea?” And the pirate answered, with uninhibited insolence, “The same as yours, in infesting the earth! But because I do it with a tiny craft, I’m called a pirate; because you have a mighty navy, you’re called an emperor"...


To crush and subdue more remote peoples without provocation and solely from the thirst for dominion—what is one to call this but brigandage on the grand scale?".


St. Augustine (354-430), Concerning the City of God Against the Pagans (H. Bettenson, Tr.), Book IV, Ch. 4


Discuss.

Do you agree or disagree with St. Augustine's argument that the presence of justice is the only thing that could distinguish a sovereign state from a criminal gang? What do you think of the little fable he uses to explain this, about Alexander the Great's dressing-down by a witty pirate?

St. Augustine successfully uprooted the classical understanding of a “commonwealth” as a society of men (always men, of course) who band together based around an accord about justice:


"… if there is no justice in such a man, then it is beyond doubt that there is no justice in a collection of men consisting of persons of this kind"( XIX.21)

This line of thought was of pivotal significance to Augustine’s critique of pagan Rome’s claim to be a divinely ordained and upheld social order "without end". In Augustine's estimation, imperial regimes - precisely because they "crush and subdue more remote peoples" - cannot be truly just and so they are really nothing but huge criminal gangs, no better than highway robbers; with the only distinction being one of scale and manpower of the demoralised masses.

The key issue raised by St. Augustine is how to distinguish legitimate governments from illegitimate, justice from tyranny, noting, “If we were to examine the conduct of states by the test of justice, as you propose, we should probably make this astounding discovery, that very few nations, if they restored what they have usurped, would possess any country at all” (De re pub. 3).

Augustine finds that,


there never was a Roman republic; for he briefly defines a republic as the weal of the people. And if this definition be true, there never was a Roman republic, for the people’s weal was never attained among the Romans...

Where there is not true justice there can be no assemblage of men associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and therefore there can be no people, as defined by Scipio or Cicero; and if no people, then no weal of the people, but only of some promiscuous multitude unworthy of the name of people.

Consequently, if the republic is the weal of the people, and there is no people if it be not associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and if there is no right where there is no justice, then most certainly it follows that there is no republic where there is no justice.”
(De civ. Dei 4.19.21).

See:

The City of God and the City | Nicholas Sagovsky

Justice is the means to an end which all human beings really desire, and that end is peace. In a famous phrase, Augustine asks, "If you take away justice, what are nations but massive gangs of thieves?" Where there is no justice, he adds, there is no "commonwealth". His word for commonwealth is res publica, public realm. Without justice, there is no public realm – because everything is up for grabs, everything becomes material for personal gain. The lack of justice is what ultimately destroys the proper sense of the social, of society.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Anarchy simply doesn't work historically, and it almost always leads to eventual totalitarian rule.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Even with justice, what's the difference between a government and a gang?
Both have their rules of behavior and penalties for infractions.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Interesting topic.

I can easily agree with Augustine that a just government is key to a good society, but I think a good society must go further than that to be structured or ordered in ways that provide for mutual defense, promote the general well being, and at least allow for as many people as possible to flourish -- by which I mostly mean, attain self-fulfillment in socially and environmentally responsible ways. I see a just society as both good in itself and a necessary precondition for those other things.

Again, to emphasize "precondition": Seems to me an unjust society would deteriorate more or less as Augustine predicts, making impossible the other values I spoke of.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Interesting topic.

I can easily agree with Augustine that a just government is key to a good society, but I think a good society must go further than that to be structured or ordered in ways that provide for mutual defense, promote the general well being, and at least allow for as many people as possible to flourish -- by which I mostly mean, attain self-fulfillment in socially and environmentally responsible ways. I see a just society as both good in itself and a necessary precondition for those other things.

Excellent point, completely agree with you.

One should note precisely what St. Augustine means when he speaks about "justice". I think I should define the term for the purposes of this discussion:


https://www.iep.utm.edu/justwest/


Augustine can draw the striking conclusion that, strictly speaking, “an unjust law is no law at all,” an oxymoron (Choice, pp. 20, 11, 8; cf. Religion, p. 89, for an analysis of justice that relates it to love). Thus a civil law of the state that violates God’s eternal law is not morally binding and can be legitimately disobeyed in good conscience. This was to have a profound and ongoing influence on Christian ethics.

In his masterpiece, The City of God, Augustine draws the dramatic conclusion from this position that the Roman Empire was never a truly just political society. He expresses his disgust over its long history of “revolting injustice.” The just, rather than the powerful, should rule for the common good, rather than serving their own self-interest. He strikingly compares unjust societies, based on might rather than on right, to “gangs of criminals on a large scale,” for, without justice, a kingdom or empire is merely ruled by the arbitrary fiat of some leader(s).

A genuinely just society must be based on Christian love, its peaceful order established by the following of two basic rules—that people harm nobody and that they should try to help everyone to the extent that they can do so (City, pp. 75, 67, 75, 138-139, 873).

And also:


http://www.washingtoninst.org/12808/augustine-speech-and-citizens/


[To Augustine] the state exists, mercifully, to attempt to provide what humans long for, which is peace, security, stability, and a modicum of flourishing. The earthly city is what humans have devised, using their God-given reason, to “make life on this earth less cruel and unjust” (66). Obviously, how well that city reduces cruelty and injustice fluctuates given how it is governed.


This is what he means by "justice".
 
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Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
Anarchy simply doesn't work historically, and it almost always leads to eventual totalitarian rule.
What about the basque people?

What about any of the tribes that refuse to join modern society in Indonesia and parts of the Amazon and in Africa? They have no centralized governmental structure and are in a state of anarchy. I guess they don't count right?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What about the basque people?

What about any of the tribes that refuse to join modern society in Indonesia and parts of the Amazon and in Africa? They have no centralized governmental structure and are in a state of anarchy. I guess they don't count right?
A decentralized government is still a government, thus not anarchy. Here's the a description of what "anarchy" is:
"Definition of anarchy
: absence of government."
-- Definition of ANARCHY
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Even with justice, what's the difference between a government and a gang?
Both have their rules of behavior and penalties for infractions.
I would joke around about New York and say the reason why there's no mafia is because they all got elected.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
A decentralized government is still a government, thus not anarchy. Here's the a description of what "anarchy" is:
"Definition of anarchy
: absence of government."
-- Definition of ANARCHY


I misspoke, the basque do not have a government, nor do they recognize the Spanish government. Tribes in the Amazon don't even know they are in "Brazil" so they aren't part of the government. THey govern themselves.

Anarchy works, if the population is small enough.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I misspoke, the basque do not have a government, nor do they recognize the Spanish government. Tribes in the Amazon don't even know they are in "Brazil" so they aren't part of the government. THey govern themselves.

Anarchy works, if the population is small enough.
That's also not true as what happens with smaller bands is that they basically form what is called "direct democracy", which still is a form of government. "Anarchy" basically states there there simply is no form of government present, thus pretty much anything goes. Social pressure alone has never proven itself to be sustainable in the long run.

There's an old English saying that goes: "If two Englishmen were stranded alone on a desert island, the first thing they'd do is form a government".
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book IV (St. Augustine)


"Remove justice, and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale? What are criminal gangs but petty kingdoms? A gang is a group of men under the command of a leader, bound by a compact of association, in which the plunder is divided according to an agreed convention.

If this villainy wins so many recruits from the ranks of the demoralized that it acquires territory, establishes a base, captures cities and subdues peoples, it then openly arrogates to itself the title of kingdom, which is conferred on it in the eyes of the world, not by the renouncing of aggression but by the attainment of impunity.

For it was a witty and truthful rejoinder which was given by a captured pirate to Alexander the Great. The king asked the fellow, “What is your idea, in infesting the sea?” And the pirate answered, with uninhibited insolence, “The same as yours, in infesting the earth! But because I do it with a tiny craft, I’m called a pirate; because you have a mighty navy, you’re called an emperor"...


To crush and subdue more remote peoples without provocation and solely from the thirst for dominion—what is one to call this but brigandage on the grand scale?".


St. Augustine (354-430), Concerning the City of God Against the Pagans (H. Bettenson, Tr.), Book IV, Ch. 4


Discuss.

Do you agree or disagree with St. Augustine's argument that the presence of justice is the only thing that could distinguish a sovereign state from a criminal gang? What do you think of the little fable he uses to explain this, about Alexander the Great's dressing-down by a witty pirate?

St. Augustine successfully uprooted the classical understanding of a “commonwealth” as a society of men (always men, of course) who band together based around an accord about justice:


"… if there is no justice in such a man, then it is beyond doubt that there is no justice in a collection of men consisting of persons of this kind"( XIX.21)

This line of thought was of pivotal significance to Augustine’s critique of pagan Rome’s claim to be a divinely ordained and upheld social order "without end". In Augustine's estimation, imperial regimes - precisely because they "crush and subdue more remote peoples" - cannot be truly just and so they are really nothing but huge criminal gangs, no better than highway robbers; with the only distinction being one of scale and manpower of the demoralised masses.

The key issue raised by St. Augustine is how to distinguish legitimate governments from illegitimate, justice from tyranny, noting, “If we were to examine the conduct of states by the test of justice, as you propose, we should probably make this astounding discovery, that very few nations, if they restored what they have usurped, would possess any country at all” (De re pub. 3).

Augustine finds that,


there never was a Roman republic; for he briefly defines a republic as the weal of the people. And if this definition be true, there never was a Roman republic, for the people’s weal was never attained among the Romans...

Where there is not true justice there can be no assemblage of men associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and therefore there can be no people, as defined by Scipio or Cicero; and if no people, then no weal of the people, but only of some promiscuous multitude unworthy of the name of people.

Consequently, if the republic is the weal of the people, and there is no people if it be not associated by a common acknowledgment of right, and if there is no right where there is no justice, then most certainly it follows that there is no republic where there is no justice.”
(De civ. Dei 4.19.21).

See:

The City of God and the City | Nicholas Sagovsky

Justice is the means to an end which all human beings really desire, and that end is peace. In a famous phrase, Augustine asks, "If you take away justice, what are nations but massive gangs of thieves?" Where there is no justice, he adds, there is no "commonwealth". His word for commonwealth is res publica, public realm. Without justice, there is no public realm – because everything is up for grabs, everything becomes material for personal gain. The lack of justice is what ultimately destroys the proper sense of the social, of society.
Noble ideas..but I have a cynical suspicion that he is saying all this only make his own gang of men (church) sound legitimate and just.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Noble ideas..but I have a cynical suspicion that he is saying all this only make his own gang of men (church) sound legitimate and just.

Perhaps you have a point there! I can't really say myself, since he doesn't elaborate more on the subject. What makes you suspect this could be the case, if I might ask?
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps you have a point there! I can't really say myself, since he doesn't elaborate more on the subject. What makes you suspect this could be the case, if I might ask?
Human nature. Further with Rome falling, it would be natural for the church to start to distance itself from it while claiming it itself is legitimate.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Human nature. Further with Rome falling, it would be natural for the church to start to distance itself from it while claiming it itself is legitimate.

That's a fair point, given how the church did emerge - in the aftermath of the downfall - as the domineering force in Western Europe for the next two millennia. The pope became the uncontested hegemon in the West, until the Holy Roman Empire had its brief period in the sun starting with Charlemagne (albeit he was crowned by the Pope).

Nevertheless, it must be remembered that the latter Roman Empire had declared Christianity the state religion. So, ostensibly, it would have been viewed as a disaster for the Church as well - at least at the beginning. No one could have foreseen what lay ahead, the middle ages. They didn't have our gift of hindsight, the knowledge that the Church was on the cusp of absolute dominance and the acme of its social privilege.

The sack of Rome, the eternal city, by the barbarians was an existential body blow to millions of people who viewed themselves as part of a cosmopolitan, timeless 'civilization', so I guess the less cynical interpretation would be that he was trying to give them hope in the future and reassure them that the collapse of this "earthly city" was not the be all and end all.

I can't imagine how terrifying and surreal it must have been to have witnessed the fall of the Western Roman Empire. To that generation, it would have seemed like the apocalypse itself.

Life will go on, the empire wasn't a just social order anyway seems to have been Augustine's basic message. In context, I guess it was preferable to pining after a moribund political system, whatever his motive (which is a speculative endeavour, after all).

A Brave New World beckoned. Christendom, which we've only left behind in the last century, really, with the advance of secularization in Europe.

Maybe St. Augustine was just more prescient than his peers i.e.


Fall of the Western Roman Empire - Wikipedia


In 410 Alaric took Rome by starvation, sacked it for three days (there was relatively little destruction, and in some Christian holy places Alaric's men even refrained from wanton wrecking and rape), and invited its remaining barbarian slaves to join him, which many did.

The city of Rome was the seat of the richest senatorial noble families and the centre of their cultural patronage; to pagans it was the sacred origin of the empire, and to Christians the seat of the heir of Saint Peter, Pope Innocent I, the most authoritative bishop of the West. Rome had not fallen to an enemy since the Battle of the Allia over eight centuries before.

Refugees spread the news and their stories throughout the Empire, and the meaning of the fall was debated with religious fervour. Both Christians and pagans wrote embittered tracts, blaming paganism or Christianity respectively for the loss of Rome's supernatural protection, and blaming Stilicho's earthly failures in either case.[133][92]

Some Christian responses anticipated the imminence of Judgement Day. Augustine in his book "City of God" ultimately rejected the pagan and Christian idea that religion should have worldly benefits; he developed the doctrine that the City of God in heaven, undamaged by mundane disasters, was the true objective of Christians.[134]
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Do you agree or disagree with St. Augustine's argument that the presence of justice is the only thing that could distinguish a sovereign state from a criminal gang?
I don't agree with that rephrasing. Even a dictatorship can be a sovereign state in the sense that it controls a set territory and isn't beholden to some higher government.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That's also not true as what happens with smaller bands is that they basically form what is called "direct democracy", which still is a form of government. "Anarchy" basically states there there simply is no form of government present, thus pretty much anything goes. Social pressure alone has never proven itself to be sustainable in the long run.

There's an old English saying that goes: "If two Englishmen were stranded alone on a desert island, the first thing they'd do is form a government".

It would never happen, because they'd have to wait to be introduced.
 
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