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Strong-Atheism: A fallacy?

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
Personally, I have been convinced by what I think is sound logic that the position of Strong-Atheism is a fallacy. I think the most reasonable position to hold is to be a Weak-Atheist/Agnostic.

If there are any Strong-Atheists here I'd be interested in changing your mind.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I'm a strong atheist. Feel free to try.

But before you do, would you classify yourself as a strong a-leprechaunist?
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Personally, I have been convinced by what I think is sound logic that the position of Strong-Atheism is a fallacy.
That depends on whether you view Strong-Atheism as a truth claim. Even then, Strong-Atheism is not the fallacy but, rather, the probable result of one.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
I'm a strong atheist. Feel free to try.

But before you do, would you classify yourself as a strong a-leprechaunist?

Nope, I'm a Weak-Aleprechaunist.

Let me ask you why you hold the statement, "There is no God." to be a truth. Then we can go from there.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
There are several reasons.

Of all the models of God that I know of, there are inherent contradictions (such as the problem of suffering, how free will can exist with an omniscient God etc) that lead to a paradoxical God.

There is, of course, a lack of evidence of God, as well as quite a bit of evidence that the texts about him are based on false claims and have been doctored to present a biased viewpoint.

There is also science which has shown that there isn't really a need for a God, as well as explaining that the things which were once attributed to God are actually just the universe following the laws of science - known widely as the God of the Gaps.

So I have come to the conclusion that a God is not required. And even if there is a God, it isn't required to believe in it, so non-belief is the more logical, as far as I am concerned.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
I agree with everything in your post, but there is a difference between not believing in a God and believing there actually is no God. Are you the latter?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Nope, I'm a Weak-Aleprechaunist.

Let me ask you why you hold the statement, "There is no God." to be a truth. Then we can go from there.

I am a materialist
Contradictions do not exist in material reality.
Every definition of god I`ve found is in itself a contradiction.


Therefore god does not exist
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I agree with everything in your post, but there is a difference between not believing in a God and believing there actually is no God. Are you the latter?

I believe the difference is as relevant as the difference between agnostics and atheists.
Not very relevant at all.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
I am a materialist
Contradictions do not exist in material reality.
Every definition of god I`ve found is in itself a contradiction.


Therefore god does not exist

Every definition that you've heard so far is a contradiction, but that doesn't mean all definitions are. It's possible there is a God out there and we've simply been describing It all wrong.

I believe the difference is as relevant as the difference between agnostics and atheists.
Not very relevant at all.

If one is a fallacy and the other is not, it's very relevant.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
I believe there is no God.

To demonstrate how I think this is a fallacious position, I will give an analogy of a man on a beach.

A man with a metal detector is walking along a beach searching for a plastic ball buried somewhere in the sand. The man's metal detector is extremely powerful. As powerful as a metal detector may be, in fact. The man visits this beach every day with his metal detector searching for this plastic ball. He does this for 50 years and never finds it. Therefore, the man concludes, the plastic ball doesn't exist because all his exhaustive efforts to find it so far have shown no evidence of it.

However, logic would tell us that it's still possible that this plastic ball is there. Just because there's no evidence of it doesn't prove its non-existence. To assert so would be the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

The best we can say about God is that we don't know. Of course, we should still go on with our lives as if there is no God. We can still disbelieve that there is one. We merely can not assert that there is no God.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Every definition that you've heard so far is a contradiction, but that doesn't mean all definitions are. It's possible there is a God out there and we've simply been describing It all wrong.

It`s also possible the tooth fairy has merely been on sick leave for the past 3000 years and our parents have been filling in.
I`ll give it credence when I see the evidence.



If one is a fallacy and the other is not, it's very relevant.

You`ve yet to supply a rationally realistic premise for the conclusion that "one is a fallacy"
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
However, logic would tell us that it's still possible that this plastic ball is there. Just because there's no evidence of it doesn't prove its non-existence. To assert so would be the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

"Proof" is subjective concerning all of us when considering worldviews.

You cannot "prove" I do not have a troupe of homophobic cross dressing midgets performing acts of levitation in my studio right now.

It is not however "wrong" to state I`m lying if I say they`re here.

To allow the frame of mind you seem to be promoting is to disregard rational thought as something akin to "gossip".

It`s worthless and leads one no where.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
You cannot "prove" I do not have a troupe of homophobic cross dressing midgets performing acts of levitation in my studio right now.

"X is false because there is no proof that X is true."

It's the argument from ignorance.

I could prove you wrong if I was there, but I'm not. So though I'm very inclined to not believe you, I can't say your premise is false with absolute certainty.

Conversely, we can not say with certainty that there is no God. It is simply a question we should not bother ourselves with in the first place.

Now I think it bears repeating that I am an Atheist as well and understand where you're coming from. I think the idea of a God is ridiculous. Still, if we are going to use logic to debate people, we can't be caught using a fallacy ourselves.

So as much as either of us may dislike it, to say there is no God because there's no evidence that there is a God is a fallacy.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
To demonstrate how I think this is a fallacious position, I will give an analogy of a man on a beach.

A man with a metal detector is walking along a beach searching for a plastic ball buried somewhere in the sand. The man's metal detector is extremely powerful. As powerful as a metal detector may be, in fact. The man visits this beach every day with his metal detector searching for this plastic ball. He does this for 50 years and never finds it. Therefore, the man concludes, the plastic ball doesn't exist because all his exhaustive efforts to find it so far have shown no evidence of it.

However, logic would tell us that it's still possible that this plastic ball is there. Just because there's no evidence of it doesn't prove its non-existence. To assert so would be the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

The best we can say about God is that we don't know. Of course, we should still go on with our lives as if there is no God. We can still disbelieve that there is one. We merely can not assert that there is no God.

And how is this an appropriate analogy? You seem to be saying that the man can't find the PLASTIC beacball because he is using a METAL detector, implying that we are using the wrong tools to find God.

Firstly, how have you determined that we are using the wrong tools to find God? Maybe we're using the RIGHT tools, and haven't found God because there is no God to find?

To continue your analogy, let's say the man was looking for a metal coin, but he doesn't find it after searching the whole beach. There are two possible explanations.

  1. He is using the wrong tool.
  2. The coin just isn't there

Now, you've completely discounted one of these options, but given absolutely no justification as to WHY you've discounted that option. Please justify it before proceeding.

Oh, and before you say, "Maybe he hasn't searched the entire beach yet," let me point out that there are certain times when we don't need to conduct a complete search to know something isn't there.

Allow me to use my own analogy.

Imagine a swimming pool. You want to know if there is any water in the pool. You only need to look in a small area of the pool to know if there is water in it - the bottom of the pool. After all, you know where the water will be if there is water in the pool - on the bottom of the pool. Even if the pool is full to the brim, there will be water at the bottom. You know that the water won't be floating a foot above the bottom. So if you check the entire bottom surface of the pool and find no water on that bottom surface, you know for a fact that there's no water in the pool.

The point made by this analogy is this: If we know where evidence for a particular thing MUST exist, and we look for that evidence in that place and find nothing, then we can say that the thing does not exist.

Applied to the pool...

If we know water in a swimming pool MUST be on the bottom of the pool, and we look for that water at the bottom of the pool and find nothing, then we can say that there is no water in the pool.

Another example? Okay.

A full grown African elephant sitting on my computer.

There is evidence that MUST exist if there is a full grown African elephant sitting on my computer - a crushed computer (if you can think of a way to have a full grown African elephant sitting on my computer without crushing it, I'd sure like to know).

So, if my computer is NOT crushed, I can safely say that there is no full grown African elephant sitting on my computer.

And we can apply it to God as well.

If we know where evidence for God MUST exist, and we look for that evidence in that place and find nothing, then we can say that God does not exist.

So, the question comes down to "Is there anything which claims that evidence of God exists in the real world?"

And the answer is YES. It's called the Bible. And there are texts for other religions as well.

The Bible gives plenty examples of things which, if found, would provide a huge amount of support for Christianity. Noah's Ark (the Bible tells us where it should be), the foundations for the tower of Babel. The Ark of the Covenant. The Holy Grail. However, none of these things have been found. Indeed, apart from the Bible, there's no evidence that they even exist!

Secondly, assuming God exists, he's given us a great tool to find out about the universe - the ability to Reason. And yet, this tool does not indicate God at all. The only way we can get any indication of God is by using Faith - a completely unreliable tool which gives no verifiable results at all. I mean, just look at the huge numbers of different beliefs out there! The polytheistic Hindu faith, the monotheistic Muslim faith, and even among Christianity, there are so many different interpretations - not just between denominations, but even in the same denomination. How can there be any reliable way of using faith to determine anything? Faith, by it's very nature, can never show ANYTHING to be true. It's little more than wishful thinking.

So, your analogy is flawed. You say that I am using the wrong tools to look for God, but the only tool that will ever indicate the existence of God is completely unreliable. And even if you use an applicable analogy, you've failed to consider every possibility.

Try again please!

"X is false because there is no proof that X is true."

It's the argument from ignorance.

How about this: "X is false because the proof which MUST be there if X is true is absent."
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Still, if we are going to use logic to debate people, we can't be caught using a fallacy ourselves....

...as much as either of us may dislike it, to say there is no God because there's no evidence that there is a God is a fallacy.
It may be fallacious reasoning, but it may also be rational and justified belief. I imagine it hinges on how god is defined.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
Well Tiberius, I never claimed it was the Christian God that existed. Just a God.

This God could have two attributes. One is that it is in a higher dimension and because we can not travel into these other dimensions it's impossible for us to look inside of them. So yes, we may have insufficient tools. Secondly, I never said this God had to interact with man at all. It may have nothing to do with us.

So, if these two things were the case there is no way we could ever possibly find It. It's not a testable hypothesis and is forever safe. We just can't disprove this God.

I think this is why theists have made up these attributes for God. They kept pushing God backward until It went outside of logic, in a way. Have they moved the goal-post? Of course they have. Is there any reason whatsoever to believe there is a God? Of course not. Still, this definition of God is unfalsifiable and unfortunately makes claiming the non-existence of God to be a certain truth or even highly probable a fallacy.

You would have to show beyond any doubt that you are looking in the right place with the right tools. Even though this God supposedly has the power to hide Itself.

We just have to face it. How God is defined today is illogical and is forever safe from being disproven.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
A god who is not all powerful is useless and doesn't deserve worship for worships sake, a god who is all powerful defies all logic and the laws of nature, making it impossible. Therefore is there is a "god" it is not worthy of worship as it can't do much anyway.
 

Prometheus

Semper Perconctor
A god who is not all powerful is useless and doesn't deserve worship for worships sake, a god who is all powerful defies all logic and the laws of nature, making it impossible. Therefore is there is a "god" it is not worthy of worship as it can't do much anyway.

That all comes down to each persons opinion as we have no measurement for what is "worshipable."

Also, this isn't an argument about if a God exists, not if it deserves worship.
 
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