Struggling with western Buddhism

[Dorothy Dandridge]

I wish I had an outlet to speak with other Buddhists.

I love Buddhism: the sutras, Buddha's words, the poem and sutra patterns, the meditations, the ethics, the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path. It all just fits me. But I struggle with western Buddhists because western Buddhists are often so interested not so much in the ethics and actual doctrine and religion of Buddhism, but the meditation and not-self, intellectualism, and secularism to it, which is not inherently bad. But then they claim to be Buddhist while not having compassion even for the poor, as seen on r/buddhism recently.

I have compassion for them, for I feel that they are ignorant and foolish. But it still doesn't change the overall narrative of western Buddhism. From my experience, western Buddhism is obsessed with fads and selfish desires, and they use Buddhism to defend these points of view by way of suggesting that Buddhism is about contentment or only about nirvana. While those two things are important Buddhism, it comes off as if they feel they can buy their way to it through exclusivity. My local Zen Center has a sesshin at least once a month, it's ridiculous. They have memberships there, and the members act as if they all belong to a unique special club. The centers tend to focus on an exclusive subset niche, that being well off educated white people.

I remember that I should have compassion for them, but it still doesn't account for the distinct lack of emphasis on displaying compassion for others through metta via volunteering or having an organized group that helps people. I signed up for my Zen Center's equivalent of that, and asked when they'd be doing something. They said they didn't know and that the group was currently defunct. Meanwhile, the Zen Center continues to have Sesshin after Sesshin and very little in actual charity work, so I end up volunteering by myself.

These people talk about meditation and non self and more but the Zen Center itself rarely consults or examines the sutras.

It makes me question what I'm doing anymore. It seems everyone is so interesting in mindfulness and being "present" and not being compassionate towards all beings. I'm not judging, and maybe it's just my Zen Center, or maybe something wrong with Zen period, but it's a notable observation I have made and it makes me question my future in the religion. I love the actual religion, but the people - the sangha - for which Buddhism heavily says you be a part of, is something else entirely. For the time being, I'm going to be examining other branches of Buddhism and other Zen Centers. Hopefully I can find a place where people actually seem to care beyond participating in the next weekend sit or whatever.

I have searched online for Online Sangha's and have found no such luck. It makes me sad that for such a large religion, the online community is relatively dead and not nearly as active as say, the Christian one.

 

[Mequa]

As a former practitioner of Buddhism, I can relate to a lot of your experiences.

Given my strict Christian background, I had problems with - and still have problems with - Buddhist ethics. Too much emphasis on self-abnegation and mandatory compassion which I personally find quite toxic, and it filled me with guilt.
The Four Noble Truths indeed has a lot of truth in it. The meditation practices were toxic for me personally, I posted about my experiences there elsewhere. Eightfold Path - too rigid for me. Doctrine and dogma - toxic to me. Sutras - not for me.

Again, this is going by my own experiences, I can see how others might find aspects of Buddhism helpful. My experiences above are only a problem for those who think everyone should be a Buddhist.

As for your experiences with the Sangha - 100%. I found some incredibly selfish and hypocritical people there myself. My stomach literally still churns to think about it a decade on.

I remember this guy who I initially got on well with, then he cut me off as a friend after telling me I am "needy". His Buddhist-y reasoning though just took the hypocritical cake. He told me he had abundant Metta flowing in his heart for me, that his compassion was all working well and flowing, and he "wished me well" as he cut me off - with no genuine concern for my feelings as I went away badly hurt after his callousness. His "Metta" was nothing more than a way to make him feel good about himself. I wanted to tell him: "If you told me to **** off I'd have more respect for you."

Good riddance to fake people.

I could post much more on my experiences too, but this is plenty for now.

Edit: My relevant posts are here on my experiences:
Does Buddhism "deny the self"? | ReligiousForums.com
Does Buddhism "deny the self"? | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

This dog eat dog philosophy is the exact thing I hate about western culture and how it ties into Buddhism specifically.

 

[crossfire]

I wish I had an outlet to speak with other Buddhists.

I love Buddhism: the sutras, Buddha's words, the poem and sutra patterns, the meditations, the ethics, the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path. It all just fits me. But I struggle with western Buddhists because western Buddhists are often so interested not so much in the ethics and actual doctrine and religion of Buddhism, but the meditation and not-self, intellectualism, and secularism to it, which is inherently bad. But then they claim to be Buddhist while not having compassion even for the poor, as seen on r/buddhism recently.

I have compassion for them, for I feel that they are ignorant and foolish. But it still doesn't change the overall narrative of western Buddhism. From my experience, western Buddhism is obsessed with fads and selfish desires, and they use Buddhism to defend these points of view by way of suggesting that Buddhism is about contentment or only about nirvana. While those two things are important Buddhism, it comes off as if they feel they can buy their way to it through exclusivity. My local Zen Center has a sesshin at least once a month, it's ridiculous. They have memberships there, and the members act as if they all belong to a unique special club. The centers tend to focus on an exclusive subset niche, that being well off educated white people.

I remember that I should have compassion for them, but it still doesn't account for the distinct lack of emphasis on displaying compassion for others through metta via volunteering or having an organized group that helps people. I signed up for my Zen Center's equivalent of that, and asked when they'd be doing something. They said they didn't know and that the group was currently defunct. Meanwhile, the Zen Center continues to have Sesshin after Sesshin and very little in actual charity work, so I end up volunteering by myself.

These people talk about meditation and non self and more but the Zen Center itself rarely consults or examines the sutras.

It makes me question what I'm doing anymore. It seems everyone is so interesting in mindfulness and being "present" and not being compassionate towards all beings. I'm not judging, and maybe it's just my Zen Center, or maybe something wrong with Zen period, but it's a notable observation I have made and it makes me question my future in the religion. I love the actual religion, but the people - the sangha - for which Buddhism heavily says you be a part of, is something else entirely. For the time being, I'm going to be examining other branches of Buddhism and other Zen Centers. Hopefully I can find a place where people actually seem to care beyond participating in the next weekend sit or whatever.

I have searched online for Online Sangha's and have found no such luck. It makes me sad that for such a large religion, the online community is relatively dead and not nearly as active as say, the Christian one.

You might want to go check out the Liberal Quakers.

 

[dave_]

This dog eat dog philosophy is the exact thing I hate about western culture and how it ties into Buddhism specifically.

Sorry i deleted my post.I made a promise not to make any posts thats not related to suffering.I am determined to decrease my suffering so i can live my darkest desires.I don't actually suffer mentall but i am still afraid of physical suffering.I am planning to master non attachment and master physical suffering and live my desires.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Sorry i deleted my post.I made a promise not to make any posts thats not related to suffering.I am determined to decrease my suffering so i can live my darkest desires.I don't actually suffer mentall but i am still afraid of physical suffering.I am planning to master non attachment and master physical suffering and live my desires.

In any case, compassion is important because it's always important to never lose sight of the fact that all people and beings ultimately are just living their lives as well. I find that it challenges me to become a better person who considers others viewpoints. I can understand your view. It's hard to have compassion for people that hate you, but they're the best people to practice it on.

You might want to go check out the Liberal Quakers.

I'm confused?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I completely agree with you. When I started with Buddhism I went into Zen. I learned about non self, non label, and ao forth. What they are missing is Zen is a cultural practice as with all Buddhist sects. When you separate Viatnameaw, Chinese, Japanese culture from the faith, its, in my opinion, empty.

I experienced this mostly in Nicheren Buddhism. I am reading thr Lotus Sutra, to which are from the Buddha. Im also reading Nichiren Diashionis letters. Hes a Japanese Buddhist monk who sumed up the teachings of the Buddha into one phrase or chant. Nichiren Buddhist chant to a scroll he made from the ceremony in the air in the Lotus Sutta.

What bothers me about SGI and Shoshu (sects) is they do not focus on the Buddhas teachijgs. Rather, the former listen to their organization president Ikeda and focus on happiness and material gain. The latter says Nichiren is a reincarnation of the original Buddha.

I always thought a good idea to have a sutra study (like bible study) I wish we can actually talk about the suttas and how to apply the Buddhas teachings in our lives.

Here is a link with Buddhist temples, centers, etc in the us. Visit some of the temples if there are some close. They have a better hold on the Buddhas teachinga than I see in many centers here.

World Buddhist Directory - Presented by BuddhaNet.Net

I wish I had an outlet to speak with other Buddhists.

I love Buddhism: the sutras, Buddha's words, the poem and sutra patterns, the meditations, the ethics, the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path. It all just fits me. But I struggle with western Buddhists because western Buddhists are often so interested not so much in the ethics and actual doctrine and religion of Buddhism, but the meditation and not-self, intellectualism, and secularism to it, which is inherently bad. But then they claim to be Buddhist while not having compassion even for the poor, as seen on r/buddhism recently.

I have compassion for them, for I feel that they are ignorant and foolish. But it still doesn't change the overall narrative of western Buddhism. From my experience, western Buddhism is obsessed with fads and selfish desires, and they use Buddhism to defend these points of view by way of suggesting that Buddhism is about contentment or only about nirvana. While those two things are important Buddhism, it comes off as if they feel they can buy their way to it through exclusivity. My local Zen Center has a sesshin at least once a month, it's ridiculous. They have memberships there, and the members act as if they all belong to a unique special club. The centers tend to focus on an exclusive subset niche, that being well off educated white people.

I remember that I should have compassion for them, but it still doesn't account for the distinct lack of emphasis on displaying compassion for others through metta via volunteering or having an organized group that helps people. I signed up for my Zen Center's equivalent of that, and asked when they'd be doing something. They said they didn't know and that the group was currently defunct. Meanwhile, the Zen Center continues to have Sesshin after Sesshin and very little in actual charity work, so I end up volunteering by myself.

These people talk about meditation and non self and more but the Zen Center itself rarely consults or examines the sutras.

It makes me question what I'm doing anymore. It seems everyone is so interesting in mindfulness and being "present" and not being compassionate towards all beings. I'm not judging, and maybe it's just my Zen Center, or maybe something wrong with Zen period, but it's a notable observation I have made and it makes me question my future in the religion. I love the actual religion, but the people - the sangha - for which Buddhism heavily says you be a part of, is something else entirely. For the time being, I'm going to be examining other branches of Buddhism and other Zen Centers. Hopefully I can find a place where people actually seem to care beyond participating in the next weekend sit or whatever.

I have searched online for Online Sangha's and have found no such luck. It makes me sad that for such a large religion, the online community is relatively dead and not nearly as active as say, the Christian one.

 

[LuisDantas]

I struggle with western Buddhists because western Buddhists are often so interested not so much in the ethics and actual doctrine and religion of Buddhism, but the meditation and not-self, intellectualism, and secularism to it, which is inherently bad. But then they claim to be Buddhist while not having compassion even for the poor, as seen on r/buddhism recently.

Do you see secularism as somehow at odds with Buddhist practice? May I ask you to elaborate on how and why, if so?

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Do you see secularism as somehow at odds with Buddhist practice? May I ask you to elaborate on how and why, if so?

Secularism by itself is fine. I myself am secular. What we are describing is not secularism, however. But a lot of western Buddhists think it is enough if they just meditate, when the majority of Buddhism is meditation combined with a core ethical base that you practice on. They have stripped Buddhism of what makes Buddhism a whole, and only seek the attaining enlightenment, as if it's some easy thing obtained through an acid trip. Buddhism, without ethics, is not Buddhism, and singling it down to simple catch all phrases like 'mindfulness' or 'non-self' rather than study and examination of the self and our universe and our place in it is reductionist and highly intelligently dishonest. You can see just as much in the Mindfulness movement. They have stripped mindfulness of all agenda and power and goal, and have made it simply about being present. No longer is mindfulness about deep mind training and questioning your actions, your loved ones actions, and being mindful of others, why you need this, why you need that, and examining your mind and everything within your frame of view with a scientific and ethical mind but just being present. Such vapidity is its own unmaking, because as I type this sentence the 'present' is now five seconds past and is now the past.

A much more in depth article on this subject can be found here, it is a great read.

Which Mindfulness? | Tricycle

"Without wisdom and compassion, mindfulness is no big deal - even bank robbers or snipers need to be mindful. The power of mindfulness, as used in Buddhist practice, is cultivating it to check our mind and motivation."
-Robina Courtin

That said, I hold no large issue with the mindfulness movement, I just wish they were more honest and wouldn't describe a mere interest in simply meditation as being Buddhist.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Somebody tell me what's substantial by which Buddhism and Buddhists in the west whom practice meditation, is determined as being insufficient for realisation.

I understand preservation of sutras and writings, and a discipline concerning the four noble truths and eightfold path, yet honestly it's not going to make you anymore in tune with eastern Buddhism. Whatever that is supposed to be through which western practices fall short.

There is no incomplete practice simply due to one who centers on Zazen and nothing else.

The struggling western Buddha. I like it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This dog eat dog philosophy is the exact thing I hate about western culture and how it ties into Buddhism specifically.

There's a peculiar problem if there's a dog that actually eats dogs. ;0]

 

[Osal]

Community-oriented sanghas aren't uncommon. My sangha has people who are therapists, doctors, dentists and those who work in environmental science. We have a regular avtivity feeding the homeless. Im thinking about getting some folks to participate in adopting a stretch of highway. There is a lot of participating in the arts, too. A bunch of people whose practice informs their community involvement.

We also have one group practice a week, several tantric practices a month, and biweekly teaching by our resident acharya.

The local Shambhala sanghas are very active.

Dont know much about the Zen folks.

Keep looking.

Or not.

I wish I had an outlet to speak with other Buddhists.

I love Buddhism: the sutras, Buddha's words, the poem and sutra patterns, the meditations, the ethics, the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path. It all just fits me. But I struggle with western Buddhists because western Buddhists are often so interested not so much in the ethics and actual doctrine and religion of Buddhism, but the meditation and not-self, intellectualism, and secularism to it, which is inherently bad. But then they claim to be Buddhist while not having compassion even for the poor, as seen on r/buddhism recently.

I have compassion for them, for I feel that they are ignorant and foolish. But it still doesn't change the overall narrative of western Buddhism. From my experience, western Buddhism is obsessed with fads and selfish desires, and they use Buddhism to defend these points of view by way of suggesting that Buddhism is about contentment or only about nirvana. While those two things are important Buddhism, it comes off as if they feel they can buy their way to it through exclusivity. My local Zen Center has a sesshin at least once a month, it's ridiculous. They have memberships there, and the members act as if they all belong to a unique special club. The centers tend to focus on an exclusive subset niche, that being well off educated white people.

I remember that I should have compassion for them, but it still doesn't account for the distinct lack of emphasis on displaying compassion for others through metta via volunteering or having an organized group that helps people. I signed up for my Zen Center's equivalent of that, and asked when they'd be doing something. They said they didn't know and that the group was currently defunct. Meanwhile, the Zen Center continues to have Sesshin after Sesshin and very little in actual charity work, so I end up volunteering by myself.

These people talk about meditation and non self and more but the Zen Center itself rarely consults or examines the sutras.

It makes me question what I'm doing anymore. It seems everyone is so interesting in mindfulness and being "present" and not being compassionate towards all beings. I'm not judging, and maybe it's just my Zen Center, or maybe something wrong with Zen period, but it's a notable observation I have made and it makes me question my future in the religion. I love the actual religion, but the people - the sangha - for which Buddhism heavily says you be a part of, is something else entirely. For the time being, I'm going to be examining other branches of Buddhism and other Zen Centers. Hopefully I can find a place where people actually seem to care beyond participating in the next weekend sit or whatever.

I have searched online for Online Sangha's and have found no such luck. It makes me sad that for such a large religion, the online community is relatively dead and not nearly as active as say, the Christian one.

 

[crossfire]

I'm confused?

If you are having issues with Western Buddhists, try the Liberal Quakers. They do a lot of charity work.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have compassion for them, for I feel that they are ignorant and foolish.

That is not right thinking, that is pride. Not all will take up the job of helping others. The 'Pratyeka Buddhas' understand that but do not engage in passing on the dharma to other people. The 'Samyakasama Buddhas' like Gautama refuse nirvana to help other people. So, leave it to people as to what they do. Different people will do different things. Decide your course of action. I am not a Buddhist but say this according to my information. If I am wrong, Buddhists may kindly correct me. Gautama is one of my gurus.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Hopefully I can find a place where people actually seem to care beyond participating in the next weekend sit or whatever.

There are Buddhist groups which are more socially engaged, Triratna and Thich Nhat Hanh for example.

This site might be helpful in exploring what's available in your area: World Buddhist Directory - Presented by BuddhaNet.Net

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

That is not right thinking, that is pride. Not all will take up the job of helping others. The 'Pratyeka Buddhas' understand that but do not engage in passing on the dharma to other people. The 'Samyakasama Buddhas' like Gautama refuse nirvana to help other people. So, leave it to people as to what they do. Different people will do different things. Decide your course of action. I am not a Buddhist but say this according to my information. If I am wrong, Buddhists may kindly correct me. Gautama is one of my gurus.

What I am experiencing is not pride. Ignorance is one of the main hindrances in Buddhism. In Buddhism, it is ignorance that is the root of all evil. When I call them ignorant or fools, I am not insulting them, as you may assume, because I too sometimes act ignorant and foolish. Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert or a guru, but here are some excerpts (haha, that rhymed).

As for fool, it was not an insult. Buddha goes into this quite a bit.

'I have sons, I have wealth' — the fool torments himself.
When even he himself doesn't belong to himself, how then sons? How wealth?
-Dhammapada Verse 62

"Monks, a fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It is through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines.

"A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. A person endowed with these three things is to be recognized as a fool.

"A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. A person endowed with these three things is to be recognized as a wise person.

"Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Who said anything about these people being Buddha's? You say your guru is the Buddha, and you say that if you don't want to help others, you don't have to, but this is one of the cornerstones of Buddhist thought. We're not talking about Buddha's who are solitary and just don't want to teach people how to reach awakening. These people aren't solitary, they're actively engaging with the Buddhist community. We are talking about people who lack care for their fellow man. These are two separate things, because even a Buddha cares for other people.

If you have somehow gotten that being a Buddha means that you can choose not to help people - and I'm not talking about helping them obtain enlightenment - I'm not sure what Buddhist literature you have been consuming:

Kucchivikara-vatthu: The Monk with Dysentery

As for the context of this thread, my overall point is that many of the Buddhists at my Zen center keep to themselves. They don't have anything about outreach or community oriented projects on their websites, just workshops on how to obtain contentment in our daily lives. I have looked at other Zen Centers around the area, and their schedules are similar.

There are Buddhist groups which are more socially engaged, Triratna and Thich Nhat Hanh for example.

This site might be helpful in exploring what's available in your area: World Buddhist Directory - Presented by BuddhaNet.Net

Carlita posted it. There's quite a few places I didn't know about in the Houston area. However, all the Zen places I've seen still only advertise workshops and meditation sits. So far I'm not finding anything more socially engaged in my area. Perhaps I will have to deal with it until I move to another place, but instead I'm branching out and looking into Theravada. Zen's lack of emphasis on scripture and its solitary "keep to yourself" nature doesn't appeal to me. I think I may be in the wrong tradition, and I am going to be seeking out Theravadan places to visit and see how they are. Of course, I'm going to be emailing all Zen Centers my qualms so they may correct me and help direct me if they choose.

I agree with the HHDL when he says,"I believe that Buddhism has a big role to play in the world today, and I am impatient because Buddhists don't seem to realize that."

Here's an example of what I am referring to:

Houston Zen Center

Look for anything related to community outreach and participating in a community beyond the Buddhist one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nice post. Spiny has written about organizations that emphasize on 'karuna'.

 

[BSM1]

The Dalai Lama seems to believe that you don't have to abandon you culture, dress, upbringing, etc., to practice Buddhism; especially when it comes to Westerners. Check out some of his ideas on the subject if you get a chance.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Excluding the negatives will only serve to cheat yourself out of an effective engauged practice.

I lot of people don't care for Zen due to it's uncomfortable sterile approach by which dharma is practiced and consequently end up practicing avoidance. Zen is not easy in face of the biting and screaming monkey.
Some people can't handle it due to strong ego and I'm no exception.

Don't confuse new age caf'e type "Zen" with experiencing the real McCoy as it plays out. The cappuccino is terrible.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

I have emailed all the local Houston sangha's listed on World Buddhist Directory. We will see how it goes.

Excluding the negatives will only serve to cheat yourself out of an effective engauged practice.

What negatives? What are you referring to here?