In the U.S. Black people do get arrested and convicted at a much higher rate than white people. But I am not convinced they commit more crime.
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Students Are Pushing Back Against Gender Ideology In Their Schools
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, I suspected that. Now you don't have to learn that to have a good enough life or any of that. But you do need to learn how it works, if you want to understand with general science how to connect physical, chemical, biological, social, psychological and good versus harm.
But I won't demand that of you or treat you as wrong or any of that.
Rather if you want to learn it as you really want that, then there is a couple of us around who give you the words, but it is upon you to learn it. Again not that you have to as such, but you can only learn it if you want to.
Regards
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, it is bit more complex than just white and black as single causal factors.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
It doesn't matter what "we" want. History tells us it what happens, because it is what always happens
Firstly, none of this anything to do with what I have written. I've never mentioned "averages" or how they work in terms of social gender roles. I have no idea why you'd bring racial crime statistics into a debate about gender roles. Nobody thinks it's a black person's "role" to commit crime (well, except for racists, perhaps), and nobody is arguing that the roles of men or women are determined by some sort of statistical analysis.
Secondly, race doesn't carry the same social cache as gender does. There aren't different pronouns for white and black people. The social expectations for black people have not been rigidly defined by their function as half of a reproductive biological process for thousands of years. Generally, if a black person wants to do things that are "not considered black", it is looked down upon significantly less than, say, a man putting on a dress. These things simply aren't equatable in terms of how much society has played a role in shaping the expected roles of each category.
I've not suggested we do that. I've never talked about "average behaviour". I am talking about expectations and archetypes. These are by no means "average behaviours" as much as they are EXPECTED behaviours.
Then let them use whatever pronoun and adopt whatever gender they want.
I agree. So let people associate with whatever group they want and judge them as individuals rather than forming assumptions about them as a member of a group. That doesn't mean that individuals can't decide for themselves "I feel better/more accurately defined when considered a member of this particular social category". What you are suggesting does nothing but take away the ability for people to make that choice. If you don't want to judge people based on their gender association, bully for you. You can still do that and respect trans people's decision to be identified as whatever gender they wish. In fact, I would argue that if that is genuinely your position then you absolutely SHOULD accept trans people's genders and associations, and to deliberately NOT do that is absolutely contrary to the belief that you should not make judgements about their individual liberty.
But it is an extremely reductive, inaccurate and generally harmful way of socially categorising people.
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Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
It has already been dealt with sufficiently in this thread. I'm sorry that you aren't satisfied with the list of terms you've been supplied with in the past, but I don't see how your questions bring anything of relevance to the discussion.
Lawmakers have always provided restrictions on all our freedoms, including religion and speech, but that does not mean that just any restriction is a constitutionally valid law or has a clear civic purpose. The laws being passed in state legislatures to ban health care for transgender individuals are outrageously discriminatory, and I have yet to see anyone articulate a valid reason for them other than to disagree with the consensus among medical professionals on grounds of politics, not science.
You seem to be under the impression there is a consensus amongst doctors and medical professions concerning this issue; there is not. Many European nations are restricting such medical procedures on minors, Vanderbilt Medical facilities are restricting on minors as well. This is not a medical profession against law maker issue, this is a medical professional vs medical professional issue, and different states go with different medical professionals.
Increasing Number Of European Nations Adopt A More Cautious Approach To Gender-Affirming Care Among Minors
For several years, Europe has been moving in a different direction from the U.S., as Europeans exercise greater restraint when treating children with gender dysphoria.www.forbes.com
It is true that the subject of transgender care is controversial in other countries and even among health care professionals, just as there are disagreements regarding all sorts of medical care--for example, AIDS treatment, contraception, vaccinations, and abortion. However, there seems to be strong support in the US in the general public and among medical professionals for giving special medical care to those diagnosed with transgender conditions. Generally speaking, the laws passed in state legislatures tend to be more about the politics of acknowledging the validity of those diagnoses than debate within the medical profession. Professionals can always disagree about medical treatment, but legislators should only get involved when those treatments affect the general well-being of the public. These laws are only intended to discriminate against a small minority of the population, and withholding such care can have dire consequences for those individuals and their loved ones.
I remarked that the states were denying medical care to address the needs of transgender individuals, and you responded "The state see it as a medical want; not a need." That suggested to me that you felt the same way, but you can deny that, if you think I've misrepresented you. You are affirming that the legislators are denying there is a need, even though medical science suggests the opposite. My position is that the legislators have no reasonable grounds to stand in the way of the patients, their families, and the doctors treating them. If you want to side with the legislators, then I don't think I was reading too much into your response.
You don't know what laws I was referring to? I was responding to this remark from you:
"Well obviously in those states, they say there is compelling social purpose to justify that interference."
We were discussing laws designed to interfere with transgender care. I asked you to tell me what you thought that compelling social purpose was, and your response now is to say that you don't know what laws you were referring to when you said that they had a compelling social purpose.
According to the FBI Crime stats, Blacks are over represented in every category except alcohol related offenses; to include 52% of murders, and 56% of robberies (more than all other races combined) while only representing 12.5% of the population
Table 43
ucr.fbi.gov
What do you think causes the brain to have thought?
Aren't those more of a study rather than an actual scientific theory?
No, I brought that up because that is how stereotype gender roles are established. On average more females do “X” more males do “Y” so “X” becomes associated with females and “Y” becomes associate with males.
Because race is an example of us not doing what you claim always happens. On average more blacks do “X” more whites do”Y” but we don’t associate “X” with being black, or “Y” with being white.
It doesn’t have to; my point is if we can refrain from developing specific roles and expectations for people along racial lines, we can refrain from doing it along sex lines as well
I disagree did you not see all the carnage many of those black men went through who voted for Trump? It depends on where you look; in a big city a black man putting on a dress will receive far more support than a black man who votes republican; but in a small town the dress might get more dislikes.
And where do these expected behaviors come from? The fact that certain jobs women are expected to work? Certain jobs men are expected to work. Certain chores around the house women are expected to preform, certain chores for men. Where does these expectations come from?
If it were limited to them adopting a pronoun and them adopting a gender, I doubt there would be so much of a problem. Unfortunately they demand everybody else go along with it too.
Before my grandpa died, he suffered from dementia and became convinced the guy on TV was talking to him. Just because I accepted he believed this does not mean I had to go along with it.
Health care is not being banned for trans people. There are and always have been specific types of medical procedures that are banned for everybody.
No; it’s controversial in all countries, even this one. So let’s quit acting as if there is a consensus on this subject.
Define “special medical care”.
Before I respond, are these states banning care for Adults? Or only for children. If they are banning care for adults also, please list some states doing this.
Yes. You were talking about some states banning such care, I don’t know the states in question, nor whatever laws that were passed, so I can’t give their reasons for doing it. I was only suggesting a reason why they might be doing such a thing.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
No, it isn't. Social expectations aren't a result of average behaviours. The average woman farts multiple times a day. But that doesn't mean that there's a SOCIAL EXPECTATION for women to fart. Think about it for more than five minutes.
That's not how these things develop. Social expectations aren't a result of some weird derivation from statistical averages. Humans aren't calculators.
What always happens WITHIN GENDER CATEGORIES. Race is not a gender category. We don't refer to eachother BY each other's race and refer to each other with pronouns determined by race.
See above. These things are completely disanalogous.
Once again, no. Because race doesn't affect our interactions with people anywhere near as much as gender does. And there ARE social expectations that develop for racial groups, too.
Do you seriously believe that black men voting for Trump get more public vitriol than men who wear dresses?
Initially, it's biodimorphic. Then you have thousands of years of history on top of that.
See above.
Why is that a problem? What does it matter to you?
Here you are equating actual delusion resulting from a physically degrading brain to a person simply wanting to be referred to as being within a particular social category.
This is where your true argument rears it's head. It's got nothing to do with individual freedom or refraining from making judgements about people - it's about your fundamental belief that there is something wrong or broken with trans people.
Get over that. Trans people are healthy, intelligent, capable people who simply wish to be seen as being part of a particular social category. That's it. It's not a imposition on you. Believe it or not, the world does not revolve around you. They just want to be accepted in the exact same way you expect others to accept you. You want to deny them that.
Buck up your ideas.
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You are aware that hermaphroditism exists in the human species, right?
Patrick66
Member
Is a person born with an anomaly with their reproductive organs classified differently with regard to their biological sex?
Can we say that a person born with six fingers is a new species of human or are they simply a human born with an anomaly?
There are no medical procedures trans people do that cis people don't also do. From puberty blockers to HRT, facial feminization or masculinizatiom surgeries, and even vaginoplasty, breast augmentation and phalloplasty (and even though those procedures are not cosmetic since theyre treating gender dysphoria, all of these procedures are done cosmetically for cis people.) But GOP lawmakers from Texas to Missouri to Florida are trying to ban the practice for transgender people, under the auspices of protecting kids (theyre not, some bans even orevent kids from seeking social transition, with no actual gender affirming treatment), when the regulation also impacts adults. Florida's ban on gender-affirming care for minors also limits access for trans adults Many States Are Trying to Restrict Gender Treatments for Adults, Too. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/poli...sitioning-for-transgender-youth-dg/index.html
Patrick66
Member
From Wikipedia:
Do hermaphrodites exist in the human species?
Hermaphrodism is not to be confused with intersexuality, which is a separate and unrelated phenomenon. The usage of the term hermaphrodite to describe intersex people is considered to be offensive, and it is also scientifically incorrect as hermaphrodism does not exist in humans.
If men rarely farted, but women did it all the time, there would be such a social expectation.
Then how do they develop?
Actually we do. I’ve been called a black man many times.
That’s because there are no racial pronouns. But my point is; just as we don’t have expectations concerning race, we don’t need to have expectations concerning gender either; especially when those expectations have a history of sexism.
Such as?
In my city they have a parade every year for men who like to wear dresses. I can only imagine the hostility ensuing in attempting to have a parade for men voting for Trump
If not behavior, what makes gender stereotypes biodimorphic?
Above is wrong.
Because truth matters. If you want to live a lie, I have no problem with that as long as you keep it to yourself. But you have no right to demand I sign off on and become an active participant in your lie. If I choose to do that; that's my choice but you have no right to demand that of me.
In the sense that they are both wrong concerning what they believe to be true? Yes!
Yes! They believe something about themselves that is not true. That’s why we have absurd responses like “a woman is a person who believe they are a woman” as an answer to what is a woman! How is this any less absurd than if I were to say a 12 year old is a person who believe they are 12? The fact is, there has to be objective realities in place in order for you to be given the age label 12; the same goes for woman. When you take away the objective realities associated with being a woman and make it completely subjective, you take away all meaning of what it means to be a woman and I find that unacceptable.