Students Are Pushing Back Against Gender Ideology In Their Schools

[Kfox]

I would say any claim that kids see being gay as just "getting attention and support" are pretty absurd.

I remember about 25 years ago I was at a friends house and I noticed his teenage daughter had a weird multi colored freaked-out hair cut. A little later, a friend of his daughter came over they went into another room and began talking while me and my friend watched TV. While in the other room I overheard his daughter show off her weird hair style and her friend said “WOW I bet your parents completely freaked out when they saw that didn’t they! His daughter responded; Naaw my parents are usually pretty cool with this sorta stuff. Then her friend asked; so…… why did you do it?
Never underestimate what a kid will do for attention.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To your somewhat vapid point, yes, to an extent, units of measure are arbitrary units at their point of inception.

Insipid is as insipid does.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Objective is based on facts, subjective is based on your thoughts. Whatever it is that you identify as, that is done via your thoughts; right?

No; I'm asking other than your thoughts, what else is involved in the act of identifying as something?

Well, it is a bit more complicated than a simple dicotomy of objective and subjective, because in a sense there are at least 2 different versions of subjective processes in a brain and that influences what is going on in regards to how people experience being an "I".

Now if you make a model of subjective processes then you have to differentiate between those that come to you as subjective thought, for which you don't have voluntary control over and those who can be effected by volutary control.

So the question is if say you are a heterosexual cis-gender male, if you control that you feel that or if that is outside your voluntary control?
What are your thoughts on that?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Objective is based on facts, subjective is based on your thoughts. Whatever it is that you identify as, that is done via your thoughts; right?

Yep. But the fact that two people identify as different things is still an objective difference.

Let's try a thought experiment.

There are two identical people in a room. They are identical in every way, including clothing and voice. You are a given mission; you must find an "objective difference" between these two people, but you are only allowed to ask them one question.

So, you go into the room.

Moments later, you return from the room and are asked what objective difference you discovered, and the answer you give is:

"I asked them both their favourite colour. One of them said their favourite colour is red, the other said their favourite colour is blue."

Now, how is that NOT an objective difference between those two people?

No; I'm asking other than your thoughts, what else is involved in the act of identifying as something?

The broader social context in which that thing exists.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yep. But the fact that two people identify as different things is still an objective difference.

Let's try a thought experiment.

There are two identical people in a room. They are identical in every way, including clothing and voice. You are a given mission; you must find an "objective difference" between these two people, but you are only allowed to ask them one question.

So, you go into the room.

Moments later, you return from the room and are asked what objective difference you discovered, and the answer you give is:

"I asked them both their favourite colour. One of them said their favourite colour is red, the other said their favourite colour is blue."

Now, how is that NOT an objective difference between those two people?


The broader social context in which that thing exists.

Well, it is a subjective difference in one sense and an objective in another.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well, it is a subjective difference in one sense and an objective in another.

I agree, but to say "these two people gave different responses this question" is every bit as much an "objective difference" as observing that they have, say, different coloured shirts or different accents. It is something you can point to and say "that is a difference". The problem is that, when talking about trans issues, the anti-trans will often make all sorts of claims about what is "OBJECTIVELY" true, when what they REALLY want to claim is that something is physical or biological in nature, rather than subjective.

The point I'm making is that "these people identify as different things" is every bit as objective a statement as "these people have different organs". To them, something being "objective" means that there has to be some dispassionate, physical, scientific, measurable quality to it, which just isn't the case in normal interactions. They just want everything to be seen through a physical, rather than sociological, lens, because it's easier for them to understand the world that way.

Or, they do it just because they know it hurts trans people, and they hate trans people. One of the two.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree, but to say "these two people gave different responses this question" is every bit as much an "objective difference" as observing that they have, say, different coloured shirts or different accents. It is something you can point to and say "that is a difference". The problem is that, when talking about trans issues, the anti-trans will often make all sorts of claims about what is "OBJECTIVELY" true, when what they REALLY want to claim is that something is physical or biological in nature, rather than subjective.

The point I'm making is that "these people identify as different things" is every bit as objective a statement as "these people have different organs". To them, something being "objective" means that there has to be some dispassionate, physical, scientific, measurable quality to it, which just isn't the case in normal interactions. They just want everything to be seen through a physical, rather than sociological, lens, because it's easier for them to understand the world that way.

Or, they do it just because they know it hurts trans people, and they hate trans people. One of the two.

Well, I get what you are saying, But we diagree. And, no, I am as woke as it gets when it comes to rights. We just have a different understanding of objective and subjective, when we look closer.

 

[Kfox]

Yep. But the fact that two people identify as different things is still an objective difference.

Let's try a thought experiment.

There are two identical people in a room. They are identical in every way, including clothing and voice. You are a given mission; you must find an "objective difference" between these two people, but you are only allowed to ask them one question.

So, you go into the room.

Moments later, you return from the room and are asked what objective difference you discovered, and the answer you give is:

"I asked them both their favourite colour. One of them said their favourite colour is red, the other said their favourite colour is blue."

Now, how is that NOT an objective difference between those two people?

Subjective is based on personal opinions, interpretations, and beliefs; objective is based on measurable facts, and observation.

Subjective vs Objective - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Objective and Subjective? Subjective information or writing is based on personal opinions, interpretations, points of view, emotions and judgment. It is often considered ill-suited for scenarios like news reporting or decision making in business or politics...

www.diffen.com

There is no way to verify they were telling me the truth; I am forced to take their word for it. IOW no measurable facts involved only personal opinions.

 

[Kfox]

So the question is if say you are a heterosexual cis-gender male, if you control that you feel that or if that is outside your voluntary control?
What are your thoughts on that?

I believe your control is limited to the fact that if you choose to expose yourself to something different, your attitude and beliefs concerning it will often change

 

[Kfox]

The broader social context in which that thing exists.

No; that's everybody else's involvement; not yours.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh. Now I know why you are permitted to post here. Congratulations.

Which rules in particular do you consider biased?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Okay; let;s stick with what's going on in the US today. If a million years ago some little island out there in Timbucktu had a different calendar than what we recognize today; I will grant you that.

You mean like, the Julian calendar we used to use, that is still used today in parts of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
It wasn't accurate enough, so we switched to the Gregorian calendar, which isn't quite accurate enough either, and has to be tweaked continuously over time.

Fascinating stuff, really.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I remember about 25 years ago I was at a friends house and I noticed his teenage daughter had a weird multi colored freaked-out hair cut. A little later, a friend of his daughter came over they went into another room and began talking while me and my friend watched TV. While in the other room I overheard his daughter show off her weird hair style and her friend said “WOW I bet your parents completely freaked out when they saw that didn’t they! His daughter responded; Naaw my parents are usually pretty cool with this sorta stuff. Then her friend asked; so…… why did you do it?
Never underestimate what a kid will do for attention.

I've got a story too. I last saw my cousin's daughter at Christmas time. My cousin is a lesbian, and she's married to a woman.
My cousin's daughter told me at our Christmas dinner that she gets bullied at school. Why? She has two moms. And she's overweight.

Kids are still being bullied for having two mothers. For being different. That's not attention that my cousin's daughter is enjoying much at all, apparently.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Subjective is based on personal opinions, interpretations, and beliefs; objective is based on measurable facts, and observation.

Subjective vs Objective - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Objective and Subjective? Subjective information or writing is based on personal opinions, interpretations, points of view, emotions and judgment. It is often considered ill-suited for scenarios like news reporting or decision making in business or politics...

www.diffen.com

Two people identifying differently IS an observation and a measurable fact.

Person X says they identify as a fan of red.

Person Y says they identify as a fan of blue.

This is an observation and a measurable fact. Internally, to them, it may be a result of personal subjective experiences, but it is still a quantifiable and observable fact about HOW THEY IDENTIFY.

You know this. You understand this. You have a level of intellectual comprehension above a five year-old, so you should be able to grasp this.

It.
Is.
Not.
Hard.

There is no way to verify they were telling me the truth;

Doesn't matter. It's still A FACT that they can IDENTIFY that way.

I am forced to take their word for it. IOW no measurable facts involved only personal opinions.

It is a MEASURABLE FACT that they identified this way.

When people do political polling, do you take the results as quantifiable facts, or as purely speculative, subjective opinion because "people could be lying about the politics they have"?

No. Because you're an adult.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No; that's everybody else's involvement; not yours.

Except social categories exist explicitly because of the context they are in. Do you think anyone would identify as either male or female if they were born in a vacuum in which nobody had any preconception about these labels or what they meant? We associate with and identify as labels because we feel they create an accurate impression of ourselves within that framework, but some individual interpretation always takes effect.

For example, a person born to a white mother and a black father might consider themselves "black" and balk at the prospect of being called "white", even though, genetically, they are every bit as much white as they are black. The reasons for this could be myriad. It could be that that is simply the environment they grew up in and wish to identify with. It could be because the colour of their skin in notably darker than most white people's, so the social marker of "being black" doesn't really feel like a choice to them. It could be because they are born into a society in which any individuals born of black parents (including mixed race parents) are still just socially considered "black". Societies shape these labels, and can have a huge impact on how we choose to identify ourselves.

 

[metis]

Not just me, but a lot of other people who think like me.

So? Does that mean it must be correct?

And these people elect government leaders who enact laws that align with their personal beliefs. Just like there are other states who elect government leaders who enact laws that align with your and others who think like you, personal beliefs.

You still have avoided the question, namely why not allow people to make a personal decision when it comes to that which really only matters to them?

 

[Kfox]

Two people identifying differently IS an observation and a measurable fact.

Person X says they identify as a fan of red.

Person Y says they identify as a fan of blue.

This is an observation and a measurable fact. Internally, to them, it may be a result of personal subjective experiences, but it is still a quantifiable and observable fact about HOW THEY IDENTIFY.

You know this. You understand this. You have a level of intellectual comprehension above a five year-old, so you should be able to grasp this.

Don't assume that my disagreement is based on an inability to comprehend what you are saying. Some of the most brilliant minds in the world will disagree with you on one issue or another; you are not perfect.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Don't assume that my disagreement is based on an inability to comprehend what you are saying. Some of the most brilliant minds in the world will disagree with you on one issue or another; you are not perfect.

This is not a response to my argument.

And I don't believe you're unable to comprehend what I am saying. I believe you're unwilling, because you don't want to admit you're wrong. You KNOW that to say "a person IDENTIFIES as X" is an objective, observable claim. You do KNOW that.

 

[Kfox]

This is not a response to my argument.

And I don't believe you're unable to comprehend what I am saying. I believe you're unwilling, because you don't want to admit you're wrong. You KNOW that to say "a person IDENTIFIES as X" is an objective, observable claim. You do KNOW that.

No; I totally disagree with that. Anything derived from your thoughts are subjective not objective IMO.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No; I totally disagree with that. Anything derived from your thoughts are subjective not objective IMO.

Well, it is not as simple as that, because there are automatic versus metareflective thoughts and feelings.
That is part of the problem.