Substitution

[Deeje]

Thank you all for your contributions....it was pretty much what I expected.

No one likes to think that they are just one of the mob, going through the motions of predictable behavior.....but I see it pretty clearly.

The defensiveness from some of the posters was as I had anticipated...as if I had written it to insult their intelligence directly....but I was speaking in generalities only. This was about human behavior, not a serve to those who can't see the obvious metaphors. It was food for thought....not intended to be a food fight.

Cudos to @lewisnotmiller for your very reasonable response (as always) its so nice to disagree without being snotty.

*Just a note to address the theistic evolution question......IMO these are attempts to have a foot in both camps or to sit on some kind of fence. I don't believe that there is a fence to sit on, nor do I believe that you can have a two horses in the same race. Just my opinion.....

 

[SomeRandom]

Thank you all for your contributions....it was pretty much what I expected.

No one likes to think that they are just one of the mob, going through the motions of predictable behavior.....but I see it pretty clearly.

The defensiveness from some of the posters was as I had anticipated...as if I had written it to insult their intelligence directly....but I was speaking in generalities only. This was about human behavior, not a serve to those who can't see the obvious metaphors. It was food for thought....not intended to be a food fight.

Cudos to @lewisnotmiller for your very reasonable response (as always) its so nice to disagree without being snotty.

*Just a note to address the theistic evolution question......IMO these are attempts to have a foot in both camps or to sit on some kind of fence. I don't believe that there is a fence to sit on, nor do I believe that you can have a two horses in the same race. Just my opinion.....

So the Catholic Church has 2 horses in the same race? If you don’t mind my asking, how are these concepts even mutually exclusive?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No one likes to think that they are just one of the mob, going through the motions of predictable behavior.....but I see it pretty clearly.

With the responses do you think it's more your own perspectives? Like atheists places of worship. Ive never heard of an atheist having one.

 

[Deeje]

So the Catholic Church has 2 horses in the same race? If you don’t mind my asking, how are these concepts even mutually exclusive?

The Catholic Church has no horses in the race IMO. If they want to endorse evolution, they will have to take that up with the "Lord" that they purport to serve......he seems to be missing from their whole belief system.

Its a race for life, but unless you enter it and abide by the rules, you'll be disqualified.

 

[SomeRandom]

The Catholic Church has no horses in the race IMO. If they want to endorse evolution, they will have to take that up with the "Lord" that they purport to serve......he seems to be missing from their whole belief system.

Its a race for life, but unless you enter it and abide by the rules, you'll be disqualified.

Wow, I thought I was harsh on the RCC.
So you’re saying there’s no possibility that the creator uses a mechanism (which we limited humans call) evolution to design his world the way he intends?

 

[Deeje]

With the responses do you think it's more your own perspectives? Like atheists places of worship. Ive never heard of an atheist having one.

Its metaphorical....not literal....apparently atheists rail at the thought of doing anything remotely "religious" and yet they argue evolution and science like it is their religion....like the science text books are their scripture and their gods are found in the hallowed 'temples' of higher learning. What does it matter to an atheist if someone believes the Bible instead of science?

It matters to a Christian if an atheist doesn't believe because to us, you are signing your own death warrant.
We believe that all will account to God for their life course......but you guys have no such belief, so why do you care if we don't accept the theorizing of the scientists? Theories are not facts.....and evolution has never been proven....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Catholic Church has no horses in the race IMO. If they want to endorse evolution, they will have to take that up with the "Lord" that they purport to serve......he seems to be missing from their whole belief system.

Its a race for life, but unless you enter it and abide by the rules, you'll be disqualified.

There is nothing in the Bible that states evolution is not possible, amd indeed in the Genesis story of creation we do see a gradual appearance of different species, with humans being a late comer.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its metaphorical....not literal....apparently atheists rail at the thought of doing anything remotely "religious" and yet they argue evolution and science like it is their religion....like the science text books are their scripture and their gods are found in the hallowed 'temples' of higher learning. What does it matter to an atheist if someone believes the Bible instead of science?

Tons of theist look to higher learning for learning about difficult or complicated subjects they normally couldn't. Such as I lack a high powered telescope and I don't know the formulae used, so I turn to Cosmologists and the books and articles they write to learn about astronomy.
As for arguing evolution, it must be often times be argued such as opposing attempts to place religous mythos in a science class. I don't think you'd like it if a scientist were to lecture about the evolution of mammals during the Cenozoic Era.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It matters to a Christian if an atheist doesn't believe because to us, you are signing your own death warrant.

That gives you no right to butt in the affairs of others. No right to make such outlandish claims and accusations.

We believe that all will account to God for their life course......but you guys have no such belief, so why do you care if we don't accept the theorizing of the scientists? Theories are not facts.....and evolution has never been proven....

I am not an atheist, so no "you guys."
Those are your beliefs. And lots of us care because Christians so often try to force their dogma and believes upon us all--non-believers and other denominations alike--through legislation. We have to care or you end up running our lives.
Theories are facts that have been demonstrated to be accurate repeatedly (unless you believe illnesses arent caused by germs and that oxygen isn't combustible).
Evolution is happening all around us. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow, I thought I was harsh on the RCC.
So you’re saying there’s no possibility that the creator uses a mechanism (which we limited humans call) evolution to design his world the way he intends?

JWs have to hate the Catholic Church as part of their doctrine. They see it as the "whore of Babylon". It's due to their evangelical Protestant roots. Notice how, like all other evangelical Prots who rage against Catholicism, they totally ignore Orthodox Christianity, which is as old as as the Catholic Church and has perserved much more of ancient Christian belief and practice than Catholicism has (modern Catholicism is ironically very influenced by mainline Protestantism post-Vatican 2). It's a Protestant bias because they broke off from the Catholic Church and continue to obsess over it. It's a Western thing only.

 

[Deeje]

Wow, I thought I was harsh on the RCC.

Having come out of Christendom, I am very aware of where the majority of their teachings come from....and it isn't Jesus.

So you’re saying there’s no possibility that the creator uses a mechanism (which we limited humans call) evolution to design his world the way he intends?

No, there is a vast difference between "adaptation" and macro-evolution. The line between these is blurred by science in some very clever sleight of hand, using the power of suggestion to convey something as fact when it never was.....there is not one single shred of real evidence that life originated in some primordial soup and gradually transformed itself in to all the life forms that have ever existed. Having an adaptive mechanism programmed into all creatures is not proof of macro-evolution......Any experimentation with speciation never once saw a change that would lead to a new "kind" of creature. It only ever produced a new variety in a single taxonomy.

God tells us what he created and the order in which he created them.....science confirms the order from the creation of sentient creatures (he does not go back to microscopic creatures because there would be no point until the invention of microscopes).....He tells us in scripture things that no earthbound human could know.....like that the earth is a 'sphere' and that it 'hangs on nothing'. He even outlines the mechanism behind precipitation at a time when these things were unknowable.

I have more faith in the Creator than I have in any man of science who can change his mind with the next "discovery".

 

[Deeje]

JWs have to hate the Catholic Church as part of their doctrine. They see it as the "whore of Babylon". It's due to their evangelical Protestant roots.

The "whore of Babylon" is way bigger than just the RCC....she is just the "mother" of the other "harlots". (Revelation 17:5-6; Revelation 18:3-8)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The "whore of Babylon" is way bigger than just the RCC....she is just the "mother" of the other "harlots". (Revelation 17:5-6; Revelation 18:3-8)

 

[Eyes to See]

You know your reply saying that JW's have to hate the RCC made me think of this recording from Judge Rutherford. A very old recording entitled "Religion is a Snare and a Racket." It's worth a listening. For to be true Jehovah's Witnesses love humanity and don't care what religion a person is. And know that people can be sincere in their worship of God and still be wrong.

As scripture even says:

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge.-Romans 10:2.

 

[Deeje]

That gives you no right to butt in the affairs of others. No right to make such outlandish claims and accusations.

What outlandish claims and accusations? We do not but in to anyone's affairs.....we simply deliver a message that Christ instructed us to give to everyone. You don't have to believe it or act on it.....it is offered on a take it or leave it basis.

I am not an atheist, so no "you guys."

So you do believe in God (or gods) then?

Those are your beliefs. And lots of us care because Christians so often try to force their dogma and believes upon us all--non-believers and other denominations alike--through legislation. We have to care or you end up running our lives.

Since "Christians" are counseled by Jesus himself to be "no part of the world", I can assure you that no Christian was ever involved in any legislative attempts to make you conform to their views. We are to do this voluntarily....its why we have free will. Are you free? No Christian has any interest in taking away your freedom of choice....any who do are demonstrating that they are not followers of Christ.

Theories are facts that have been demonstrated to be accurate repeatedly (unless you believe illnesses arent caused by germs and that oxygen isn't combustible).
Evolution is happening all around us. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

That is not a true statement. Theories that have been proven to be true are technically no longer theories (hypotheses) but now, known facts.....we accept them as such. We know that bacteria and viruses cause illness because we can prove it. We know that oxygen is combustible because we've seen it explode....

We cannot know how life began or how it evolved in the dim dark past because there is no way to prove any of it.
It can be suggested....and it can be offered as a possible scenario....but it remains a theory that has virtually nothing to back it up by way of real evidence....only conjecture and assertions.

Evolution is not happening all around us...."adaptation" is......and it never results in any creature that is outside of its known family.

 

[Deeje]

Yes...its very important to note that the accusations are aimed at the organizations, not the people.
There is no "hating" except for those who lie about what Jesus taught and teach others those same lies. Unless you know what the Bible teaches, you would assume that they are telling the truth...I assure you that they are not. Jesus himself warned about this.

Its like Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte (convert), and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna (eternal punishment) twice as much so as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What outlandish claims and accusations?

Claims that atheists have scriptures and go to church is a great starter. Or that a theist can't accept evolution, thats another good example.

So you do believe in God (or gods) then?

Not in any sort of personal deity.

Since "Christians" are counseled by Jesus himself to be "no part of the world", I can assure you that no Christian was ever involved in any legislative attempts to make you conform to their views. We are to do this voluntarily....its why we have free will. Are you free? No Christian has any interest in taking away your freedom of choice....any who do are demonstrating that they are not followers of Christ.

I had to move to another state to escape from persecution and discrimination at the hands of Christians and their politicians. I had to move to another state because Christian led politics doesn't believe insurance should cover my medical needs. Getting away from those Christians also came with a huge perk, amd that is being in one of the least Christian cities (or post-Christain, to use the phrase in the study) in America has came with the pleasantness of no one telling me to leave my home amd the state I live in.
No true Scots allowed.
Can you demonstrate free will exist? Its a claim taken for granted but not demonstrated to actually exist.

That is not a true statement.

Yes. It is. Germs are a fact and theory. Magnetism is a fact and theory. Cells are a fact and theory. Molecules are a fact and theory. And, by the way, although all theories begin as a hypothesis, a theory and a hypothesis are not the same.

We cannot know how life began

That isn't what evolution deals with, and not knowing now doesn't mean we never can. We probably eventually will solve that one as well.

Evolution is not happening all around us...."adaptation" is......

Adaption is a part of evolution.

 

[crossfire]

Question: what could possibly be more spiritual than transformation and evolution? (especially self-transformation)

Still waiting. Wouldn't maintaining the status quo (non-evolution) be more likened to "programming?"

 

[PearlSeeker]

Some people are naturally spiritual and others are not....no one seems to know why.

Different brains:

Implicit Pattern Learning

 

[PearlSeeker]

? Like atheists places of worship. Ive never heard of an atheist having one.

For example:

North Korean cult of personality - Wikipedia