• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Suffering, and a crisis of belief

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I see tv ads for Child Fund, Humane Society of the US, ASPCA, etc. showing starving children and abused and abandoned animals (when I can see through my tears... yeah a 215 lb hairy tattooed bear crying). I rescued my cat as a 5 week old kitten who was hours away from death (he's now 18 months old and 14 lbs). I can believe that was my dharma. Am I to believe that this is their karma for deeds in past lives? To endure such suffering? Or is this just the nature of existence and they had the misfortune, the unlucky roll of the dice to be born into such a life? I'm not sure I can believe that their suffering is payment of karmic debt. So where have I gone wrong in my thinking?
 

Charzhino

Member
I am keen to hear an explanation to this problem too but I also want to throw in another question. In dharmic religions, can suffering be also explained as test from God as akin to Abrahamic religions or is everything that happens in life a result of you karmic past?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
In dharmic religions, can suffering be also explained as test from God as akin to Abrahamic religions or is everything that happens in life a result of you karmic past?

I can say almost certainly it's not punishment or a test from God in the Abrahamic sense. God doesn't mete out punishment or reward, or test us. So that leaves karmic past and debt as the answer. If true, then maybe my emotions overrule my intellect in this matter.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The issue of pain and suffering is a hard one. I do not look at other beings and think that they are suffering because of karmic debt. Karma is way to complex for that. Take Helen Keller as an example. Did she have bad Karma because she was born deaf and blind or great karma because she made such an impact on the world? I don't really know or care.

When I think of karma it relates to my self. What I think and do is what I become. I just try to do good and serve. My job is to feel love and compassion. Not to blame others for their own suffering.

I know my way is simplistic but it works for me.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The issue of pain and suffering is a hard one. I do not look at other beings and think that they are suffering because of karmic debt. Karma is way to complex for that. Take Helen Keller as an example. Did she have bad Karma because she was born deaf and blind or great karma because she made such an impact on the world? I don't really know or care.

This is what I am thinking. Rescuing an abused animal or child makes for great personal karma. I have a magnet on my tailgate in the shape of a paw that says "Who Rescued Who?" So does that victim have great karma, born for us, even though we don't see it that way? Well, if so then maybe I can handle it.

When I think of karma it relates to my self. What I think and do is what I become. I just try to do good and serve. My job is to feel love and compassion. Not to blame others for their own suffering.

I know my way is simplistic but it works for me.

No, I don't think it's simplistic, maybe "not over-thought" like mine. I read on another site that one person feels his disabled child is paying a karmic debt. Like you, I know it's not my place to "blame the victim".

It is indeed complex, and maybe I've oversimplified it through my emotions.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
This is what I am thinking. Rescuing an abused animal or child makes for great personal karma. I have a magnet on my tailgate in the shape of a paw that says "Who Rescued Who?" So does that victim have great karma, born for us, even though we don't see it that way? Well, if so then maybe I can handle it.

Maybe :)

As said, and for what I´ve been instructed, karma is indeed complex. "Good" and "Bad" are way WE describe it, and it can be a helpful way to describe it sometimes. Many other times though, it´s more complicated.

I have little to no knowledge of how karma works for animals or beings that are yet evolving or trying to get higher on Life´s scale through their incarnations.

I would love to hear anyone that can put out more on it :)

I wish you the best with your cat so you both live happily and teach each other lessons of love and armony :namaste
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What is suffering? ... a method of learning? I think you have to study our suffering. There is an old saying about sleep ..I'm paraphrasing .. In the east you get a better sleep on a bed of rocks than in the west on a soft mattress ' something like that.

Watch a lion hunt down a gazelle or something, and we see it as a natural occurrence, all part of his plan, because its in nature. Preventable (at least seemingly preventable) suffering like wars, etc., are another matter. Yes, I do see it as karma, but its also my dharma to do something about it, if possible.
 

magalaan

Member
I see tv ads for Child Fund, Humane Society of the US, ASPCA, etc. showing starving children and abused and abandoned animals (when I can see through my tears... yeah a 215 lb hairy tattooed bear crying). I rescued my cat as a 5 week old kitten who was hours away from death (he's now 18 months old and 14 lbs). I can believe that was my dharma. Am I to believe that this is their karma for deeds in past lives? To endure such suffering? Or is this just the nature of existence and they had the misfortune, the unlucky roll of the dice to be born into such a life? I'm not sure I can believe that their suffering is payment of karmic debt. So where have I gone wrong in my thinking?

You are the victim of oversimplifying. The solution to a better understanding is not more rationalization based on pity emotions. The solution is a much more a difficult one, to upgrade your thinking. Hinduism is not a religion of the masses like for instance Christianity and Islam. Christianity was tailored for the needs of the people of Rome, one the first mega cities, and one of the first consumer societies, and a slave society. That is why it makes little sense if think it trough. But in a very clever way it knows how to play into peoples feelings of suffering. guilt, etc.

Hinduism is not like that, it was created by sages, philosophers and their teachings were secret to common people. For common people they made beautiful epic stories and other practical guidelines. Stories are more fun and much easier to remember than deep wisdom or philosophical exercises, and make you less arrogant.

To many it may seem that karma is simple thing. The way they look at it, it seems like some kind of punishment for past deeds, and they ask themselves why it must be so cruel. But that is a wrong understanding of Karma. Many believe Karma is the Law of cause and effect, and this is still an oversimplification. Karma is not about cause and effect, it is the Law of seed and fruit. It may seem the same but is subtly different.

When you irritate yourself, and you allow your irritation to grow, at some point your irritation may lead to an explosion of anger. And as you explode, similar seeds are planted in the person you leashed at. And at some point he may do something very hurtful to you. And you will not understand, Your anger you remember as justified by your irritation. We are much more aware of our own feelings than that of others. So we easily find the whole thing very unjust.

But justice had little to do with it. Justice is man made idea that someone up there gives each one what he has a right for. As if an impartial referee is taking scores, and then there is final making up of the bill. But that is an illusion invented by men. This is not what we see in nature. In nature things grow and they grow logically from their seeds. In the seeds the whole development is contained, the environment can only slightly change this, but it will not turn an apple seed into a cherry tree. It will only make it grow faster or slower. Some trees will always grow straight, some are easily bend.

As you live your life you character develops as you react to circumstances good or bad. To some people bad circumstance can really have a good influence on their character. For instance they are maltreated and they say: now that I know how painful this is, I will never do the same to someone else. But others will react, I am hurt and I take my revenge on the world. With good circumstance it is the same, it will make some people want to share it with others, but some become arrogant and unfeeling, like the rich boys in Brazil who started killing poor people at night because they have no value.

So what is agreeable and what does us good are two different things to begin with. As we develop our character we we develop Karma, because we can not do things without our subconscious retaining an imprint. And from that our character itself will create opportunities and problems for us. It will even determine how we start our next life, it will be concentrated in the next seed. This seed will then determine how we will grow up and what things we will attract.

The knowledge of Karma is what makes us strong. Why? Because it gives a means and a goal to develop ourselves. This knowledge makes us the master of our own fate. Without this knowledge we are simply small boats in an ocean totally dependent on the direction of the wind and the currents.

When the great Jewish wise man Hillel was asked about this, He said: Why good people have misfortune and are evil ones fortune, is something we will never understand. For in monotheism everything is the will of God, and that makes God seem evil at times. Their best answer you find in the book of Job, where Satan, who is represented as a servant of God, bets with God that Job is not really as loyal to him as he believes. So to prove he is wrong God is giving Satan permission to do the most terrible things to Job and his dear ones. What a horrible thought! That would make God like a child that pulls the legs of insects to see if they walk on two legs. A total lack of respect for his subjects. They believe man is basically bad. He must be, otherwise God would not do like that top him.

So the Law of Karma is in fact very reassuring. I says: Don't be afraid, nothing ever happens that you are not a part of in the making. If you do not like the result, you can change it, by changing your attitude to the world, here is how...

All an monotheist can say is: InsAllah, or Godwilling, I do not like it but it is God's will, I will have to accept it. That is why Jews came to the conclusion God must be both good and bad. There is no other explanation if everything goes to his will and it is all in his master plan. It makes people submissive, not to annoy God, who has a bad temper. Even Jesus expresses on his end: Why God, why have you forsaken me.

But for the Hindu, we can appeal to a higher explanation, one that gives all the power to the individual. We are not victims, neither of God nor fate, we create our own destination. And we can do that in any circumstance, good or bad. Because we know it is not the circumstances that matter. We want to "rise to the occasion".

So let the sentimentality go, it only drags you down. Showing compassion with beings in need is positive, this weening does not become you, as Krishna makes very clear to Arjuna, as he is crying why he must kill the ones he loves so much.

Make no mistake, we are here because we have an unstoppable desire to be here. What you call suffering are simply the most potent experiences this world offers. That is why jealousy, anger, grief, guilt, fear can so easily hold us hostage. Our mind loves it, even if our rational rejects it. And if you do not believe that than wonder why there exist people who seek pain and fear consciously and love it.

The rest is up to you, but I suggest, you let go of sentimentality, it simply is not an emotion that serves us. If you like sentimentality, than Christianity might be a better faith for you, it is full of it. I comes from the Greek tradition in which true hero's had the most miserable lives often ending in disaster. The Greeks did not believe in happy endings most of the time. The made it popular and called it: "tragedy". And people love the stories, even more than the other one: comedy. which often is laughing at other peoples mistakes.

But for the Hindu life is Joy, how can it be otherwise? You are divine. You walk this world like a God. If you forget that, than you become one of the beasts fighting for his survival in an unforgiving world, the victim of a cruel God. You will beat your children, because God beats them too and they need to be hardened. All suffering begins with ourselves, in us the seed grows, even if it is just nasty thoughts like you display here. Do not think that your gloomy thoughts grow into joyful fruits. And apple seed never grows into a cherry tree.

Neither think that the character is formed outside in. The outer is an expression of the inner. You can read books, eat vegetarian, call your God Krishna, worship him serveral times a day, because it is so auspicious, but do not expect to much from this. It is the inner where the attention needs to be directed. Otherwise you are like the man that thinks he can become a successful businessman if he dresses like one. No, that will not work, but thinking like one surely will. It begins with the thoughts even before that with subtle feelings, and it grows from there. You may eat vegetarian to avoid subtle negative influences, but your sentiment is a real poison to your mind. The sick man dresses up for a walk in the park.

O alas, if only the world was not so bittersweet. What does that thought really express? I am to good for this lousy world. If only the world was as good as me.
Well it is, it always is. Unmask it, It is an expression of the ego. But this you is not one percent as good as you think it is. Because if it was, you would embrace this world with every breath. You would taste the Divine in every breath in every sound, in every thing. But your mind is clouded and so you keep on poisoning it, because your attention is outward directed and you do not recognize your own poison.
 
Last edited:

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I wish you the best with your cat so you both live happily and teach each other lessons of love and armony :namaste

Thanks. :namaste

Though I've been through some heartbreak with two little girl ferrets I adopted as rescues. They were with me only a few months, both succumbing to very aggressive forms of cancer. I was back and forth to the veterinarian, giving them medication several times a day, then finally losing them to their illnesses. I wonder if I'll ever know the purpose in all that. :confused:
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I do see it as karma, but its also my dharma to do something about it, if possible.

That's what I'm coming to think also. I think we have our paths laid out for us, somehow.
 
I see tv ads for Child Fund, Humane Society of the US, ASPCA, etc. showing starving children and abused and abandoned animals (when I can see through my tears... yeah a 215 lb hairy tattooed bear crying). I rescued my cat as a 5 week old kitten who was hours away from death (he's now 18 months old and 14 lbs). I can believe that was my dharma. Am I to believe that this is their karma for deeds in past lives? To endure such suffering? Or is this just the nature of existence and they had the misfortune, the unlucky roll of the dice to be born into such a life? I'm not sure I can believe that their suffering is payment of karmic debt. So where have I gone wrong in my thinking?
The concept that has probably helped me the most in dealing with the fact of suffering comes from a book called, "Courageous Souls: Do We Plan Our Life Challenges Before Birth?" by Robert Schwartz (currently titled "Your Soul's Plan: Discovering the Real Meaning of the Life You Planned Before You Were Born"). Granted, it's just one view of many, but it's probably the most empowering, encouraging, and least likely to drive one to despair when contemplating -- or coping with, first-hand -- the trials this life can bring. It essentially takes you through the accounts of various people who recall planning their lives prior to birth.



.

 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Good post. I'll read it over a few times.

...

Karma is not about cause and effect, it is the Law of seed and fruit. It may seem the same but is subtly different.

When you irritate yourself, and you allow your irritation to grow, at some point your irritation may lead to an explosion of anger. And as you explode, new seeds will start growing things in the person you leashed at. And some point he may do something very hurtful to you. And you will not understand, Your anger was justified by your irritation you may feel. As we are much more aware of our own feelings than that of others, we may find the whole thing very unjust.

Yes, an escalation of violence and hurt. Not good. For example, I'd want to pound the crap out of someone who hurts an innocent (child, elderly person or animal), but that won't solve the problem. Instead of stopping violence, I'm creating it. I guess protecting and helping or rescuing those innocents is the better way than beating the crap out of someone.

As you live your life you character develops as you react to circumstances good or bad. To some people bad circumstance can really have a good influence on their character. For instance they are maltreated and they say: now that I know how painful this is, I will never do the same to someone else.

Like steel, forged and tempered to make it stronger.

All an monotheist can say is: InsAllah, or Godwilling, I do not like it but it is God's will, I will have to accept it. That is why Jews came to the conclusion God must be both good and bad. There is no other explanation if everything goes to his will and it is all in his master plan. It makes people submissive. Like Jesus expresses on his end: Why God, why have you forsaken me. A cry often heard.

I never believed or liked all that "if God willing" and "it's God's will", especially in some tragedy. No, God is not like that.

So let the sentimentality go, it only drags you down. Showing compassion with beings in need is positive, this weening does not become you, as Krishna makes very clear to Arjuna, as he is crying why he must kill the ones he loves so much.

I should have remembered that Krishna chastised Arjuna for feeling sympathy and remorse and regret for what he had to do, his dharma.

Maybe I can't do anything about what I see, and shouldn't let my emotions take over because that can blind me and stop me from doing something in another way to do good.

I think I understand. :namaste
 

magalaan

Member
Thanks. :namaste

Though I've been through some heartbreak with two little girl ferrets I adopted as rescues. They were with me only a few months, both succumbing to very aggressive forms of cancer. I was back and forth to the veterinarian, giving them medication several times a day, then finally losing them to their illnesses. I wonder if I'll ever know the purpose in all that. :confused:
Did Krishna come to this world to join us in suffering?
No, but Jesus did
Try to make up you mind who you want to be
The one that sought to be a great hero and drink suffering
or the simple shepherd boy that sought to drink happiness
The rest will follow logically

What the mind desires, it will see
It can see beauty in suffering
or suffering in beauty

To empathize with other beings is excellent
to relive this again and again is sin,
a waste of moments one forgets to enjoy
Stop doing this, you like it to much
This sentimental journey
 
Last edited:

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I know suffering isn't part of God's "plan" nor is it His doing. I don't enjoy dwelling on the suffering. Rather, I just haven't learned yet to put my feelings in their proper place. I need to read the Gita more closely to learn about it. Every time one reads it, there is always something new to discover and learn.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, it seems that chapter two of the Gita gives me the answers, and comfort. Lord Krishna teaches Arjuna about the soul, which is important to focus on. We shouldn't lament for the living or the dead.

"The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body." 2.23-25

"O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the body can never be slain. Therefore you need not grieve for any living being." 2.30

"In the material world, one who is unaffected by whatever good or evil he may obtain, neither praising it nor despising it, is firmly fixed in perfect knowledge. One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness." 2.57-58

Gandhi was correct:

"The Gita is the universal mother. I find a solace in the Bhagavad Gita that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad Gita. I find a verse here and a verse there , and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies - and my life has been full of external tragedies - and if they have left no visible or indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavad Gita".
 
Top