Supreme Court ruling on prayer case

[Shaul]

I think this sort of thing ignores the potential dangers of some religions to indoctrinate the powerless into harmful teachings.

If it were my country I would call for all state sponsored religious displays to be banned.

In my opinion.

So only allow secular forces to indoctrinate these putative powerless into harmful teachings?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Have all of you supporters of this ruling considered the position of authority that this coach has over his students/players -- and that he is perfectly capable of noting which of them participates, and which don't. Also, unless they're idiots, those students/players know that he can observe, and know that he can make team decisions based upon his own feelings about their participation?

This is something Justice Sotomayor pointed out for the 3 dissenters on the Court. And it is one of the reasons for the Establishment clause of the first amendment, which the decision largely ignores, while giving almost total preference to the Free Exercise clause.

In this case, a power relationship between faculty and students, the Establishment clause really must take precedence.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this coach
A. Expected any student to join him in prayer ?
B. Singled out any student who did not join him?

Should the court rule on what someone is "perfectly capable" of doing?

Should a cop pull over a driver for doing nothing wrong, and ticket said driver because he's perfectly capable of breaking the speed limit?

Im certainly no fan of teachers or coaches leading students in prayer in public schools. As a Jewish person who went to public school in this county, I can assure you I wouldn't tolerate it.

But if the coach knelt in prayer AFTER the game, when nobody is expected to stick around and/or join him, then I don't think he's done anything wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this coach
A. Expected any student to join him in prayer ?
B. Singled out any student who did not join him?

Should the court rule on what someone is "perfectly capable" of doing?

Should a cop pull over a driver for doing nothing wrong, and ticket said driver because he's perfectly capable of breaking the speed limit?

Im certainly no fan of teachers or coaches leading students in prayer in public schools. As a Jewish person who went to public school in this county, I can assure you I wouldn't tolerate it.

But if the coach knelt in prayer AFTER the game, when nobody is expected to stick around and/or join him, then I don't think he's done anything wrong.

He mad a public show of his false piety. Of course he expected his team to join him.

 

[Poisonshady313]

He mad a public show of his false piety.

I'm not sure you know the man well enough to judge the nature of his piety.

Of course he expected his team to join him.

Of course, you say? What makes you say so?

 

[Poisonshady313]

There's another thread that delves into the details.
This coach actually intended that his prayer include
players for the purpose of their religious embiggenment.

Whatever his intentions may have been, the most important detail is whether or not students had the right to walk away/decline to participate.

Did the other thread address that?

 

[Revoltingest]

Whatever his intentions may have been, the most important detail is whether or not students had the right to walk away/decline to participate.

Did the other thread address that?

No, because the right to walk away is obvious.
Do you believe that public school staff of any religion
should be free to proselytize, given that students may
refuse to participate?

 

[Estro Felino]

No, because the right to walk away is obvious.
Do you believe that public school staff of any religion
should be free to proselytize, given that students may
refuse to participate?

That was not proselytizing.
That was a simple prayer.
Christians are the most tolerant people on Earth. The most tolerant religious group on Earth. And what do they get in return? Intolerance. Because if they were intolerant, they would ban religions which challenge their own beliefs, such as LHP and similar.

 

[Poisonshady313]

No, because the right to walk away is obvious.
Do you believe that public school staff of any religion
should be free to proselytize, given that students may
refuse to participate?

Proselytize? No.

Offer his own prayer? Yes.

The question is, if someone didn't join him, did that someone suffer consequences as a result?


In high school I was in theater. One year I was asked to help out a private catholic school with their production of Fiddler On the Roof. Before the show, most of the cast would gather around to pray.

Seeing as how this was a private, religious school, it may seem neither here nor there. But the fact is that I wasn't expected to join. And if I was, nobody made a big deal about the fact that I didn't.
The fact that i could decline, free from consequence, made it clear that this wasn't proselytizing... it was just religious people praying.

As far as I'm concerned, the coach can ask whatever he wants as long as the student can say no.

 

[Revoltingest]

That was not proselytizing.
That was a simple prayer.

Perhaps you didn't read how the coach refused accommodation
to pray less visibly. And how he intended it to affect students.
So there's more to it than "simple" prayer.

 

[Revoltingest]

Proselytize? No.

Offer his own prayer? Yes.

The question is, if someone didn't join him, did that someone suffer consequences as a result?


In high school I was in theater. One year I was asked to help out a private catholic school with their production of Fiddler On the Roof. Before the show, most of the cast would gather around to pray.

Seeing as how this was a private, religious school, it may seem neither here nor there. But the fact is that I wasn't expected to join. And if I was, nobody made a big deal about the fact that I didn't.
The fact that i could decline, free from consequence, made it clear that this wasn't proselytizing... it was just religious people praying.

As far as I'm concerned, the coach can ask whatever he wants as long as the student can say no.

This is a change in the legal standard.
Where before, personal prayer was allowed, now
it can be with color of authority, & it's up to the
students to affirmatively decline participation,
ie, their refusal is knowable to those in charge
of them.
Would you be OK with a public school principal
leading the school in a prayer to Satan, with
compliance or refusal being known to all staff?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Perhaps you didn't read how the coach refused accommodation
to pray less visibly. And how he intended it to affect students.
So there's more to it than "simple" prayer.

If he's not keeping anybody from leaving, and he's not punishing students who don't join him, i don't care how visible he is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not sure you know the man well enough to judge the nature of his piety.

I do. He is not following the Bible he was making a show. If you are a Christian how do you not know how Jesus himself told you to pray?

Of course, you say? What makes you say so?

Logic. You should try it some day.

 

[Poisonshady313]

This is a change in the legal standard.
Where before, personal prayer was allowed, now
it can be with color of authority, & it's up to the
students to affirmatively decline participation.
Would you be OK with a public school principal
leading the school in a prayer to Satan?

Your question has no bearing on my position. The answer is no.

But if a Satanist wanted to kneel on the 50 yard line after the game and hail satan, as long as nobody was being forced to participate, then by all means, let him.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Logic. You should try it some day.

No need to condescend. I asked you to defend your position.

If you're unable to do so, just say so.

If you're unwilling to do so, say nothing.

You chose to be unpleasant.
Good luck with that.

 

[Revoltingest]

If he's not keeping anybody from leaving, and he's not punishing students who don't join him, i don't care how visible he is.

You don't care.
But this is a new legal standard, one which allows
public schools to institutionalize prayer by staff.
It signals a return to what I saw in the 50s & 60s,
when teachers led Christian prayer & told Bible
stories in class.
You can glibly say there's no punishment, but this
can happen with subtlety because of bias against
those not sharing the official/dominant religion.

I wonder if the door is open now for Satanists,
Scientologists, atheists, etc to exort students to
reject gods, & pursue non-Christian values?

 

[JustGeorge]

Christians are the most tolerant people on Earth. The most tolerant religious group on Earth. And what do they get in return? Intolerance. Because if they were intolerant, they would ban religions which challenge their own beliefs, such as LHP and similar. And yet they do allow them.

That may depend on the group.

I've dealt with some pretty intolerant Christians. I was on a neighborhood association in which another member told me he would not work with me because I wasn't a Christian. I got my art scribbled all over because someone deemed it wasn't 'Christian'(it wasn't anything; the art wasn't religious at all, yet...) I've been told that my participation wasn't appreciated in other activities because I wasn't Christian(not to mention general bullying). I have no doubt any of those folks would be happy to make my(or anyone else's) faith illegal, if it didn't match theirs. And all this is mild compared to the intolerance my husband faced growing up in the American south(yes, physical violence was involved).

Its not only Christians. I've been bullied by others in differing faith/nonfaith groups, too. I'm just not sure I'd say they're the most tolerant bunch on Earth. I really don't know who'd I'd award that to. (Hm. Maybe Jains....)

 

[Revoltingest]

Your question has no bearing on my position.

Au contraire, it has great relevance.
Generally, Christians who want school prayer back
don't imagine that allowing their prayers would also
mean allowing competing religions.

The answer is no.

This illustrates the problem that many people want
their religion institutionalized in public schools, but
not ones they dislike. That poses major constitutional
problems for the courts, ie, some religions must have
favor compared to others.

But if a Satanist wanted to kneel on the 50 yard line after the game and hail satan, as long as nobody was being forced to participate, then by all means, let him.

We're not talking about just any Satanist, but a coach or
other school official, who may now induce others to
participate (as did this guy).

 

[Poisonshady313]

You don't care.
But this is a new legal standard, one which allows
public schools to institutionalize prayer by staff.

Does it really though? if the athletes on the field are free to simply walk away, is it institutionalized?

It signals a return to what I saw in the 50s & 60s,
when teachers led Christian prayer & told Bible
stories in class.
You can glibly say there's no punishment, but this
can happen with subtlety because of bias against
those not sharing the official/dominant religion.

I would need evidence of this happening. The mere possibility is not enough. My car can exceed 120 mph. Doesn't mean I should get a ticket while driving the speed limit because of what's possible.

I wonder if the door is open now for Satanists,
Scientologists, atheists, etc to exort students to
reject gods, & pursue non-Christian values?

I don't yet see how coach praying after the game rises to the level of proselytization.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No need to condescend. I asked you to defend your position.

If you're unable to do so, just say so.

If you're unwilling to do so, say nothing.

You chose to be unpleasant.
Good luck with that.

No, you asked rather rudely. And you have not acknowledged your errors. You have no right to expect a polite reply.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Does it really though? if the athletes on the field are free to simply walk away, is it institutionalized?

I would need evidence of this happening. The mere possibility is not enough. My car can exceed 120 mph. Doesn't mean I should get a ticket while driving the speed limit because of what's possible.


I don't yet see how coach praying after the game rises to the level of proselytization.

there were not "free to walk away". Peer pressure at that age and especially on a team like that is intense.

The people that are not doing anything wrong should not be the ones that walk away.