• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Syncretism.....Can Mixing Religious Ideas Lead to the Truth?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So you are saying that believing the Bible is flawless, and God directed the Catholic church to choose the right books for the Bible for future Jehovah's Witnesses to find the real truth, is what Jesus meant by "You shall know them by their fruits"? I don't follow the wisdom of this.
The ' church ' merely testified to what was already 1st-century Scripture according to ancient manuscripts.
The Catholic church has its additional apocryphal books outside of the harmonious "66" Bible books.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the "66".
For example: please notice Sirach 25:23 that in woman was sin's beginning and because of 'her' we all die.
True, Eve ate first, but Adam did Not have to eat, this is why Scripture places the blame on Adam.- Romans 5:12,19
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So you are saying that believing the Bible is flawless, and God directed the Catholic church to choose the right books for the Bible for future Jehovah's Witnesses to find the real truth, is what Jesus meant by "You shall know them by their fruits"? I don't follow the wisdom of this.
The Bible itself says that ALL Scripture is inspired by God........... - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
To me God directed that His "66" Bible books be preserved and they are.
Jesus said the ' truth ' would set you free. Free from what is false, religiously false. Scripture being the real religious truth.
Jesus believed that Scripture is real or genuine ' religious truth ' - John 17:17
And Jesus taught about having ' pure worship ' as found at John 4:23-24.
So, then who was Jesus being a witness for ___________
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Two others in this thread who are JWs [said the RCC is the whore of Babylon].
No they didn’t. You misunderstood.
Show me. Quote the link.

Same may claim to be JW’s, just to cause confusion. Probably like the “secret database” list. (You don’t believe everything you read on the internet, do you?)

We disfellowship ones who commit such deeds. You didn’t know that? Yes you did.
Our disfellowshipping procedure reveals the “secret database” claim to be false.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The ' church ' merely testified to what was already 1st-century Scripture according to ancient manuscripts.
There were other 1st century texts being used in Christian churches as well, such as the many of those found in the Nag Hamadi texts, which had all been burned by the Catholic Church because they deemed them incompatible with approved church doctrines. Why aren't those considered God's word? Who decided that? Apparently the Catholics whom you believe selected the right ones to include, and the right ones to reject, without error.

So, yes it was Catholics who gave you the bible you have by a process of debating and voting in later church councils. Not all those original texts are there.

If being from the 1st Century makes them true, then you should be adding other texts from that period back in there, according to your logic. If not, why not? How do you know there weren't supposed to be in there?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible itself says that ALL Scripture is inspired by God........... - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
I addressed this as well. Don't you read the replies we give you?

That verse cannot be referring to the NT books, as it supposedly was written by Paul (which it really wasn't according the majority of modern critical scholarship). The only scripture recognized back then when he was alive would have been the books of the OT. You can't use that to say he meant later writings yet to come, like all 4 of the canonical gospels. Those didn't exist when Paul was alive.

To me God directed that His "66" Bible books be preserved and they are.
How do you know it's "66", and not just the 46 books of the OT that "Paul" was referring to in 2 Tim 3:16? Who chose those other 27?

(Answer = The Bishops of Rome)

Jesus said the ' truth ' would set you free. Free from what is false, religiously false. Scripture being the real religious truth.
We have established so far that only 46 books were considered scripture when 1 Tim 3:16 was supposedly written. So are you saying that because the Roman Church decided on which books to include and exclude for those additional 27 you have, that those are religiously false then? Why are you using them then?

Jesus believed that Scripture is real or genuine ' religious truth ' - John 17:17
There were only 46 books that Jesus would have considered scripture at the time he is claimed to have said this. Not 66. How do you know those should have been included, and not 21, or 38 more? How? On faith that the Roman Church got them right, even though you consider them the Apostate Church?

And Jesus taught about having ' pure worship ' as found at John 4:23-24.
I love that verse! It has nothing to do with the books of the Bible however, but about worship in Spirit, meaning your heart and soul, not reading ink on paper! :)

So, then who was Jesus being a witness for ___________
Spirit. Truth. Contrasted against religiosity and doctrinal beliefs over Love.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
There were other 1st century texts…. Why aren't those considered God's word? Who decided that?
Jehovah. (Yahweh)

Apparently the Catholics whom you believe selected the right ones to include, and the right ones to reject, without error.

No, Jehovah. His spirit was moving those men to make His choices.

So, yes it was Catholics who gave you the bible you have

No, it was Jehovah (Yahweh)

If being from the 1st Century makes them true, then you should be adding other texts from that period back in there, according to your logic. If not, why not? How do you know there weren't supposed to be in there?
Because Jehovah God (Yahweh) is the One I trust. He has protected it throughout the centuries, despite the Church’s effort to keep it in a dead language and out of the hands of the common people.
Amazing reply from you.
Is your faith in God so little, that you attribute to man, what God did?

Question: just who else would God have used, at that time?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If being from the 1st Century makes them true, then you should be adding other texts from that period back in there, according to your logic. If not, why not? How do you know there weren't supposed to be in there?

I'm speaking about Bible texts. The harmonious '66' Bible texts. Harmony is the 'why'.
The Bible throughout has harmonious corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages.
When Jesus said out of the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established means: Bible writers.
The Bible writers of the '66' Bible books are in harmony with each other.
This is how Jesus could harmoniously refer and quote them in order to base his teachings on them.
The apocryphal books exclude themselves from the '66' because they are out of harmony with the '66' Bible books.
So, No, adding other texts for any period just proves to be out of harmony with the harmonious '66' Bible books.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Windwalker , you’ve got a habit of making unfounded statements. And saying things I never said.

So I’m sad for this & I won’t continue on with you. It’s fruitless.
 

idea

Question Everything
...

If being from the 1st Century makes them true, then you should be adding other texts from that period ....

if being the oldest book makes it true, then... we should all be worshipping Enlil and Nenlil, the real creators of all things, and oldrst text - quite a bit older than anything in the Bible....
Kesh temple hymn Kesh temple hymn - Wikipedia

Because Jehovah God (Yahweh) is the One I trust. He has protected it throughout the centuries, ...

Enlil and Nenlil protected their harmonious words through the centuries too, so....

Also,
The Pyramid Texts: The Pyramid Texts: The Oldest Known Religious Texts : History of Information
or Osiris' coffin texts Coffin Texts - Wikipedia
The Epic of Gilgamesh. Written: Circa 2100 BC. ...
The Rigveda. Written: Circa 1700 BC. ...
The Book of the Dead. ...
The Instruction of Amenemope. ...
The Samaveda....

Interesting to see what all the gods have preserved.
 
Last edited:

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
First century ruled by the ' god of this world ' of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4
Please notice the many 'WOES' that Jesus pronounced against the religious leaders of his day and his reasons for those many 'WOES' as found at the 23rd chapter of Matthew.

In Scripture, it was Adam who by disobeying God and set up People Rule as superior to God Rule.
So, since Adam's fall and to our day God has permitted Man to rule or govern.
In MAN's history I find that MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury.

Humans have also helped and supported humans to human benefit. We're complicated. :shrug:
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm speaking about Bible texts. The harmonious '66' Bible texts.
But why 66, or more to the point, why are there 27 NT books, and not 13, or 36? There could be, as these were all Christian texts in use in the different churches in early Christianity. You don't believe me? Look here: Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Why only those 27, and not all the many many more that were circulated and in use in Christian churches during those time periods? Who narrowed it down to the 27 you have? Can you answer that directly? Who? Identify them.

Harmony is the 'why'. The Bible throughout has harmonious corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages.
Nonsense. Anyone can collate books together and create a "harmony" if they wish. You could do it with books you pick up at the library and stitch them together into some master story arc that you think exists as you read them altogether. "Harmonization" is an after-the-fact creation. It's an overlay to the individual stories.

Yes, they'll have commonalities, to be sure. But no, they aren't one single story. They are many stories about God, from each author's perspectives, including those Christian texts that didn't get added to the current 27 because of editors, not God.

When Jesus said out of the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established means: Bible writers.
The Bible writers of the '66' Bible books are in harmony with each other.
There are scholars who disagree. The 3 synoptic gospels for instance. There are very clear contradictions in details between them. You may try to collate or stitch them together into a quilt of sorts as the "whole story", but that does the individual gospels an injustice. Each one was meant to tell the Jesus story from the storyteller's perspective.

They are "according to" texts, not historians. They are Matthew's perspective, Mark's perspective, Luke's perspective, John's perspective, etc. They are telling the story, with their own creations, according to their views of Jesus. That's great. I like that. But don't say they're recording history, and that the Gospel is a master overlay "harmonization" of the stories. That misses the point. The Gospel is the "good news", and Matthew told it his way, Mark his, John his, etc.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No they didn’t. You misunderstood.
Show me. Quote the link.
As promised.... Syncretism.....Can Mixing Religious Ideas Lead to the Truth?

Same may claim to be JW’s, just to cause confusion.
You tell that to her. ;)

Probably like the “secret database” list. (You don’t believe everything you read on the internet, do you?)
The Atlantic, is a highly reputable and respected magazine that has been around for a long time. That's not "the internet", like it's like reading some dudes post in a forum like this. :)

It's well researched, documented, supported, article. If you have Amazon, you might want to watch this documentary series on that topic, which goes into a lot of this. Well worth the watch. Very informative. Watch The Witnesses, Season 1 | Prime Video

But this is not to say all JWs are bad. Just as you can't say all Catholics are bad because they have a problem with pedophiles too.

We disfellowship ones who commit such deeds. You didn’t know that? Yes you did.
Our disfellowshipping procedure reveals the “secret database” claim to be false.
Yes, watch that video. It goes into all of this. And it is not false.

Watch The Witnesses, Season 1 | Prime Video
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another claim I never made!
Source:
Eventually, though, when Ephesians 1:10 & Revelation 21:3-4 are fulfilled, all humans living will recognize Jehovah as God & Creator. I hope you’ll be there!
You hope I'll be there? Why would you assume I'm not saved, as I asked?

I hope this satisfies that I don't make stuff up. I was just too busy at the time to go through all that quote searches before....
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member

I appreciate the effort you put forth to find this post.
But look at what Deeje says...
Nowhere, in the entire post, does she say “RCC”, does she?
Rather, she says:

“The whore of Babylon” I believe encompasses all religion that embraces Babylonian religious concepts,

And it’s not limited to just those, either. Any religious thinking that doesn’t recognize Jehovah / Yahweh as Creator & Sovereign, is included.
Why?

Because one of the descriptive aspects of Babylon the Great, is found in Revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth. .

That would include Abel. Abel was “slain”, killed by his brother, whose thinking was opposed to Jehovah’s. Jehovah even tried to reason with Cain, but when Cain disobeyed God, that made it religious.

And ever since, anyone who slays an innocent person, is disobeying God’s standards. Hence, they’re are not following true religion.

Divinely-inspired religion, generates love for others, the desire to help them. Not hurt them.
That’s one reason it’s hard to follow in this world. This world’s system fosters selfishness, and at times of (political) conflict, violence & murder. And most religion has supported conflicts of their respective nations, at those times!

What is the established history of the RCC during those times? Any different from Protestantism?

Jesus’ commands to “love your brother”, are ignored during times of conflict. They’ve ‘slain their brothers’, part of the description of the Whore of Babylon.

That is one reason why the plea of God, “Get out of her, my people”, is so important!
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I appreciate the effort you put forth to find this post.
But look at what Deeje says...
Nowhere, in the entire post, does she say “RCC”, does she?
Rather, she says:
Yes, true, but the context was about churches who consider the RCC to be the Apostate False Church of the book of Revelation. You don't believe that to be true?

Plus the next post, which was a continuation of that post I linked to, does mention the RCC by name in the context of talking about the supposedly 'false doctrine' of the Trinity. So the entire context, was about the Catholic church, where your bible came from, yet supposedly being the false church, the church of the antichrist, the "Whore of Babylon", in other words.

Have you ever read, or are familiar with The Two Babylons book, or references thereto in anything you have been taught, or heard from others? I used to be part of a group quite similar to the JWs in their own right, who likewise were anti-Trinitarian. That was a well-known book amongst us. Have you never heard of it, or something like that?

All I'm saying in all of this is this. I used to believe that stuff too that I was taught, but eventually it gnawed at me how that we considered them so lost and spiritually blind, yet 98% of what we believed was brought to us by them! That never made sense to me.

I would think, they gave us what we have today, and somehow all of that was just for us and our "restored church" God gave us the early 1900s, very similar to those other religious sects of that time, including our cousins the JWs? There was a lot of that going around back then, and that's where they all came from. Each, with the real truth that the fallen apostate RCC church had thrown out, now restored for the Last Days. Very similar. I eventually saw the man behind that curtain.

What is the established history of the RCC during those times? Any different from Protestantism?

Jesus’ commands to “love your brother”, are ignored during times of conflict. They’ve ‘slain their brothers’, part of the description of the Whore of Babylon.

That is one reason why the plea of God, “Get out of her, my people”, is so important!
The systems of the world, getting swept up in them, letting them corrupt what is other good and well-meaning organizations is not limited to the RCC. It is all systems, regardless of what they believe in. If you are so inclined as to read and research further on that within you own organization, I think that should bring things into a more balanced and fair perspective.

But specifically about the RCC and the Whore of Babylon. Rome is directly identified in Revelation as that Whore. It sits upon 7 hills, which is referring to Rome itself. So, these later anti-Catholic protestants have all historically identified that Whore as the RCC. I'm a little surprised that you might not be familiar with all of this.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Plus the next post, which was a continuation of that post I linked to, does mention the RCC by name in the context of talking about the supposedly 'false doctrine' of the Trinity. So the entire context, was about the Catholic church, where your bible came from, yet supposedly being the false church, the church of the antichrist, the "Whore of Babylon", in other words.
The RCC is the mother church, formed over 300 years after the death of Christ, in circumstances ripe for the foretold and developing apostasy, it’s descent into the most evil behavior is clearly visible in history, stepping completely outside of the guidelines that Jesus set, they gained power over even the kings of the earth. Power, as we know, corrupts.

What Jesus said to the Pharisees applies equally to the religious leaders of Christendom, founded not by Jesus Christ but by imposters who claimed to represent him.

2 Peter 2:2-3 is Peter’s warning about this very thing.....Judaism would find its equal in Christendom...all spawned by the “mother” church....
2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping.”

There will be an accounting. Their teachings have not changed, even though their more abhorrent behavior finally did.

Have you ever read, or are familiar with The Two Babylons book, or references thereto in anything you have been taught, or heard from others? I used to be part of a group quite similar to the JWs in their own right, who likewise were anti-Trinitarian. That was a well-known book amongst us. Have you never heard of it, or something like that?
Yes and we understand why his writings were discredited.....still the evidence of the truth he exposed is undeniable IMO.

All I'm saying in all of this is this. I used to believe that stuff too that I was taught, but eventually it gnawed at me how that we considered them so lost and spiritually blind, yet 98% of what we believed was brought to us by them! That never made sense to me.
Actually 98% of what they teach is absolute lies. If you have studied the Bible you will clearly see that what happened to the Pharisees was repeated by an apostate church, drunk with its own power and demonstrated in its anti-Christian conduct.

For many centuries it was the only “Christianity”, just as Judaism was the only religion of the Jews in Jesus’ day. (With a few offshoots) But the church also took a very dim view of any who disagreed and showed them what it meant to say anything against the church....certain death following torture to procure a “confession” was the result. The Jews were guilty of the same conduct when they persecuted Jesus and his disciples and orchestrated the murder of their own Messiah.
Burning humans alive was the reflection of the “god” that Catholicism worshipped, whom they taught burned souls alive eternally in a fiery hell. That was not the God of Abraham or Jesus Christ.

I would think, they gave us what we have today, and somehow all of that was just for us and our "restored church" God gave us the early 1900s, very similar to those other religious sects of that time, including our cousins the JWs? There was a lot of that going around back then, and that's where they all came from. Each, with the real truth that the fallen apostate RCC church had thrown out, now restored for the Last Days. Very similar. I eventually saw the man behind that curtain.
It was time for the reawakening that Daniel had spoken about for the “time of the end”....a “cleansing, whitening and refining” was foretold (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) because Christ was due to return as he promised, and a small group of men from different denominations of Christianity were preparing, all driven by the same strong desire....to clean up their worship so as to be ready when Christ’s “presence” was manifested...not in a supernatural display, but discerned only by world events, all occurring within one specific period of time as a prelude to the final judgment. (Matthew 24:3-14) Only then would the reality of Christ’s presence be obvious. The “time of the end” would be a time of judgment and separation....with every human alive at that time having opportunity to respond to the global preaching that Jesus said he would support. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
You have probably heard all of this, but where does that put you now? Where do you see yourself in this scenario?

The systems of the world, getting swept up in them, letting them corrupt what is other good and well-meaning organizations is not limited to the RCC. It is all systems, regardless of what they believe in. If you are so inclined as to read and research further on that within you own organization, I think that should bring things into a more balanced and fair perspective.
We are fully aware of what is taking place in the world and in the religious systems that draw people for various reasons...but also very mindful of the fact that wearing a label saves no one. If we know how to do what is right and yet we don’t do it, how is that judged by God?...religion or no religion.

It is our individual response to “the good news of the Kingdom” that is the divider between the saved and the disobedient. As much as we might think that God should cut people some slack, we are all telling him who we are every day of our lives. If we accept and practise what God condemns, then how can we qualify for citizenship in his Kingdom? According to the Scriptures, the one thing that God requires of his people is obedience. We don’t get to dictate to the Creator....he has absolute authority to dictate to us. If we defy him, what do we think might happen? Doesn’t the Bible tell us very clearly how unwise that is? How many Bible examples do we need?


But specifically about the RCC and the Whore of Babylon. Rome is directly identified in Revelation as that Whore. It sits upon 7 hills, which is referring to Rome itself. So, these later anti-Catholic protestants have all historically identified that Whore as the RCC. I'm a little surprised that you might not be familiar with all of this.
“Babylon the great” is so much bigger than Rome....it is a global empire set up by the devil to entrap those who want to practice religion ”their way”.....he caters to every taste and mimics the things that attract people such as false miracles and showy entertainment types of worship......but corruption is always lurking somewhere. It gives people a false sense of security and leads them away from the true God into worship that is opposed to him. That is truly sad, but we are all judged the same way, by the same criteria.

Church of one or church of many.....makes no difference if it’s not the one appointed by Jesus Christ. He is leading the “wheat” in this “time of the end” and they will be so different to the “weeds” that the majority of those who identify as “Christians” would not recognise them as such. But the Jews did not recognise Jesus and his apostles as genuinely Jewish either.....he was so disparaged, especially by the religious leaders, that they were able to orchestrate putting that innocent man to death. The Jews, firmly convinced of his guilt, even cursed themselves and their children with his blood. ( Matthew 27:24-25)
Jesus foretold that his true disciples would be on the receiving end of the same kind of hostility. (John 15:18-21)

That is what my studies of the Bible have revealed to me.....
 
Last edited:

Muffled

Jesus in me
Indeed. Given the fact that we have basically no clue what the movement was like in its earliest decades, it's an open question what "true," "original" Christianity was really like.

I believe we have a clue from Paul's letters to the Corinthians. Even then sin managed to creep into the church. That church certainly doesn't serve as a good model for Churchianity.
 
Top