Synods & Sophistry: Some Thoughts

[Glaurung]

Recently, Pope Francis held a questions and answers session with a bunch of journalists. While I usually ignore such things an answer he gave to one of the questions he was asked caught my notice. The question essentially asked if the conservative fears of a change in Catholic moral doctrine had a real basis. This is how the Holy Father answered:

I don't know if I've already said this before. A few months ago, I called a Carmelite. “How are the nuns doing, Mother Superior?” She was a non-Italian Carmelite. And the prioress answered me. And she finally said to me: “Your Holiness, we are afraid with this Synod.” "Now what’s going on?” I said jokingly. “Do you want to send a sister to the Synod?” “No, we are afraid you are going to change doctrine.” And this is what she was saying, she had this idea…

But if you go to the root of these ideas, you will find ideologies. Always, when one wants to detach from the path of communion in the Church, what always pulls it apart is ideology. And they accuse the Church of this or that, but they never make an accusation of what is true: (it is made up of) sinners. They never speak of sin ... They defend a “doctrine”, a doctrine like distilled water that has no taste and is not true Catholic doctrine, that is, in the Creed. And that very often scandalizes. How scandalous is the idea that God became flesh, that God became Man, that Our Lady kept her virginity? This scandalizes.
​

None of this actually answers the question. We are given a non-committal and borderline incoherent digression accusing those apprehensive about the synod of being captured by ideology. The refusal to speak plainly about this issue suggests to me that the conservatives are right. The synod is a pretext to shift Catholic doctrine on sexuality and gender in a progressive direction.

We live in an era of sophistry and doublespeak and the Catholic Church is evidently not immune. The next two years could see the falsification of the Church's claims to indefectibility if the progressives get what they want. More likely though I expect them to release a long jargon filled document that will say everything and nothing and the status quo will continue until the next conclave.

At the end of the day, if the Church is what it claims to be then the Holy Spirit will never allow the Magisterium to fall into heresy. The liberal Catholic project is therefore doomed to failure. Either the Catholic Chruch teaches perennial moral truth or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Either the Church is right and secular morality is wrong, or the Church is wrong and we should all do away with religion all together.

Pope Francis warns against ideologies in Church and world - Vatican News

 

[Viker]

We live in an era of sophistry and doublespeak and the Catholic Church is evidently not immune

Is this really all that different than the last era of sophistry and doublespeak?

New names for the same ole same ole.

 

[Viker]

Either the Catholic Chruch teaches perennial moral truth or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Either the Church is right and secular morality is wrong, or the Church is wrong and we should all do away with religion all together.

The Church has never cornered the market on perennial moral truth nor morality in general. Nothing like genuine morality, regard for human rights and the such existed until the secular era.

You can not remove the speck from your brothers eye until you remove the plank from your own. Sound familiar?

 

[sayak83]

Recently, Pope Francis held a questions and answers session with a bunch of journalists. While I usually ignore such things an answer he gave to one of the questions he was asked caught my notice. The question essentially asked if the conservative fears of a change in Catholic moral doctrine had a real basis. This is how the Holy Father answered:

I don't know if I've already said this before. A few months ago, I called a Carmelite. “How are the nuns doing, Mother Superior?” She was a non-Italian Carmelite. And the prioress answered me. And she finally said to me: “Your Holiness, we are afraid with this Synod.” "Now what’s going on?” I said jokingly. “Do you want to send a sister to the Synod?” “No, we are afraid you are going to change doctrine.” And this is what she was saying, she had this idea…

But if you go to the root of these ideas, you will find ideologies. Always, when one wants to detach from the path of communion in the Church, what always pulls it apart is ideology. And they accuse the Church of this or that, but they never make an accusation of what is true: (it is made up of) sinners. They never speak of sin ... They defend a “doctrine”, a doctrine like distilled water that has no taste and is not true Catholic doctrine, that is, in the Creed. And that very often scandalizes. How scandalous is the idea that God became flesh, that God became Man, that Our Lady kept her virginity? This scandalizes.
​

None of this actually answers the question. We are given a non-committal and borderline incoherent digression accusing those apprehensive about the synod of being captured by ideology. The refusal to speak plainly about this issue suggests to me that the conservatives are right. The synod is a pretext to shift Catholic doctrine on sexuality and gender in a progressive direction.

We live in an era of sophistry and doublespeak and the Catholic Church is evidently not immune. The next two years could see the falsification of the Church's claims to indefectibility if the progressives get what they want. More likely though I expect them to release a long jargon filled document that will say everything and nothing and the status quo will continue until the next conclave.

At the end of the day, if the Church is what it claims to be then the Holy Spirit will never allow the Magisterium to fall into heresy. The liberal Catholic project is therefore doomed to failure. Either the Catholic Chruch teaches perennial moral truth or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Either the Church is right and secular morality is wrong, or the Church is wrong and we should all do away with religion all together.

Pope Francis warns against ideologies in Church and world - Vatican News

This pope is right. It is not the task of a Christian church to propagate or abide by a set of perennial moral truths and hold them as standards to judge people. Of course that will not be welcome by the conservative segment who really really like to do this.

 

[Glaurung]

Is this really all that different than the last era of sophistry and doublespeak?

Sophistry has always existed. But I think we live in a time where it has become rather pronounced.

The Church has never cornered the market on perennial moral truth nor morality in general. Nothing like genuine morality, regard for human rights and the such existed until the secular era.

The Church does indeed claim to be the divinely appointed custodian of divine revelation. The Magisterium claims to be guaranteed by God to never fall into theological or moral error. Thus the pope and the bishops have the right to teach authoritatively so long as they teach the Christian faith. The fear is that many in the hierarchy are not teaching the Christian faith but rather secular progressivism in a trite Christian garb. The fear is that this synod will practically enshrine that progressivism as Chruch doctrine. (Assuming God will permit such a thing to happen).

If it does happen and God fails to intervene to set things right, then Catholicism will be shown to be false.

This pope is right. It is not the task of a Christian church to propagate or abide by a set of perennial moral truths and hold them as standards to judge people. Of course that will not be welcome by the conservative segment who really really like to do this.

Teaching and bringing people to the perennial truths revealed by God is the raison d'être of the Catholic Church. Christianity does not claim to be a religious philosophy as such. To be accepted or rejected as each person sees fit. It claims to be the New Covenant revealed by God incarnate. If Christianity is true then it is true for everyone whether they welcome it or not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Recently, Pope Francis held a questions and answers session with a bunch of journalists. While I usually ignore such things an answer he gave to one of the questions he was asked caught my notice. The question essentially asked if the conservative fears of a change in Catholic moral doctrine had a real basis. This is how the Holy Father answered:

I don't know if I've already said this before. A few months ago, I called a Carmelite. “How are the nuns doing, Mother Superior?” She was a non-Italian Carmelite. And the prioress answered me. And she finally said to me: “Your Holiness, we are afraid with this Synod.” "Now what’s going on?” I said jokingly. “Do you want to send a sister to the Synod?” “No, we are afraid you are going to change doctrine.” And this is what she was saying, she had this idea…

But if you go to the root of these ideas, you will find ideologies. Always, when one wants to detach from the path of communion in the Church, what always pulls it apart is ideology. And they accuse the Church of this or that, but they never make an accusation of what is true: (it is made up of) sinners. They never speak of sin ... They defend a “doctrine”, a doctrine like distilled water that has no taste and is not true Catholic doctrine, that is, in the Creed. And that very often scandalizes. How scandalous is the idea that God became flesh, that God became Man, that Our Lady kept her virginity? This scandalizes.
​

None of this actually answers the question. We are given a non-committal and borderline incoherent digression accusing those apprehensive about the synod of being captured by ideology. The refusal to speak plainly about this issue suggests to me that the conservatives are right. The synod is a pretext to shift Catholic doctrine on sexuality and gender in a progressive direction.

We live in an era of sophistry and doublespeak and the Catholic Church is evidently not immune. The next two years could see the falsification of the Church's claims to indefectibility if the progressives get what they want. More likely though I expect them to release a long jargon filled document that will say everything and nothing and the status quo will continue until the next conclave.

At the end of the day, if the Church is what it claims to be then the Holy Spirit will never allow the Magisterium to fall into heresy. The liberal Catholic project is therefore doomed to failure. Either the Catholic Chruch teaches perennial moral truth or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Either the Church is right and secular morality is wrong, or the Church is wrong and we should all do away with religion all together.

Pope Francis warns against ideologies in Church and world - Vatican News

I am certainly not understanding what the Pope means when he says ideologies. All religious belief systems are a subcategory of ideology. Is he saying that Catholicism has no beliefs? Or is he using the word ideology in an idiosyncratic way?

 

[Glaurung]

I am certainly not understanding what the Pope means when he says ideologies. All religious belief systems are a subcategory of ideology. Is he saying that Catholicism has no beliefs? Or is he using the word ideology in an idiosyncratic way?

Pope Francis clearly desires to reform Catholic practice and doctrine in a more progressive direction. But he cannot do so outright without risking a schism. (Thus, the endless synods). Pope Francis' problem is that the conservatives and traditionalists insist (correctly given the Church's own teaching) that the moral doctrines the progressives wish to undermine or even renounce are non-negotiable truths revealed by God and the natural law. This conservative intransigence is the main hurdle getting in the way of the Francis project thus his endless attacks on conservatives and traditionalists as right-wing ideologues.

 

[sun rise]

Pope Francis clearly desires to reform Catholic practice and doctrine in a more progressive direction. But he cannot do so outright without risking a schism. (Thus, the endless synods). Pope Francis' problem is that the conservatives and traditionalists insist (correctly given the Church's own teaching) that the moral doctrines the progressives wish to undermine or even renounce are non-negotiable truths revealed by God and the natural law. This conservative intransigence is the main hurdle getting in the way of the Francis project thus his endless attacks on conservatives and traditionalists as right-wing ideologues.

From what I've seen, the American Catholic church has cast what the Pope has been saying in American political terms hence "right-wing" etc. I've seen nothing to indicate that the Pope wants to change fundamental Catholic teachings but rather view them from a different frame of reference. I've read, for example, that he sees a culture of life from cradle to grave not as simply about abortion. Even when it comes to the difference in married priests between the western church which does not allow them and the eastern church which does, he's not reconciled that difference into one practice for all of Catholicism.

 

[Glaurung]

From what I've seen, the American Catholic church has cast what the Pope has been saying in American political terms hence "right-wing" etc. I've seen nothing to indicate that the Pope wants to change fundamental Catholic teachings but rather view them from a different frame of reference.

This is the kind of doublespeak I have lost all patience for.

I've read, for example, that he sees a culture of life from cradle to grave not as simply about abortion.

This is true. But this kind of talk is often a rhetorical sleight of hand by those who wish to avoid acknowledging the evil of abortion. Anyone who believes that an immortal soul is created with each and every conception can never accept abortion as but one of many issues. It is a legally sanctioned mass murder of the innocent.

Even when it comes to the difference in married priests between the western church which does not allow them and the eastern church which does, he's not reconciled that difference into one practice for all of Catholicism.

Different rites have differing laws. That has always been the case. Though allowing for greater exceptions in regards to married priests is one compromise the Latin Church could actually make without doctrinal issue.

 

[metis]

I am certainly not understanding what the Pope means when he says ideologies. All religious belief systems are a subcategory of ideology. Is he saying that Catholicism has no beliefs? Or is he using the word ideology in an idiosyncratic way?

His concern is that secular political influences can distort the basic Church teachings as there's a rift between the conservatives and liberals that often involves secular politics.

 

[sun rise]

This is the kind of doublespeak I have lost all patience for.

So exactly what do you object to that Pope Francis has written or said?

When I read what he has written or said, I find it fully part of the Catholic Church. For example

54. Absorbed and deepened in the family, faith becomes a light capable of illumining all our relationships in society. As an experience of the mercy of God the Father, it sets us on the path of brotherhood. Modernity sought to build a universal brotherhood based on equality, yet we gradually came to realize that this brotherhood, lacking a reference to a common Father as its ultimate foundation, cannot endure. We need to return to the true basis of brotherhood. The history of faith has been from the beginning a history of brotherhood, albeit not without conflict. God calls Abraham to go forth from his land and promises to make of him a great nation, a great people on whom the divine blessing rests (cf. Gen 12:1-3). As salvation history progresses, it becomes evident that God wants to make everyone share as brothers and sisters in that one blessing, which attains its fullness in Jesus, so that all may be one. The boundless love of our Father also comes to us, in Jesus, through our brothers and sisters. Faith teaches us to see that every man and woman represents a blessing for me, that the light of God’s face shines on me through the faces of my brothers and sisters.

And as far as abortion goes:

Pope Francis responded that “abortion is more than an issue. Abortion is murder.”

“Scientifically it’s a human life. The textbooks teach us that. But is it right to take it out to solve a problem? This is why the Church is so strict on this issue because accepting this is kind of like accepting daily murder,” Francis said.

 

[exchemist]

Recently, Pope Francis held a questions and answers session with a bunch of journalists. While I usually ignore such things an answer he gave to one of the questions he was asked caught my notice. The question essentially asked if the conservative fears of a change in Catholic moral doctrine had a real basis. This is how the Holy Father answered:

I don't know if I've already said this before. A few months ago, I called a Carmelite. “How are the nuns doing, Mother Superior?” She was a non-Italian Carmelite. And the prioress answered me. And she finally said to me: “Your Holiness, we are afraid with this Synod.” "Now what’s going on?” I said jokingly. “Do you want to send a sister to the Synod?” “No, we are afraid you are going to change doctrine.” And this is what she was saying, she had this idea…

But if you go to the root of these ideas, you will find ideologies. Always, when one wants to detach from the path of communion in the Church, what always pulls it apart is ideology. And they accuse the Church of this or that, but they never make an accusation of what is true: (it is made up of) sinners. They never speak of sin ... They defend a “doctrine”, a doctrine like distilled water that has no taste and is not true Catholic doctrine, that is, in the Creed. And that very often scandalizes. How scandalous is the idea that God became flesh, that God became Man, that Our Lady kept her virginity? This scandalizes.
​

None of this actually answers the question. We are given a non-committal and borderline incoherent digression accusing those apprehensive about the synod of being captured by ideology. The refusal to speak plainly about this issue suggests to me that the conservatives are right. The synod is a pretext to shift Catholic doctrine on sexuality and gender in a progressive direction.

We live in an era of sophistry and doublespeak and the Catholic Church is evidently not immune. The next two years could see the falsification of the Church's claims to indefectibility if the progressives get what they want. More likely though I expect them to release a long jargon filled document that will say everything and nothing and the status quo will continue until the next conclave.

At the end of the day, if the Church is what it claims to be then the Holy Spirit will never allow the Magisterium to fall into heresy. The liberal Catholic project is therefore doomed to failure. Either the Catholic Chruch teaches perennial moral truth or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Either the Church is right and secular morality is wrong, or the Church is wrong and we should all do away with religion all together.

Pope Francis warns against ideologies in Church and world - Vatican News

This is a side of Catholicism that has always repelled me. It is patently ridiculous to claim the church, as a human institution, cannot err. Practices have always changed in the church and actually doctrines too. If new ones can be added (e.g. the rather doubtful doctrine of the Assumption), why cannot others be rescinded?

The pope is right when he says he detects ideology behind the supposed defence of "doctrine". Doctrinal purity is a weapon conservatives in the church wield, to stifle any change to adapt to the modern world. The dichotomy you are suggesting seems to me to be a false one. Secular morality has a lot in it that is right, surely? This is to be expected in Western societies, since that morality has in large part sprung from the Christian tradition that underpins European (and thus Western) civilisation.

As for the church, it can perfectly well teach "moral truth" but may still make errors, or at least may need to adapt to changes in the conditions of humanity. If as you say the Holy Spirit guides it, we should in point of fact expect changes, not just an unthinking continuation of an ossified tradition - otherwise there is no guidance in any practical sense.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

His concern is that secular political influences can distort the basic Church teachings as there's a rift between the conservatives and liberals that often involves secular politics.

The conservative Catholics in the US are not making a stink about politics. They are concerned with the ethics and moral teachings of the Church. For example, the CC has said that abortion is a mortal sin, one punishable by automatic excommunication. Yet Pope Francis cozies up to politicians whose policies keep abortion legal. Another big issue for them is homosexuality. Gay sex has always been a mortal sin, and same sex attraction has been labeled by previous papacies as intrinsically disordered. Yet Pope Francis makes remarks like "Who am I to judge?" Personally I'm highly sympathetic to Pope Francis' desire to focus on the ethics of compassion to the poor and our responsibility to our planet home. I'm just saying that the objections of Trad Caths is religious, not political.

 

[exchemist]

The conservative Catholics in the US are not making a stink about politics. They are concerned with the ethics and moral teachings of the Church. For example, the CC has said that abortion is a mortal sin, one punishable by automatic excommunication. Yet Pope Francis cozies up to politicians whose policies keep abortion legal. Another big issue for them is homosexuality. Gay sex has always been a mortal sin, and same sex attraction has been labeled by previous papacies as intrinsically disordered. Yet Pope Francis makes remarks like "Who am I to judge?" Personally I'm highly sympathetic to Pope Francis' desire to focus on the ethics of compassion to the poor and our responsibility to our planet home. I'm just saying that the objections of Trad Caths is religious, not political.

Yes but it is political, actually. The essence of conservatism is wariness of change. For instance opposition to gay relationships in western society these days is the mark of a very old-fashioned conservative. You can see how political this by the level of support of Trump (bizarrely, considering his utterly un-Christian, even evil, behaviour) from many of these trad Catholics in the USA. How QAnon and Trumpism Have Revealed a Deep Church Schism Among Catholics

 

[sun rise]

Yet Pope Francis cozies up to politicians whose policies keep abortion legal.

It appears that you are asking for the Pope to be judgemental.

My reading of Pope Francis is that he puts the most important commandments, love, first. His remarks that the Church should be pastoral and focus on the "least". His statements show that he wants to walk with sinners and to reach them with love not with bureaucratic judgement about this sins.

 

[sun rise]

Yet Pope Francis cozies up to politicians whose policies keep abortion legal.

My reading of Pope Francis is that he puts the most important commandments, love, first. His remarks that the Church should be pastoral and focus on the "least". His statements show that he wants to walk with sinners and to reach them with love not with bureaucratic judgement about their sins.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My reading of Pope Francis is that he puts the most important commandments, love, first. His remarks that the Church should be pastoral and focus on the "least". His statements show that he wants to walk with sinners and to reach them with love not with bureaucratic judgement about their sins.

He is treating things that have been considered mortal sins for 2000 years as if they are no longer sins. Again, I like Pope Francis. I appreciate his emphasis on loving others. But I can understand how some Catholics are tearing their hair out with him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It appears that you are asking for the Pope to be judgemental.

Yes. He is the moral and religious leader of the Catholic church. Part of his job is to teach very clearly what is right and what is wrong. That's his JOB. "Who am I to judge?" Well, heck, he is the Pope, that's who.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes but it is political, actually. The essence of conservatism is wariness of change. For instance opposition to gay relationships in western society these days is the mark of a very old-fashioned conservative. You can see how political this by the level of support of Trump (bizarrely, considering his utterly un-Christian, even evil, behaviour) from many of these trad Catholics in the USA. How QAnon and Trumpism Have Revealed a Deep Church Schism Among Catholics

The Catholic church by definition is conservative, because it teaches that the doctrines of the church are infallible. It's one thing to reword the liturgy. It's another thing to say, "Hey remember how that was a sin? Well it's not a sin anymore, so go for it."

 

[Glaurung]

This is a side of Catholicism that has always repelled me. It is patently ridiculous to claim the church, as a human institution, cannot err. Practices have always changed in the church and actually doctrines too. If new ones can be added (e.g. the rather doubtful doctrine of the Assumption), why cannot others be rescinded?

The issue is not that Christianity has undergone doctrinal development in its two-thousand-year history. The issue is that the demands of secular modernity on certain issues of moral doctrine demand a rejection of perennial Christian teaching. It demands a rejection of clear Scriptural teaching. That is that those who die in unrepentant sexual sin will be denied the beatific vision.

The pope is right when he says he detects ideology behind the supposed defence of "doctrine". Doctrinal purity is a weapon conservatives in the church wield, to stifle any change to adapt to the modern world. The dichotomy you are suggesting seems to me to be a false one. Secular morality has a lot in it that is right, surely? This is to be expected in Western societies, since that morality has in large part sprung from the Christian tradition that underpins European (and thus Western) civilisation.

The job of the Catholic Church is to teach and safeguard the Christian faith, not to sacralize the fashionable opinions of an irreligious culture. Doctrine is real whether Francis and his bishops like it or not. And if the Church cannot bring itself to uphold the convictions it claims to hold then to Hell with it.

As for the church, it can perfectly well teach "moral truth" but may still make errors, or at least may need to adapt to changes in the conditions of humanity. If as you say the Holy Spirit guides it, we should in point of fact expect changes, not just an unthinking continuation of an ossified tradition - otherwise there is no guidance in any practical sense.

To claim that the current conditions of humanity are so fundamentally different that God can no longer hold us to the moral truths he himself revealed in Scripture is not a claim I can entertain assuming Christianity is true. (An open question for me at this point). In any case the notion that God has suddenly and oh so conveniently changed his mind on issues of sexual morality (primarily) is an attempt to scratch itching ears.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4:2-4
​