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Taking good things out of bad.

Rex

Founder
Most people say the bad things that happen in their life they would not change b/c its bring out good things through experience.

While this is true to an extent why not eliminate these bad things and just learn through others experiences, i.e. wisdom.


I hope to learn more through my good days than bad.

:roll:
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Rex -

"Most people say the bad things that happen in their life they would not change b/c its bring out good things through experience.

While this is true to an extent why not eliminate these bad things and just learn through others experiences, i.e. wisdom."

If I could actually do that, I would be a great deal farther ahead than I am. Like most people, I had to bang my own head into the wall in order to realize that the wall is hard, and there are better ways of making a hole. If you can truly learn from others' mistakes, I expect to see you supplanting either Bill Gates, George Bush, or someone similar very soon now (depending on which direction you choose to take). It's kind of like telling a child not to touch the stove because it's hot. You can tell them 20 times, and they may believe you, but they don't truly understand what that means. After they have burned themselves once, then understanding comes. After that they listen very closely when you tell them something is hot.

The quote I like goes something like this:

"Good Judgement comes from Experience.
Unfortunately, Experience comes from Bad Judgement."

I look on all situations, "bad" or "good", as learning experiences. If I can get hold of the lesson the first time through, maybe I won't have to repeat the "bad" situations.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Believe it or not, there IS a purpose to suffering:

Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism all regard suffering as an inevitable if not necessary element of human life, and they each even go so far as to perceive a possible purpose to suffering. In all three traditions suffering is believed to play a part in the liberation of an individual from the imperfection of human existence. It is believed that through suffering, and only suffering, are Nirvana and the Kingdom of Heaven attainable. Unfortunately, the average population finds itself so caught up in dealing with the never-ending struggles and tribulations of daily life that few people take the time to think that perhaps their misery has a purpose. It is difficult if not impossible to see the purpose of suffering when such misery destroys one’s faith, hope, and joy. It is even more difficult for people to view suffering as a creation of God. After all, He is supposed to represent creation and suffering is, to put it quite simply, a destructive force. Though from a religious point of view suffering brings one closer to God, in times of misery the exact opposite is also true. In times of misery people are far more likely to abandon their religion than to become more involved in it. The concept of Nirvana as an escape from suffering is nice to think about, but not many people are able to truly achieve this state. Another obvious reason for humanity’s inability to see suffering as necessary is that they cannot understand why this so called “just and loving God” would allow “His children” to experience so much pain. In order for them to endure their suffering they need more immediate reasons to believe that suffering has its uses than the ones presented by religion. The reasons that can be found are threefold: suffering can serve as a warning, as a lesson, and through these lessons and warnings can lead to a greater feeling of responsibility to others.

The warnings humanity receives from suffering can be of both a physical and emotional nature. Physical suffering can alert people to danger, but it also has the added benefit of reminding us that we are alive. In the words of Tennessee Williams, “Don't look forward to the day you stop suffering, because when it comes you'll know you're dead.” At times the absence of pain is more fearful than the pain itself; it could mean you are paralized, or dead. Suffering serves another purpose as well. The promise of mental suffering is what keeps people fearing the law. A criminal who is oblivious to the realities of prison life need not fear breaking into a store or murdering someone. Thus does suffering go hand and hand with the human conscience and the knowledge of good and evil. Imagine a world populated by people who could make wrong choices without knowing that their actions are capable of causing pain. No one is more dangerous than the liar, thief, killer, or even sadist who walks the world unaware of the harm he is doing to himself and to those around him.

Some of our suffering is, of course, the direct result of our own actions: something that we have done wrong or unwisely. Thus if we flout the physical laws in the world and step in front of a moving vehicle, we must expect to get hurt; similarly, if we go against the moral and social laws set before us and act dishonestly, we should not be shocked if we are punished when our crime is discovered. Suffering can teach lessons to a society as well as an individual. The immeasurable suffering of the Holocaust taught the world that something had to be done to prevent such a thing from ever happening again. Thus suffering exists to serve as a lesson as well as a warning.

Suffering helps us to know not only ourselves but also one another. Through suffering we can come to k now our own hearts, to test the limits of our faith, and then reach out with these emotions to interact positively (or negatively) with others. Our capacity for emotions such as love, mercy, anger, envy, and pride can remain hidden until they are roused by circumstances that test the strength of our character. Natural disasters and times of crisis have a way of bringing out these emotions and subsequently bringing the human population together. Ironically, those who suffer find themselves in a position to comfort others. After experiencing our own suffering we are instilled with a sense of responsibility to help alleviate the pain of others. It is though this concept that we find former drug abusers assisting addicts in their struggle to give up drugs, or ex-gangsters touring schools to help high school students understand why violence is wrong. An excellent example is found in the aftermath of September 11, when suddenly such movements as “March For Peace,” sprang up in our communities, and the world gathered to comfort one other (then ruined the moment few months later by deciding to bomb the hell out of one another--stupid humans). Tragedies that occur as a result of hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, riots, plague, and accidents have a remarkable way of bringing us to our senses. After the Holocaust, movements concerning human rights and crimes against humanity arose to solve the problems that had not been dealt with until the horrible reality of the Holocaust brought them to head. Clearly, suffering is necessary to force us to know ourselves and thus make the move to knowing and helping others.

“A person who is beginning to sense the suffering of life is, at the same time, beginning to awaken to deeper realities, truer realities. For suffering smashes to pieces the complacency of our normal fictions about reality, and forces us to come alive in a special sense—to see carefully, to feel deeply, to touch ourselves and our worlds in ways we have heretofore avoided... Suffering is the first grace. In a special sense, suffering is almost a time of rejoicing, for it marks the birth of creative insight.” (Ken Wilbur, A Skeptic's Guide To The Twelve Steps, p 12.) Thus does suffering have some positive aspects that until pointed out remained hidden. One need not delve in the mysticism of both Eastern and Western religions to understand that though suffering in itself is bad, what comes out of suffering can actually be considered beneficial to us all.
 
Dear Runt,

Again I feel compelled to reply to you (Ding ding seconds out round 245!)

There are two forces acting a person: pleasure and pain. Pleasure drags us forward. (We seek to attain it) Sufferings push people from behind. (We run away from them)

This is a very effective system. It compells man to find lasting solutions to his problems. Sufferings are sent to us by God for the exact purpose of making us realise that it is our own desire recieve that causes these problems in the first place. What we call correction. (Tikkun in Hebrew) One day we run away from our egoism that causes harm and run towards true pleasure - total adhesion with God.

Interestingly you make reference to human rights groups ect ect. But what good have they done us ? Have they rectified the worlds problems ? Have they put a stop to genocide, war and human rights abuses ? Since before or after the holocuast ? ANSWER - A BIG FAT NO!!!!!!

Look around to us today we now have the threat of Al-Qaeda, Bush and Blair invading any old place they see fit providing it's got enough oil and a plausable excuse to invade it, Palestians and Isaraelis again locked together like two spent swimmers who choke their art. *(Ithought you might like this Shakesperian line!) As I said in another post tell me a generation that hasn't seen a war ? There is none!

We kabbalists have a duty to spread this wisdom to as many people as possible in order to put a stop once and for all to humanitys suffering. We are already extremely late in our mission but we are trying. This wisdom will lead to a whole new existence for mankind. To join the party please visit www.kabbalah.info



Believe it or not, there IS a purpose to suffering:

Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism all regard suffering as an inevitable if not necessary element of human life, and they each even go so far as to perceive a possible purpose to suffering. In all three traditions suffering is believed to play a part in the liberation of an individual from the imperfection of human existence. It is believed that through suffering, and only suffering, are Nirvana and the Kingdom of Heaven attainable. Unfortunately, the average population finds itself so caught up in dealing with the never-ending struggles and tribulations of daily life that few people take the time to think that perhaps their misery has a purpose. It is difficult if not impossible to see the purpose of suffering when such misery destroys one’s faith, hope, and joy. It is even more difficult for people to view suffering as a creation of God. After all, He is supposed to represent creation and suffering is, to put it quite simply, a destructive force. Though from a religious point of view suffering brings one closer to God, in times of misery the exact opposite is also true. In times of misery people are far more likely to abandon their religion than to become more involved in it. The concept of Nirvana as an escape from suffering is nice to think about, but not many people are able to truly achieve this state. Another obvious reason for humanity’s inability to see suffering as necessary is that they cannot understand why this so called “just and loving God” would allow “His children” to experience so much pain. In order for them to endure their suffering they need more immediate reasons to believe that suffering has its uses than the ones presented by religion. The reasons that can be found are threefold: suffering can serve as a warning, as a lesson, and through these lessons and warnings can lead to a greater feeling of responsibility to others.

The warnings humanity receives from suffering can be of both a physical and emotional nature. Physical suffering can alert people to danger, but it also has the added benefit of reminding us that we are alive. In the words of Tennessee Williams, “Don't look forward to the day you stop suffering, because when it comes you'll know you're dead.” At times the absence of pain is more fearful than the pain itself; it could mean you are paralized, or dead. Suffering serves another purpose as well. The promise of mental suffering is what keeps people fearing the law. A criminal who is oblivious to the realities of prison life need not fear breaking into a store or murdering someone. Thus does suffering go hand and hand with the human conscience and the knowledge of good and evil. Imagine a world populated by people who could make wrong choices without knowing that their actions are capable of causing pain. No one is more dangerous than the liar, thief, killer, or even sadist who walks the world unaware of the harm he is doing to himself and to those around him.

Some of our suffering is, of course, the direct result of our own actions: something that we have done wrong or unwisely. Thus if we flout the physical laws in the world and step in front of a moving vehicle, we must expect to get hurt; similarly, if we go against the moral and social laws set before us and act dishonestly, we should not be shocked if we are punished when our crime is discovered. Suffering can teach lessons to a society as well as an individual. The immeasurable suffering of the Holocaust taught the world that something had to be done to prevent such a thing from ever happening again. Thus suffering exists to serve as a lesson as well as a warning.

Suffering helps us to know not only ourselves but also one another. Through suffering we can come to k now our own hearts, to test the limits of our faith, and then reach out with these emotions to interact positively (or negatively) with others. Our capacity for emotions such as love, mercy, anger, envy, and pride can remain hidden until they are roused by circumstances that test the strength of our character. Natural disasters and times of crisis have a way of bringing out these emotions and subsequently bringing the human population together. Ironically, those who suffer find themselves in a position to comfort others. After experiencing our own suffering we are instilled with a sense of responsibility to help alleviate the pain of others. It is though this concept that we find former drug abusers assisting addicts in their struggle to give up drugs, or ex-gangsters touring schools to help high school students understand why violence is wrong. An excellent example is found in the aftermath of September 11, when suddenly such movements as “March For Peace,” sprang up in our communities, and the world gathered to comfort one other (then ruined the moment few months later by deciding to bomb the hell out of one another--stupid humans). Tragedies that occur as a result of hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, riots, plague, and accidents have a remarkable way of bringing us to our senses. After the Holocaust, movements concerning human rights and crimes against humanity arose to solve the problems that had not been dealt with until the horrible reality of the Holocaust brought them to head. Clearly, suffering is necessary to force us to know ourselves and thus make the move to knowing and helping others.

“A person who is beginning to sense the suffering of life is, at the same time, beginning to awaken to deeper realities, truer realities. For suffering smashes to pieces the complacency of our normal fictions about reality, and forces us to come alive in a special sense—to see carefully, to feel deeply, to touch ourselves and our worlds in ways we have heretofore avoided... Suffering is the first grace. In a special sense, suffering is almost a time of rejoicing, for it marks the birth of creative insight.” (Ken Wilbur, A Skeptic's Guide To The Twelve Steps, p 12.) Thus does suffering have some positive aspects that until pointed out remained hidden. One need not delve in the mysticism of both Eastern and Western religions to understand th
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Interestingly you make reference to human rights groups ect ect. But what good have they done us ? Have they rectified the worlds problems ? Have they put a stop to genocide, war and human rights abuses?

You don't think humans rights groups have raised awareness and solved some problems? Then you are blind. Here are some: women were treated as BELOW men for many years, were unable to have any say in their lives but rather were forced to allow men to make laws for them. The Women's Sufferage Movement allowed them to vote and have a little more power in dictating their own lives. Women have been beaten and abused by their husbands and treated unfairly in the workplace because some men have had poor images of them, or they were viewed merely as sex objects. The Feminist Movement led to the development of Shelters for abused women, where they could go for help and support, helped get new laws enacted both to protect and liberate women, and made groundwork in changing the image of women in the public mind. Lets see... there was slavery once in the United States. Lots of people treated like animals, simply because of the color of their skin. They were emancipated by Lincoln not because he truly cared for them but because he knew that would be a way to help his side win the war (he believed slavery should come to an end on its own... that eventually it would "die out"). However, despite no longer being property, African Americans were treated TERRIBLY, and in many ways still are today. However the Civil Rights Movement made many advances in getting rights for African Americans, including the right to vote and thereby the chance to represent themselves, and an end to segregation. Then there have been Animal Rights Movements that have made it illegal to beat an animal (and raised public awareness about the issue). Movements have helped to ease poverty, protest wars, end child labor, reduce child abuse, and deal with several other injustices.

No, human rights movements have not completely obliterated human suffering. But by understanding suffering, they have made efforts to reduce human suffering and have made many advances.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Truthseeker -

I am not Runt..... I hope you don't mind me taking a swing at this. Buddhism teaches that the 3 poisons (greed, anger and ignorance) are inherent in human life. To overcome them we must each individually improve ourselves, learn to understand our own lives and the interconnectedness of all life. Only then will we attain the understanding needed to accomplish this task. As this happens one by one, individual by individual, humanity as a whole takes incremental steps forward.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Humanity makes the same mistakes over and over because we are limited creatures. However, we DO learn... slowly, but we learn. I did not understand that it is bad to touch a cactus until I grabbed one and realized it hurt. As a result, I have NOT grabbed a cactus ever again. I learned from my pain. Similarly, I have seen an uncle drink himself into stupidity, ruin my cousin's wedding with his drunkenness, and hurt his body. I have seen his shame at doing these things, and his struggle to stop. I have learned from his suffering and the suffering of the rest of the family and chosen not to drink myself.

We are NOT God but PART of God; we are fallable. Some of us, while enjoying this physical experience, have decided to enjoy it in such a way that hurts other people and eventually hurts themselves. This is wrong. But we can learn.

However, the answer to escaping human suffering and human mistakes lies not in ignoring them as you seem determined to do! Part of the purpose of life is to study it, to learn to understand it, and to try to make it better! Certainly not to IGNORE it completely because we are so blinded by our thoughts and our seeking for the world beyond!

Suffering helps us define the good times in our lives. There would be no pleasure without pain. The fourth Hermetic Principle is Polarity. Without it, our world would cease to exist, at least in our minds. There would be Light, but it would have no meaning without Dark, nor would God have any meaning for us, for God is Presence and you cannot have Presence without Absense. We define things by what they are not. Humans are unable to understand anything without this system of binary pairs of opposites. It is a proven fact.
 
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