Tao is amoral

[Flow]

Just as above you is the Macrocosm, a massive spiralling universe, far too huge to even idly comprehend, so too within you is a microcosm. This microcosm reaches and descends within you to the most finite level, and then beyond measurement. On top of this, every other 'cosm' of whatever size or description (a hair, another person, a distant star) has it's own microcosm descending within, and it's own perspective on the macrocosm in which it is suspended.

So it is obvious from this that the concerns of a single human individual do not count for much at all. Yes, that's right. The often harrowing emotional pain and terrible physical misfortunes that eventually befall all humans to some degree, mean not a blip to the massive massive universe as a whole. And then, to really push the point, if these issues are so insignificant in comparison to the universe that we know, consider then their significance in the larger macrocosms that our universe must surely be a minute part of...And so on......

If I were to put a skewer in your eye right now, you would not be very impressed at all. You would, from your perspective, consider my actions to be both 'wrong' and 'bad'. Wrong in that it seems right to you that I should leave your eye in peace rather than in pain; and Bad in that having both eyes in working order is a situation that you see as being 'Good'(i.e. useful and not painful). But, in reality, all of these events are only true to the universe in terms of energy exchange. All things are comprised of the single component - Energy. All matter is understood to be comprised of pure energy moving around perpetually in an infinite dance. Maintaining a balance; Yin attracted to Yang; and all in abhorrence of a vacuum. So, in terms of the Universe, or more accurately the Tao(the Unknowable Hugeness of All Things), when some unfortunate human being's eye gets poked out by some skewer wielding freak, all that happens is that an amount of configurated energy gets moved around. Arm energy moves skewer energy towards and into eyeball energy, eyeball energy falls out. Eye socket energy bleeds a lot and the vacuum left by the removed eyeball gets quickly filled up with air energy. TO THE TAO THIS IS NOT A MORAL ISSUE. This is why 'God lets bad things happen to good people'.

On the positive side, this is why you have the opportunity to free yourself from the mental traps of your social conditioning. Not that this is always an easy thing to do. Obviously most people never do. When your car breaks down and your back hurts and its hot and your' going to be late for work and your boyfriend just left you all in the same day, it can sure make you feel like the whole universe is against you. But it's not...The Universe is impartial. To the Tao, things simply are what they are, no more. No morality, no expectations, no judgment. So if, when under duress, you remind yourself of this (perhaps after a nice healthy tantrum), you can automatically relax. You are able to relax because you realize that none of it really matters, and that no preconceived idea you have about life is verifiable, and that the way your society taught you to respond to situations is completely arbitrary. Therefore you can, theoretically(!), choose to be happy at any given moment.

No matter what your current personal circumstances, it is important to remember that in an impartial universe, all things are exactly as they are meant to be at any given moment. If you doubt this, then observe nature; is the Tiger remorseful for killing the gentle Deer? Never.

By Seamus 'Moose' Ennis

 

[Onkara]

Interesting article you share, Taoist

I am quite happy to accept all that. How does one stop oneself from slipping into a nihilistic mind set and considering all of this macro+microcosm to be worth nothing, in your opinion?

 

[Flow]

Interesting article you share, Taoist

I am quite happy to accept all that. How does one stop oneself from slipping into a nihilistic mind set and considering all of this macro+microcosm to be worth nothing, in your opinion?

Its simple on how to keep oneself from slipping into a nihilistic midset:

DROP NIHILISM, Also, there is no need to place worth on the Macro-microcosm.

Once your Nihilism drops, so does its opposite. Drop one and the other will too dissolve. That is Yin-Yang. With one, the other arises, with the dissolution of one comes the dissapearance of the other.

 

[Onkara]

I like your answer
May I ask, why not call the Tao God?

 

[Flow]

I like your answer
May I ask, why not call the Tao God?

Its just a label that Lao Tzu came up with to name the un-nameable. So, i guess you could call it God. But when most people think of God they think of a warshippable being. Tao is impersonal. Its the source, the flow, the way, the rhythm, of the universe. So, God, in the mind of Lao Tzu, must not have been the best Label.

Also, it says in the TTC that it cant be named, so to get caught up in the name would be very un-taoist.

 

[Onkara]

Hi Taosit
I don't wish to de-rail your OP, but I would be interested in you further opinion. We can drop this of course if you wish to stay focused on the OP

Firstly what makes Tao personal rather than impersonal?

My guess of a Taoist answer is that it is thoughts, it is the mind which creates or find's the Tao to be with personality. Of course when the Tao has personality it can be considered a God-head, or a Deity. Along with this becomes dualism, in most religions and with that the mind is reinforced.

Secondly what is the doer? What motivates, is it the Tao, nature or something else? Another way of asking this is what brings you here?

 

[Flow]

Hi Taosit
I don't wish to de-rail your OP, but I would be interested in you further opinion. We can drop this of course if you wish to stay focused on the OP

Firstly what makes Tao personal rather than impersonal?

My guess of a Taoist answer is that it is thoughts, it is the mind which creates or find's the Tao to be with personality. Of course when the Tao has personality it can be considered a God-head, or a Deity. Along with this becomes dualism, in most religions and with that the mind is reinforced.

Secondly what is the doer? What motivates, is it the Tao, nature or something else? Another way of asking this is what brings you here?

The Tao is a principal, a law, the way of the universe. I have never found a law that has a personality. Now, your right, when the Tao is looked upon in the mind a personality does arise because the mind is the ego or personality. When you see the egoless threw your ego, you project your ego upon it. This is, for the most part, the same as with Brahman. When its looked at threw the mind, a personal God arises. So the ego projects a personality, name, and form upon formless, eternal, awareness.

What is the Doer? This is difficult to explain according to Taoism. No matter what you do, the Tao will always get what it wants done. Imagine yourself as a dirt particle in a river. The dust particle can only go the direction of the river. Now lets say that the dust particle can desire. This means that the dust particle will begin to resist the natural flow of the river. The dust particle will now either be destroyed, because of erosion (from over-resistance), or it will become tired and surrender to the flow of the river and become peaceful again. So is there a doer? Yes, and no. We can choose to go with the Tao, or we can choose to go agaisnt it. In that process we dont effect the Tao. What the Tao needs to get done will always get done. I know this is a vague and abstract answer, but thats the best I can say. You should probably, if you really want to know, experiance it yourself.

 

[Onkara]

The Tao is a principal, a law, the way of the universe. I have never found a law that has a personality.

What is the Doer? This is difficult to explain according to Taoism. No matter what you do, the Tao will always get what it wants done. So is there a doer? Yes, and no. We can choose to go with the Tao, or we can choose to go agaisnt it. In that process we dont effect the Tao. What the Tao needs to get done will always get done. I know this is a vague and abstract answer, but thats the best I can say. You should probably, if you really want to know, experiance it yourself.

(Quote reduced to save space)

Thanks Taoist!
The discussion of impersonal versus personal is important because to describe the Tao as impersonal may prompt the question "what then makes me personal?" If it my personal aspect is my personality and my personality is just thought, then who or what makes these repetitive thoughts?

There cannot be free will with the Tao, in my opinion. There cannot be choice. There is only the lack of recognition of no-choice. When we recognise that all action is the Tao then and only then do we overcome the ego and go with the tao. The point is to recognise the tao and in doing so loose the grasp of the ego. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Flow]

Thanks Taoist!
The discussion of impersonal versus personal is important because to describe the Tao as impersonal may prompt the question "what then makes me personal?" If it my personal aspect is my personality and my personality is just thought, then who or what makes these repetitive thoughts?

Somewhere along the line we become programmed, conditioned, we are told this is right, that is wrong, etc. From all of this we begin to desire, attach ourselves to things, and then think. So thought is nothing more than an accumulation of your programming, your desires, and your attachments. All of these things create how you act, how you react, your feelings, what you think is good and bad, and all of that. This is the Ego, this is the personality. This takes away our natural Spontaneity. In other religions people say that animals are unenlightened. I say they are wrong. We are all born Enlightened, one with Tao. But our conditioning gets us away. Now we are buying dogs, training (conditioning) them, and now they arent natural anymore. They have lost their "doggy" essence. The same goes with all life.

There cannot be free will with the Tao, in my opinion. There cannot be choice. There is only the lack of recognition of no-choice. When we recognise that all action is the Tao then and only then do we overcome the ego and go with the tao. The point is to recognise the tao and in doing so loose the grasp of the ego. Do you disagree with this?

When you are conditioned, the conditioning is the doer. You begin to act from past experiances, fears, what people tell you to do and not to do. Therefore, even with the Ego, your not the doer. But, when one comes to the realization that they should drop the conditioning for the Tao, that is enlightenment. Now they drop all of the man made rules, they drop the past and future and allow the now to happen spotaneously. So in both cases, there is not a doer. But, then there is. Its difficult to explain. I have read a part in a book where a moralist was talking to a Taoist and the Taoist said that people have the right to do whatever they want, complete freedom. this means that we choose or choose not to follow the Tao. There is a cosmic way, call it what you will, and you can either follow that or follow morality and ethics. When both of the man made things (morals and ethics) falls away the Id, which is the natual side of us, will break out of the chains that the ego has put on it and will at last be free to be with its mother, Tao.

Always remember that Taoism is an unorganized philosophy. Lao Tzu wrote TTC as a guide. If we want to do something else, do so! So it you see there isnt a doer, and another does, according to Taoism thats O.K. In the end if your following Tao, your alright!

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I like your description of Tao as "the Unknowable Hugeness of All Things". Also I would have to say that the idea that nothing really matters needs to be balanced by the idea that it matters on a human level. Even if it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things to you and others you affect it matters.

 

[Flow]

Also I would have to say that the idea that nothing really matters needs to be balanced by the idea that it matters on a human level. Even if it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things to you and others you affect it matters.

Your absolutly right. Thats Yin-Yang. On a macro level many things matter. but in the grand scheme of things, most things that happen on our level are almost worthless. We as humans tend to think we are so important, we are so intelligent, we know so much, when we really dont know that much. Most of our acomplishments have only lead to thousands of Nuclear Bombs, Pollution, and alot of catastrophe. Then we try to create other technology to take away the pollition, which in itself will probably create some form of pollition. Its a vicious cycle that we have created and are stuck in.

Thats why Lao Tzu says go back to nature, go back to Tao. Then all of this wouldnt happen. Things used to be simple, things used to be in harmony, balance. But then something along the line happened and here we are now. We are in so many problems it almost appears that there is no way out. If the whole world, which yes i know this is unrealistic, dropped everything went back to nature, the earth would become healthy again, good and bad, moral and amoral would cease. We would be living in simple peace and in harmony with all that is around us.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Your absolutly right. Thats Yin-Yang. On a macro level many things matter. but in the grand scheme of things, most things that happen on our level are almost worthless. We as humans tend to think we are so important, we are so intelligent, we know so much, when we really dont know that much. Most of our acomplishments have only lead to thousands of Nuclear Bombs, Pollution, and alot of catastrophe. Then we try to create other technology to take away the pollition, which in itself will probably create some form of pollition. Its a vicious cycle that we have created and are stuck in.

Thats why Lao Tzu says go back to nature, go back to Tao. Then all of this wouldnt happen. Things used to be simple, things used to be in harmony, balance. But then something along the line happened and here we are now. We are in so many problems it almost appears that there is no way out. If the whole world, which yes i know this is unrealistic, dropped everything went back to nature, the earth would become healthy again, good and bad, moral and amoral would cease. We would be living in simple peace and in harmony with all that is around us.

I agree. We do cause many problems and we do think to much of ourselves as a species. Even if the human race went back to nature even a little things would be much better.

 

[Onkara]

Great post!

Well, that which conditions can be summarised as being nature. Nature conditions. We know that nature can be impartial towards humans, so it should be no suprise that nature conditions. This goes back to your post on amoral... we are creatures driven by the desire to recreate and gain more.

Is the Tao separate to Nature? No, not in my experience. It is the same, but it still the TAo remains amoral and the Tao is still more than nature. The Tao cannot be described, it cannot be limited. This is why to give it a name is a mistake, as soon as I say "Tao is nature" then I am a victim to my own ignorance. So I drop even that thought.

In the namless Tao both free will and determination exist, because it is both spontaneous yet free from itself. If I believe I have free will then I will, if I believe not then I do not, the tao still flows. The Tao still has its way. Experience will teach us that.

 

[Onkara]

I disagree that there was ever a time which was better, the tao is itself expressive and it is only perspective which labels it better or worse. The Tao always has its way. (or please explain why I am mistaken )

 

[Flow]

Great post!

Well, that which conditions can be summarised as being nature. Nature conditions. We know that nature can be impartial towards humans, so it should be no suprise that nature conditions. This goes back to your post on amoral... we are creatures driven by the desire to recreate and gain more.

What do you mean Nature conditions.

Is the Tao separate to Nature? No, not in my experience. It is the same, but it still the TAo remains amoral and the Tao is still more than nature. The Tao cannot be described, it cannot be limited. This is why to give it a name is a mistake, as soon as I say "Tao is nature" then I am a victim to my own ignorance. So I drop even that thought.

Absolutly correct! Tao is nature, and yets its more. There is something elusive about it. Thats why Lao Tzu says that Tao is like a Mysterious Female. C'mon whats hotter and more attractive than a mysterious female! She just draws you to her!

In the namless Tao both free will and determination exist, because it is both spontaneous yet free from itself. If I believe I have free will then I will, if I believe not then I do not, the tao still flows. The Tao still has its way. Experience will teach us that.

WOW! ^^great posting right here!

 

[Flow]

I disagree that there was ever a time which was better, the tao is itself expressive and it is only perspective which labels it better or worse. The Tao always has its way. (or please explain why I am mistaken )

im not following what your saying here.

EDIT: nevermind, i understand what your saying here and I do agree. We should all just leave it up to the Tao. For that is the only thing which know whats best!

 

[joea]

Nice share..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

BTW, the amorality of THAT which is absolute is also reflected in the Abrahamic religion.

Isaiah 45.7

I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

 

[Master Vigil]

I am wondering... we as a part of the macrocosm cannot understand the macrocosm, and therefore cannot know if the tiniest cause/effect is important (it probably isn't). However, as you say within us is a microcosm, of which the tiniest gluons and quarks cannot have any understanding of me. However, I can view what happens to me as important without my gluons and quarks being any the wiser. Is it also possible that the universe follows suit?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am wondering... we as a part of the macrocosm cannot understand the macrocosm, and therefore cannot know if the tiniest cause/effect is important (it probably isn't). However, as you say within us is a microcosm, of which the tiniest gluons and quarks cannot have any understanding of me. However, I can view what happens to me as important without my gluons and quarks being any the wiser. Is it also possible that the universe follows suit?

Hi Master Vigil, IMHO this is not the way it is, for 'you' assume that your waking state consciousness ('I') is you, but in fact there is much more to you than 'you' presently are aware of. At enlightenment, omniscience is omnipresent and there is nothing unknown and the distinction between conceptual constituent parts such as gluons, egos, stars, galaxies, etc., disappears and there is just the indivisible unity beyond the minds concept of IT, i.e. The Tao that can't be spoken of!