Teacher's Unions

[Friend of Mara]

I think the media tends to feed hate narratives.

That said, if children today are less educated than children yesterday, the blame is going to fall on teachers. The pandemic is not going to cut it as an excuse - that's like saying the dog ate your homework.

I don't think any educators are attempting to make education worse for children. Sadly that usually falls on the government's budget cuts.

Just as bad. No secret there. :0]

Can't think of a single way they aren't infinitely worse but sure.

I know my paycheck is smaller than it would be because I'm in a (useless) union.

Sorry to hear you have a crony union. But the facts are facts and on average union works make something like 20% more than their counterparts. Averaging out about 10k a year more for union workers compared to non union workers. Exceptions obviously exist.

I've heard from others the same. I don't mind taking home less if it is otherwise beneficial to me. I usually don't see the benefits. Other folks get your money and they get to decide what is beneficial to do with it.

I've only ever heard him say that he would rather not be in a union that is actually in a union. That and some brainwashed old farts that were part of a union in the 70's during a minor depression.

If I made an average of 200 more dollars a week on average with better healthcare and protections from my employer I'd gladly pay the 400 a year in union dues. Hell my first paycheck would pay for that.

So that is another thing I don't understand. There is this conversation where people against unions never say how much money it costs but just say "they take my money" like it isn't 8 dollars a week. I've put that in charity that I never ever saw before. 8 dollars a week is a complete non-issue for virtually any union job.

_______________________________________________________________________________

And I guess this isn't directed at anyone in particular but rather everyone. What is your opinion on a place like Amazon attempting to unionize? Clearly they have worker violations. The working conditions are terrible. Their pay isn't competitive. The hours are long. The quota's are made in a way that long term employment just isn't possible because of the toll on the body. These are working conditions that Europe hasn't seen since WWII. Clearly the largest and most profitable company in the world has all the power in the world to dominate and abuse any individual worker. What recourse other than a union do they have? Quit? Quit their 12 dollar an hour hell position for an 8 dollar part time job at Wendys? Seems much easier to simply fix the problem at the source.

 

[Friend of Mara]

The link I provided isn’t to a union. A professional associate isn’t a union.

Indeed. What is its purpose? Because it doesn't actually have any leverage or power. What can it even accomplish? It doesn't replace the function of a union weather good or bad.

 

[Suave]

Can someone please explain to me why so many people hate teacher's unions? Is it because it is a union? Is it because they are teachers? I am confusion.

The Chicago Teacher's Union advocating remote learning over in person learning is disliked by those parents who would rather have their children in school learning and eating a warm lunch than hungry at home during the day.

 

[Shaul]

Indeed. What is its purpose? Because it doesn't actually have any leverage or power. What can it even accomplish? It doesn't replace the function of a union weather good or bad.

It provides many benefits. It provides services and benefits to its members. Things such as professional development, advocacy, group benefits (i.e. discounts on insurance or products) and job placement services. All the kinds of benefits unions are supposed to provide but do poorly.

Of course it doesn’t do collective bargaining.

A key difference is that its source of power is voluntary association while unions rely on forced association or coercion for their power. That makes professional associations better than unions in the opinion of many.

 

[Friend of Mara]

The Chicago Teacher's Union advocating remote learning over in person learning is disliked by those parents who would rather have their children in school learning and eating a warm lunch than hungry at home during the day.

I'd also prefer to not have to wear a mask at work or risk getting a deadly virus but thems the times we live in.

 

[Friend of Mara]

It provides many benefits. It provides services and benefits to its members. Things such as professional development, advocacy, group benefits (i.e. discounts on insurance or products) and job placement services. All the kinds of benefits unions are supposed to provide but do poorly.

Of course it doesn’t do collective bargaining.

A key difference is that its source of power is voluntary association while unions rely on forced association or coercion for their power. That makes professional associations better than unions in the opinion of many.

So its....a union with less power. The little research I have done on the specific one you cited has soured me to this particular one. Claiming to be free of political bias while in fact running an anti-public education agenda. Specifically attempting to pad charter schools even if those charter schools are a sham.

Now we can talk all day long about what unions should do. Improving unions is a topic I care about dearly and feel unions as a whole in this country are in need of work. They are kneecapped by the government as well as more powerful corporate powers. And then in this vacuum there are imperfect ones as well. What can we do to make these unions better for the people that are part of them?

 

[Suave]

I'd also prefer to not have to wear a mask at work or risk getting a deadly virus but thems the times we live in.

Great news for most everybody, Being infected by the highly contagious Omicron variant of the SARS-Cov2 is 91 percent less likely to kill people in the overall general population than the infection fatality rate of the delta strain of SARS-Cov2. Most anybody now need not be concerned whatsoever about getting gravely ill by the most recent predominate strain of the SARS-Cov2. As II had predicted over a month ago, Omicron has ended the worst of the C.O.V.I.D.-19 pandemic

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.11.22269045v1.full.pdf

 

[Shaul]

So its....a union with less power. The little research I have done on the specific one you cited has soured me to this particular one. Claiming to be free of political bias while in fact running an anti-public education agenda. Specifically attempting to pad charter schools even if those charter schools are a sham.

Now we can talk all day long about what unions should do. Improving unions is a topic I care about dearly and feel unions as a whole in this country are in need of work. They are kneecapped by the government as well as more powerful corporate powers. And then in this vacuum there are imperfect ones as well. What can we do to make these unions better for the people that are part of them?

It’s not a union. Supporting teachers at all schools, public, charter and private doesn’t make the association politically biased. Yes, it advocates for political policy. It never claimed to be free of politics. But that is waaaaay different from unions which are massively political and stridently partisan. When teachers unions give 94-100% of their political contributions to Democrats ( Teachers Unions: Top Contributors to Federal Candidates, Parties, and Outside Groups | OpenSecrets ), it is not a good idea to bring up political bias in others.

There are far, far more “sham” public schools than charter schools. It’s not even close.

Speaking of kneecapping. Should we discuss union thugs and violence?
Many people find it morally unacceptable to associate with those resort to violence. To be asked to do so as a condition of employment is wrong.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Great news for most everybody, Being infected by the highly contagious Omicron variant of the SARS-Cov2 is 91 percent less likely to kill people in the overall general population than the infection fatality rate of the delta strain of SARS-Cov2. Most anybody now need not be concerned whatsoever about getting gravely ill by the most recent predominate strain of the SARS-Cov2. As II had predicted over a month ago, Omicron has ended the worst of the C.O.V.I.D.-19 pandemic

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.11.22269045v1.full.pdf

Is that was the experts said?

 

[Friend of Mara]

It’s not a union. Supporting teachers at all schools, public, charter and private doesn’t make the association politically biased. Yes, it advocates for political policy. It never claimed to be free of politics. But that is waaaaay different from unions which are massively political and stridently partisan. When teachers unions give 94-100% of their political contributions to Democrats ( Teachers Unions: Top Contributors to Federal Candidates, Parties, and Outside Groups | OpenSecrets ), it is not a good idea to bring up political bias in others.

was the glasses to show a "gotchem"? Given the republican track record on funding education every single person within 10 square mile radius better vote democrat.

There are far, far more “sham” public schools than charter schools. It’s not even close.

Unfortunately false. Yes there are many problems with public schools. It begins, ends and is filled in the middle with "funding". But charter schools often are exempt from standard of education which makes then nothing more than glorified daycares. At the end of the day public schools have an obligation to provide education. Even that bare necessity is sometimes not reached with charter schools.

Speaking of kneecapping. Should we discuss union thugs and violence?
Many people find it morally unacceptable to associate with those resort to violence. To be asked to do so as a condition of employment is wrong.

I don't. Violence is as violence needs to be. Everyone is an advocate for violence in some way or another. It seems you are fine with the violence inflicted on employees by employers but not the other way around. Even the language of "thugs" was invented by the powers that be to dehumanize the struggles of the lower class. Though no unions have ever required a member to commit violence if that is what you are implying. Staunchly illegal at best and Ludacris at worst.

Having union requirements is fine. If they don't like it ...what was the saying..."find a different job"?

 

[Suave]

Is that was the experts said?

That according to the CDC.

 

[Nakosis]

So that is another thing I don't understand. There is this conversation where people against unions never say how much money it costs but just say "they take my money" like it isn't 8 dollars a week. I've put that in charity that I never ever saw before. 8 dollars a week is a complete non-issue for virtually any union job.

What if they used that $8 to fund something like the Jan 6th riot?

If the union were apolitical maybe.

And I guess this isn't directed at anyone in particular but rather everyone. What is your opinion on a place like Amazon attempting to unionize? Clearly they have worker violations. The working conditions are terrible. Their pay isn't competitive. The hours are long. The quota's are made in a way that long term employment just isn't possible because of the toll on the body. These are working conditions that Europe hasn't seen since WWII. Clearly the largest and most profitable company in the world has all the power in the world to dominate and abuse any individual worker. What recourse other than a union do they have? Quit? Quit their 12 dollar an hour hell position for an 8 dollar part time job at Wendys? Seems much easier to simply fix the problem at the source.

As long as the focus would remain on supporting the individual employees.

 

[metis]

A lengthy study done here in Michigan found that charter schools do not perform any better than public schools on the average but that they siphon money away from public schools that has really hurt the latter. The Detroit Free Press had a 5-part series on the results from the study, but the paper didn't make recommendations.

Another bad thing about charter schools is that in some areas it has led to more racial segregation and also that the public schools have to take whoever walks in the door whereas charter schools don't. Also, the number one drive of all so many of the charter schools is less about what's good for the students and often more about how much money can be brought in for the investors.

 

[Kooky]

Of course it doesn’t do collective bargaining.

Sounds like those people missed the entire point of having a union.

 

[Ponder This]

I don't think any educators are attempting to make education worse for children. Sadly that usually falls on the government's budget cuts.

Usually.
In this case, however, children are under less effective learning methods known to educators to be less effective. Most teachers actually have to learn basics about learning before they are allowed to teach. They know the methods being used are less effective, but, of course, that is not necessarily their priority.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Usually.
In this case, however, children are under less effective learning methods known to educators to be less effective. Most teachers actually have to learn basics about learning before they are allowed to teach. They know the methods being used are less effective, but, of course, that is not necessarily their priority.

A priority to whom?

What if they used that $8 to fund something like the Jan 6th riot?

If the union were apolitical maybe.

Were there any unions that funded the jan 6 riot?

As long as the focus would remain on supporting the individual employees.

Typically that is what a union is for. I'm more than happy to have that debate in a real setting with employers vs unions. Unions are never perfect but the benefit of having a unions vs zero control seems like a clear and easy answer.

 

[Ponder This]

A priority to whom?

Teachers.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Teachers.

You think that teaching effectively isn't the priority of teachers? Have you ever met teachers?

 

[Ponder This]

You think that teaching effectively isn't the priority of teachers? Have you ever met teachers?

Perhaps you failed to comprehend my post.
Do you disagree that since the pandemic started teaching methods have been less effective?
Do you disagree that teachers placed priority on their own self-interest as advocated by teacher's unions?
Do you disagree that teachers are aware of this?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Perhaps you failed to comprehend my post.
Do you disagree that since the pandemic started teaching methods have been less effective?

The methods were more effective than the alternative.

Do you disagree that teachers placed priority on their own self-interest as advocated by teacher's unions?
Do you disagree that teachers are aware of this?

I disagree that it is done for a selfish reason but rather they saw the two options of "ah lets just super spread during a pandemic that may kill several people vs having to do the next best thing of online learning."

I can't believe we are disrupting school to leave the burning building. Do you really think that leaving the school during a fire is the best way for the kids to learn? Kinda selfish of the teachers to do so.