AlexanderG
Active Member
Here are a few statements I've heard basically verbatim from Christian apologists, clustered in groups to show the tensions in their reasoning that I've noticed. If it's not your particular version of your faith, that's fine and I don't want to strawman anyone, but I have heard all of these from self-identifying Christians. I just thought it would be fun, and I welcome any thoughts or a similar comparison to any tension people feel exists in atheism.
Set One:
"Why can't god just personally reveal himself to everyone, so we can believe he exists just like how we believe that all the other people we've met exist?"
Theist: God can't just reveal himself because that would force you to believe in him and worship him and he doesn't want robots in heaven. You can't test god. You need to have faith.
"I'm an atheist and I don't believe any gods exist."
Theist: God's existence is plain to see. It says so in the bible that you know god exists and you're without excuse. You're suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and you'll rightly deserve hell.
"Also, according to your theology, Satan absolutely knows god exists, and still rejected him and refused to worship him?"
Theist: Correct.
Set Two:
"How do you know your god is good?"
Theist: Because he is the foundation of goodness, and has revealed this about himself and we hold fast to this truth and feel it in our lives. I know that I know that I know god is good.
"God seems incredibly immoral to me, according to my conscience and how I feel about right and wrong deep down. And if I acted like Yaweh, I'd be universally condemned as a monstrous psychopath by everyone else."
Theist: How can you judge god's character according to your flawed human moral compass? Your personal moral feelings are arbitrary, so you have no basis to think god is evil.
Set Three:
"Secular moral systems work very well, and can be refined and improved as we learn more about ourselves and the kinds of societies that thrive."
Theist: Without god, there is no morality. Everything is subjective and it's the law of the jungle and might makes right. Survival of the fittest.
"Why should I follow your god?"
Theist: Because you'll burn in hell if you don't, to glorify him. That's how god set things up. He brought you into this world and he can take you out. Your life belongs to him and all glory and power are his, and whatever he does is good.
Set Four (dialogue):
"Why do you think there are absolute moral values?"
Theist: We intuitively know that some things are always wrong, like torturing babies for fun.
"But didn't god drown all the babies and toddlers in the world, in the Great Flood? He could've just poofed them out of existence in an instant, but intentionally chose to slowly drown them, so they instead struggled and suffocated for a prolonged period of time. Because it pleased him to do it that way?"
Theist: Yes, but that's totally different. In that case it was good because god did it.
Set Five:
"I'm happy letting you live and let live. That's what I'd want for myself. I just don't believe your claims about your god, but you're fine believing what you'd like and living your own life however you want to."
Theist: This country was founded on Christianity. Any weakening of the primacy of Christianity in society is persecution. Why can't atheists be quiet? Stop this hatred.
"I'm just telling you how I'd like you to treat me, like Jesus said. Stop condemning me and telling people I have a bad character. Stop passing laws that take away my rights. Stop publicly demonizing my beliefs or the love that my spouse and I feel for each other. It feels hateful."
Theist: No, you don't know what's best for you. I do. This isn't hatred, it's me showing my Christian love for you.
Set One:
"Why can't god just personally reveal himself to everyone, so we can believe he exists just like how we believe that all the other people we've met exist?"
Theist: God can't just reveal himself because that would force you to believe in him and worship him and he doesn't want robots in heaven. You can't test god. You need to have faith.
"I'm an atheist and I don't believe any gods exist."
Theist: God's existence is plain to see. It says so in the bible that you know god exists and you're without excuse. You're suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and you'll rightly deserve hell.
"Also, according to your theology, Satan absolutely knows god exists, and still rejected him and refused to worship him?"
Theist: Correct.
Set Two:
"How do you know your god is good?"
Theist: Because he is the foundation of goodness, and has revealed this about himself and we hold fast to this truth and feel it in our lives. I know that I know that I know god is good.
"God seems incredibly immoral to me, according to my conscience and how I feel about right and wrong deep down. And if I acted like Yaweh, I'd be universally condemned as a monstrous psychopath by everyone else."
Theist: How can you judge god's character according to your flawed human moral compass? Your personal moral feelings are arbitrary, so you have no basis to think god is evil.
Set Three:
"Secular moral systems work very well, and can be refined and improved as we learn more about ourselves and the kinds of societies that thrive."
Theist: Without god, there is no morality. Everything is subjective and it's the law of the jungle and might makes right. Survival of the fittest.
"Why should I follow your god?"
Theist: Because you'll burn in hell if you don't, to glorify him. That's how god set things up. He brought you into this world and he can take you out. Your life belongs to him and all glory and power are his, and whatever he does is good.
Set Four (dialogue):
"Why do you think there are absolute moral values?"
Theist: We intuitively know that some things are always wrong, like torturing babies for fun.
"But didn't god drown all the babies and toddlers in the world, in the Great Flood? He could've just poofed them out of existence in an instant, but intentionally chose to slowly drown them, so they instead struggled and suffocated for a prolonged period of time. Because it pleased him to do it that way?"
Theist: Yes, but that's totally different. In that case it was good because god did it.
Set Five:
"I'm happy letting you live and let live. That's what I'd want for myself. I just don't believe your claims about your god, but you're fine believing what you'd like and living your own life however you want to."
Theist: This country was founded on Christianity. Any weakening of the primacy of Christianity in society is persecution. Why can't atheists be quiet? Stop this hatred.
"I'm just telling you how I'd like you to treat me, like Jesus said. Stop condemning me and telling people I have a bad character. Stop passing laws that take away my rights. Stop publicly demonizing my beliefs or the love that my spouse and I feel for each other. It feels hateful."
Theist: No, you don't know what's best for you. I do. This isn't hatred, it's me showing my Christian love for you.
