Texas Will Keep Teaching Kids That Moses Influenced the Founding of America

[Duke_Leto]

Moses didn't have any appreciable influence on this country's legal codes; certainly not the Constitution. The Constitution was influenced by the English political system, and some say classical Greek ideas of democracy (though I don't know to what degree this is true). English -- and most European -- law was based on Roman law and indigenous traditions, and Roman law wasn't influenced by Judaic law at all. I don't claim there's no influence of Mosaic law in the Constitution, but, for instance, the Emperor Hadrian probably has more claim to influence than Moses does.

 

[Estro Felino]

Our president has taken many oaths.
How many times has he been married? I can't keep track, but it's lots of times.
It's just what Christians do.
Tom

why do you always have to say mean things?

btw....looking at this picture, it's obvious who the insatiable sex maniac was (and who the victim was) in that relationship.

Spoiler

 

[HonestJoe]

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?

Not necessarily. There’s a difference between preaching a faith and legitimate teaching about religious history. It would depend on exactly how it’s presented.

Whether it’s factually accurate is a different question; something can be Constitutional but still wrong (some Americans seem to struggle with that concept ). Again, it depends on what the actual curriculum and teaching is but it does strike me as odd to refer to Moses specifically when talking about the general cultural Christianity of the people of the time. While Moses is a key figure in that, especially on the “law giving” side, surely others, not least Jesus, are at least as relevant and the question should be more about the contemporary influence on the early Americans rather than the specific Biblical individuals.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

More to the point, beyond it's constitutionality or otherwise, is the simple fact that's it's not a historically supported claim.

 

[Revoltingest]

Come on..your presidents still take oath on the Bible...

And they still use religious oaths in court.
I've actually had to request a secular oath when testifying.
How great is that?
One must either be (or pretend to be) a Christian,
or announce that one is something else.
That's a helluva lot worse than mentioning Moses in school.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

You're right! The Bible had NO bearing on "... under God ..." as the framers were rather thinking about the FSM and the Qu'ran when they framed.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

You're right! The Bible had NO bearing on "... under God ..." as the framers were rather thinking about the FSM and the Qu'ran when they framed.

The principal authors of your constitution were deists or Unitarians, so their "God" was not the Christian or Jewish one.

 

[Shad]

​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

Without seeing the curriculum I have no idea. Moses was an influence upon individual Founding Fathers. Exodus was rehashed as an argument for the Revolution. However how much of that influence was used for post-Revolution legal systems and government is questionable.

 

[sealchan]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

Its especially bad since I believe that the consensus is strongly moving or has moved to Moses having not even ever existed.

 

[sealchan]

I don't see a problem with it. Moses clearly WAS an influence, whether or not one believes that the influence was positive or negative.

Or if he even existed?

 

[Windwalker]

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?
.

It is a violation of the mind and reason from itself. I don't believe Moses survived the cutting room floor for Jefferson's Bible. There is nothing in our Constitution that looks like it favors a Theocracy. On the contrary. To say Moses influenced the framing of our constitution, is like saying the White House should be run by the Pope.

 

[Jainarayan]

Oh? Not all agree that there actually was such a person.

The whole story from reed basket thru red sea
to stone tablrts and 40 yrs in the desert is more
than a little obviously apocryphal.

Homer and Laotze may not have existed.

 

[Sanzbir]

Perhaps, but so was Hitler.

I was taught about Hitler in a social studies class...

Godwinning might not be the best of ideas when the topic is inclusion into social studies curriculum, given how often Hitler and the Nazis are the subjects of social studies lessons.

And don't forget that Moses handed down a lot of screwball laws such as pronouncements about the treatment slaves, Kosher food laws, crazy menstruation laws, and how to make sin offerings, which included animal sacrifice.

Yes, and one such law you cite, the treatment of slaves, was one example of a Law attributed to Moses being used to write and justify United States laws on slavery. They drew their standards on how to treat slaves from the Old Testament rather explicitly.

These are hardly admirable laws.

Admirable does not mean influential. Since the latter is what is at question your personal feelings on the former are unimportant.

But in as much as you apparently agree that Moses was among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents I'm sure you can supply us with these examples of these unique offerings.

Why do only specifically unique offerings matter?? John Locke derived much of his views from other philosophers, but still remains influential in the creation of American law regardless. His ideas being not wholly unique don't ~magickally~ make him not influential to American law. Shall we strike Locke from the lesson plan as well??

If nothing else, these laws in the Bible that you point out were influential in early American law regarding slavery, which is an example I'm sure pleases no one on either side of the debate, but it's a clear example of the influence that Biblical law had on American law none-the-less.

 

[columbus]

Or if he even existed?

Right.
Even if Moses is an entirely fictional character the influence on the Abrahamic religious world is undeniable.

Also, there is a gigantic grey area between completely fictional and exactly as described in Exodus. I expect that there was an inspirational warlord at the heart of the legends.
Tom

 

[Axe Elf]

Or if he even existed?

Correct. That was covered in my second post:

And if it turns out that Moses WASN'T a real person, then like all academic beliefs, that can be adjusted in the future as better information becomes available. Right now, Moses serves at a minimum as a placeholder for "whoever wrote the Torah." SOMEBODY (or somebodies) wrote them, and whoever did write them had an influence on the founding of America (among other things). For lack of better information at this point, we might as well use Moses' name.

 

[Revoltingest]

The principal authors of your constitution were deists or Unitarians, so their "God" was not the Christian or Jewish one.

I say the important thing is to not need to believe
that the authors were heathen, Christian or other.

 

[oldbadger]

That makes absolutely no sense. .

Sure it does.
The laws of Moses are some of the earliest and most brilliant facilitators for a successful community or country. And they certainly did influence the Christians who colonised America and established its doctrines and laws.

If the 106 sacrificial guides and laws are left out, most of the other 507 make good sense. Obviously some can be relaxed in view of modern medicines and technology, but as a guideline to found your country (and mine) they made pretty good sense.

Now just you wait for some folks to cherry-pick ones that they think can bring the whole lot down. Let's see.....

​

 

[oldbadger]

Moses didn't have any appreciable influence on this country's legal codes; certainly not the Constitution. The Constitution was influenced by the English political system.............

.......... which included many of the laws of Moses to buttress our common laws.

Even small legal details came from the OT laws!.... such as creditors not being allowed to seize debtors trade tools, instruments and equipment. The Criminal Law was obviously influenced by them.

 

[Skwim]

If the 106 sacrificial guides and laws are left out, most of the other 507 make good sense. Obviously some can be relaxed in view of modern medicines and technology, but as a guideline to found your country (and mine) they made pretty good sense.

Okay, HERE are all 613 commandments. Aside from those that simply make common sense, and don't need any input from Moses to recognize, which of them are so unique and valuable that we would have missed them had it not been for Moses?

1.
2.
3.
.
.
.
.

.​

 

[loganonekenobi]

The Texas Board of Education has decided to keep the biblical character of Moses in the part of the social studies curriculum that discusses historical figures important to the founding of the United States.

High school students will continue to learn in government class that Moses, along with William Blackstone, John Locke, and Charles de Montesquieu, were among those who influenced the U.S. founding documents. The Republican-led board voted along party lines to keep Moses in the curriculum, with board Chairwoman Donna Bahorich, R-Houston, abstaining although she has indicated her support of retaining Moses in the past.

“In the United States, the most common book in any household in this time period was in fact the Bible, and people who didn’t necessarily believe in religion as such … still had a great knowledge of the Bible. In referencing Moses in the time period, they would have known who Moses was and that Moses was the law-giver,” said board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth.

Other Republican members said that keeping Moses in the curriculum is legal, citing a Supreme Court ruling in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments on the Texas Capitol grounds.​

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible was popular when the United States was founded because we hardly had the kind of religious diversity then that we do now and because the Christianity they practiced at the time was far removed from the sort of right-wing political evangelicalism that makes up this Texas board. Just because a religion is popular doesn’t mean history should be rewritten to accommodate it.

It also doesn’t make sense to call Moses the “law-giver” in a public school curriculum. He is the law-giver for certain religious groups, and even then only in a historical sense, but secular people who have studied history understand that his “laws” were simply rehashed versions of moral codes from his local neighbors.
source
​

So, is citing Moses as having influenced the U.S. founding documents a violation of the First Amendment or not?


.

If they are teaching that the character of Mosis in the bible was influental then yes It might be said because the bible is certainly a powerful influence in the western culture. However, if they are teaching that Mosis was real then they are not taking historical evidence into account. Since it is a history class (i assume) then it would fraudulent. My momma taught me that telling lies was wrong.
(sigh) it's just one more thing that the christians can do to push America closer toward a thoecracy.