• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

That darned trinity.

Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
There have been plenty of arguments against “the trinity”.

But I want to post another thought that hit me today, while reading John.

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


A. If the Spirit and the Lord are two persons, then the Advocate (Spirit) could have come while the Lord was there.


Since the Spirit is the Lord, it’s not necessary for Him to leave as far as the apostles are concerned. The apostles had God with them. But in order to bring God’s kingdom to the entire earth, the Lord had to leave.


(I use many different capitalized words to speak of God. They are synonymous, and do not refer to different entities.)


Accepting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all as God is not a problem. The problem arises when a human idea turns them into three persons.

Much of Christian theology states “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share a single substance or essence, which is expressed in three distinct persons or hypostases.” This is where the doctrine goes off the track for me.


People on both sides of the argument have prooftexted it to death, so there is no reason to do so here. Please.


The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible. The word ‘person’ is not used to describe God in the bible. Yet, some religions insist this doctrine is fundamental to being a Christian, and essential to salvation.



My questions:


  1. How is my logic in ‘A’ above not sound?
  2. How can something not clearly stated in the bible be necessary for salvation? (Yet the Lord was crystal clear regarding what IS necessary)

Debate away, but no prooftexting please. Try using intelligence and reason. God gave us individual brains in addition to the Word.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Gerry said:
There have been plenty of arguments against “the trinity”.
But I want to post another thought that hit me today, while reading John.
John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
A. If the Spirit and the Lord are two persons, then the Advocate (Spirit) could have come while the Lord was there.
Since the Spirit is the Lord, it’s not necessary for Him to leave as far as the apostles are concerned. The apostles had God with them. But in order to bring God’s kingdom to the entire earth, the Lord had to leave.
(I use many different capitalized words to speak of God. They are synonymous, and do not refer to different entities.)
Accepting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all as God is not a problem. The problem arises when a human idea turns them into three persons.
Much of Christian theology states “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share a single substance or essence, which is expressed in three distinct persons or hypostases.” This is where the doctrine goes off the track for me.
People on both sides of the argument have prooftexted it to death, so there is no reason to do so here. Please.
The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible. The word ‘person’ is not used to describe God in the bible. Yet, some religions insist this doctrine is fundamental to being a Christian, and essential to salvation.
My questions:
  1. How is my logic in ‘A’ above not sound?
  2. How can something not clearly stated in the bible be necessary for salvation? (Yet the Lord was crystal clear regarding what IS necessary)
Debate away, but no prooftexting please. Try using intelligence and reason. God gave us individual brains in addition to the Word.
Click to expand...

Doesn't reason and intelligence tell that something that is a neuter is Not a person.
God's spirit as found in Scripture is neuter as the word "it", so that ' advocate ' is Not a person.
Sure we have brains in addition to the Word, but shouldn't we also use the Word on which to reason.
Since you used John 16:7 then I think and reason I should be allowed to think and reason on the verses found at Numbers 11:17, 25 where God's spirit is in the neuter word "it".

In the English language we use the word "she" for a car or a ship, yet we know the car or ship remains a neuter "it".

It was Noah Webster who realized the KJV Bible word 'ghost' was Not an apparition, but that God's spirit was an invisible force like the wind, as in energy. Thus Webster wrote, " Whenever words are understood in the sense different from that of the original languages, they do not present to the reader the Word of God. "
 
socharlie

socharlie

Active Member
Gerry said:
There have been plenty of arguments against “the trinity”.

But I want to post another thought that hit me today, while reading John.

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


A. If the Spirit and the Lord are two persons, then the Advocate (Spirit) could have come while the Lord was there.


Since the Spirit is the Lord, it’s not necessary for Him to leave as far as the apostles are concerned. The apostles had God with them. But in order to bring God’s kingdom to the entire earth, the Lord had to leave.


(I use many different capitalized words to speak of God. They are synonymous, and do not refer to different entities.)


Accepting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all as God is not a problem. The problem arises when a human idea turns them into three persons.

Much of Christian theology states “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share a single substance or essence, which is expressed in three distinct persons or hypostases.” This is where the doctrine goes off the track for me.


People on both sides of the argument have prooftexted it to death, so there is no reason to do so here. Please.


The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible. The word ‘person’ is not used to describe God in the bible. Yet, some religions insist this doctrine is fundamental to being a Christian, and essential to salvation.



My questions:


  1. How is my logic in ‘A’ above not sound?
  2. How can something not clearly stated in the bible be necessary for salvation? (Yet the Lord was crystal clear regarding what IS necessary)

Debate away, but no prooftexting please. Try using intelligence and reason. God gave us individual brains in addition to the Word.
Click to expand...
This issue has no importance in God - man relationship, either it true or not. I do not believe it is has any substance I can understand anyway.
 
Hockeycowboy

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Well, I’m adding this to answer your statement:

Gerry said:
Much of Christian theology states “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share a single substance or essence, which is expressed in three distinct persons or hypostases.” This is where the doctrine goes off the track for me.
Click to expand...

Using terms such as “essence”, “substance”, and “nature” (to try and explain it) have their origins with Greek Philosophy, not Biblical Truth.

~~~ Roman Catholic scholar John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899

Note, being a Catholic priest, John McKenzie was a Trinitarian, but he was honest....he refused to twist information to fit his belief.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Gerry said:
The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible. The word ‘person’ is not used to describe God in the bible. Yet, some religions insist this doctrine is fundamental to being a Christian, and essential to salvation.
Click to expand...

Yes... it is a debated issue.

Although Trinity is not a Old English word, the word Godhead is which is defined as:

Definition
  1. a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
  2. spoken of the only and true God, trinity
    1. of Christ
    2. Holy Spirit
    3. the Father
Used three times in the NT.
 
Srivijaya

Srivijaya

Active Member
It seems quite straightforward. If God is supposedly timeless and transcendent then there needs to be some kind of active force aspect (the Holy Spirit). I see this as the equivalent of Shiva & Shakti.

When it comes to the third aspect (the Son) it's said that the spirit became flesh, so that the flesh could become spirit. This is the immanent form. I differ from Christian doctrine in asserting that all sentient beings must be equally sacred, as existence can only have emerged from the one source in any case.

Similar to the Trikaya in Buddhism.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Gerry said:
There have been plenty of arguments against “the trinity”.

But I want to post another thought that hit me today, while reading John.

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


A. If the Spirit and the Lord are two persons, then the Advocate (Spirit) could have come while the Lord was there.


Since the Spirit is the Lord, it’s not necessary for Him to leave as far as the apostles are concerned. The apostles had God with them. But in order to bring God’s kingdom to the entire earth, the Lord had to leave.


(I use many different capitalized words to speak of God. They are synonymous, and do not refer to different entities.)


Accepting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all as God is not a problem. The problem arises when a human idea turns them into three persons.

Much of Christian theology states “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share a single substance or essence, which is expressed in three distinct persons or hypostases.” This is where the doctrine goes off the track for me.


People on both sides of the argument have prooftexted it to death, so there is no reason to do so here. Please.


The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible. The word ‘person’ is not used to describe God in the bible. Yet, some religions insist this doctrine is fundamental to being a Christian, and essential to salvation.



My questions:


  1. How is my logic in ‘A’ above not sound?
  2. How can something not clearly stated in the bible be necessary for salvation? (Yet the Lord was crystal clear regarding what IS necessary)

Debate away, but no prooftexting please. Try using intelligence and reason. God gave us individual brains in addition to the Word.
Click to expand...

1. There could have been other factors which delayed arrival of the advocate.

2. The purpose of the Trinity is to equate Jesus with God. If you want to say Jesus and the advocate were the same person, ok, I guess. This doesn't make Jesus equal to God.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
1. There could have been other factors which delayed arrival of the advocate.

2. The purpose of the Trinity is to equate Jesus with God. If you want to say Jesus and the advocate were the same person, ok, I guess. This doesn't make Jesus equal to God.
Click to expand...
How can Jesus not be equal with God?
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
KenS said:
Yes... it is a debated issue.

Although Trinity is not a Old English word, the word Godhead is which is defined as:

Definition
  1. a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
  2. spoken of the only and true God, trinity
    1. of Christ
    2. Holy Spirit
    3. the Father
Used three times in the NT.
Click to expand...

Merriam Webster

Definition of godhead
1: divine nature or essence
2capitalized
a : god 1
b : the nature of God especially as existing in three persons —used with the

Used zero times in the original manuscripts.

I checked 11 translations, and found godhead in the kjv only. The appropriate meaning was found in the others. The kjv was written by trinitarians (church of England scholars); hardly unbiased.
America was settled by people escaping that particular church.
It’s time to free ourselves from all religious deceptions of the past.
imo.
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
What I was taught was that The Trinity is three distinct essences of one God. The Father is the Godhead. The Son is the personhood of God, and The Spirit is the grace and love of God.

So if I was praying to the Father I'd be seeking judgment.
If I prayed to the Son, I'd be seeking mercy, relationship, and grace.
And the Spirit is unsurpassing love.

They are one, and in perfect agreeance.

Now I'm not christian, but if I believed that this God existed, I certainly wouldn't mess with that God.

In Genesis Chapter 1 verse 26:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So we are created in God's image and likeness. And when God says our image, and likeness, God is communing with His own self, three essences.

Some people say that we are created three things, of one being or body: heart, mind, and will. Likening the will to the Father, the mind unto The Son, and the heart unto the Spirit.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Gerry said:
Merriam Webster

Definition of godhead
1: divine nature or essence
2capitalized
a : god 1
b : the nature of God especially as existing in three persons —used with the

Used zero times in the original manuscripts.

I checked 11 translations, and found godhead in the kjv only. The appropriate meaning was found in the others. The kjv was written by trinitarians (church of England scholars); hardly unbiased.
America was settled by people escaping that particular church.
It’s time to free ourselves from all religious deceptions of the past.
imo.
Click to expand...

I would prefer the original greek than the updated, and ever changing Webster.

9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, ASV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Webster
9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; Darby
9 For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Millenium bible

how many did you want?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Gerry said:
There have been plenty of arguments against “the trinity”.
But I want to post another thought that hit me today, while reading John.

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

A. If the Spirit and the Lord are two persons, then the Advocate (Spirit) could have come while the Lord was there.

Since the Spirit is the Lord, it’s not necessary for Him to leave as far as the apostles are concerned. The apostles had God with them. But in order to bring God’s kingdom to the entire earth, the Lord had to leave.
Click to expand...
I believe that in John 16:7 this was Jesus saying He has to go away (leave the earth and go to heaven) so He can send the Advocate from heaven.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Advocate and the Comforter were both the Holy Spirit (the Bounty of God) that was sent by God the Father to Jesus the Son.

Jesus brought the Holy Spirit (the Bounty of God) to humanity which is why He can be called the Comforter. Jesus prayed to the Father to send another Comforter, another man who would teach all things. I know Christians believe the Holy Spirit lives inside of them but a disembodied Holy Spirit cannot teach or bring anything to remembrance; only a man can do that.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I know Christians believe the Holy Spirit lives inside of them but it makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do what is in John 16:8-15. Only a man could do those things. I am just using intelligence and reason. As you said, God gave us individual brains in addition to the Word. :)

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

That means that we would not see the man Jesus again on earth because He went to the Father in heaven, but in a little while we would see Him again (His Spirit) in another Comforter that the Father would send.

That verse is congruent with the following verses wherein Jesus said that His work was finished here on earth:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Srivijaya said:
It seems quite straightforward. If God is supposedly timeless and transcendent then there needs to be some kind of active force aspect (the Holy Spirit). I see this as the equivalent of Shiva & Shakti.
When it comes to the third aspect (the Son) it's said that the spirit became flesh, so that the flesh could become spirit. This is the immanent form. I differ from Christian doctrine in asserting that all sentient beings must be equally sacred, as existence can only have emerged from the one source in any case.
Similar to the Trikaya in Buddhism.
Click to expand...

In the English language the word ' spirit ' has different meanings.
For example:
Football spirit created by pep rallies.
A high-spirited horse as in being a very lively animal.
Angels in the Bible are spirit persons, and referred to as angels although they remain as spirit persons.

I think Psalms 104:30 shows us the ' kind of active force aspect of God's holy spirit ' because when God sends forth His spirit things are created, in other words, power comes from God.
Psalms 33:6 connects that 'by the word of God the heavens were made' ....... So, by the spirit of His mouth (His word), by His 'powerful' breath, things were made. So, the heavens were put in order by God's word.
That caused what is seen by us to came into existence from what is unseen, what is Not visible. - Hebrews 11:3
Our words are invisible, but God's invisible words, His spirit, has a powerful effect.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Gerry said:
How can Jesus not be equal with God?
Click to expand...

God is from everlasting to everlasting as per Psalms 90:2, meaning God can Not die. Jesus died.
Jesus did Not resurrect himself, but his forever-living God resurrected the dead Jesus.
- Acts of the Apostles 2:24; 2:27; 2:31-32; 3:15; 5:30; Colossians 2:12; Romans 10:12
The resurrected-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
Plus, Jesus said that his Father is greater than Jesus is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top