The 10 compared to the 7.

[1213]

You can disagree all you want, but it makes you look unaware and naive. Indeed there are actually a lot of people who hate themselves. It's a basic fact of life.

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Hmmm... ...so, would they be ok, if something would be done to them against their will?

 

[exchemist]

Let's compare the Biblical 10 Commandments to the Satanic Temple's Seven Fundamental Tenets. People will often claim the 10 Commandments from the Bible are morally superior and claim them as foundational. But is that the case?
The 10 Commandments.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall make no idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

6, 8 and 9 are given. If you have to be told to not lie, steal and kill then you have some serious problems. And they're basically universal laws anyways. Those aren't radical, noteworthy, ground breaking or worth bragging about.
The rest? How does that help make us better people? 1, 2, 3 and 4 don't and exist only to serve and satisfy Jehovah's ego. You can cut them all out and morally and ethically not be any better or worse for it. But as you can be a good person without they are unnecessary.q
5 is entirely backwards as respect is to be earned amd a blanket "honor your parents (same goes for elders)" has excused , justified and normalized far too much abuse. Thou shalt be someone your child is proud to have as a parent would have been vastly superior.
9 isn't necessarily a problem. If someone is in an open/polygamist then just mind your own damn business. If not, cheating on your partner isn't good, but the Bible doesn't specify that. George Carlin said it better with "thou shalt be faithful and honest to thy provider if thy nookie."
10, yeah that's not really bad until it becomes greed and destructive. It gets us places, it gets things done, helps add meaning to our lives and let's us grow and develop. What is also does, and why it belongs with the first four, is it exists to serve those who wrote it and enforce it. Don't desire what we have because you'll make god mad. Don't blame us for telling you not to upset the status quo, it's god who made it a very special important rule.

Now let's look at the Seven Fundamental Tenets frim the Satanic Temple.
I One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

Compassion, empathy, justice, freedom and bodily autonomy? These don't even exist in the 10 but go a long way in making the world a better place.
Letting our best method of objectively gathering information about the world and universe around us? Especially today when we can si easily gather a world of information at our fingertips why shouldn't this be a guiding principle?
VI is something the Bible won't see until Jesus, so it's clearly not part of the 10.
VII Not only summarizes the first ones, it goes a step further by saying let the spirit of compassion, wisdom and justice prevail over the written word. That goes against much of Christianity, especially American Evangelicism.

How exactly are the even that good? Especially in regards to American amd Constitutional values why shouldn't we instead put the Seven Fundamental Tenets in courthouses?

These seven tenets will have been dreamt up recently by a bunch of people steeped in two thousand years of Judao-Chrstian tradition.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

These seven tenets will have been dreamt up recently by a bunch of people steeped in two thousand years of Judao-Chrstian tradition.

Considering the Satanist Temple is still kind of new in the long run that statement is a great big obvious given, especially as TST was formed as a response against conservative Christianity in politics.
Amd that's where this debate comes in. The 10, despite many claims is actually useless and needless for morality amd really does nothing but enforce the rule of priests by creating rules to coerce a greater since of fidelity towards "god" than their own spouse (you can get a different spouse under certain circumstances, it's death to stray and know a different god).
But the 7 gives us a guide that actually is useful for morality and ethics, such as with considerations towards rights, liberties, bodily autonomy, mistakes that are mistakes and not egregious offenses against a deity, and letting what is good amd decent prevail over the written and spoken word just aren't Christian values.

 

[PureX]

I thought this thread was going to be about bowling.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hmmm... ...so, would they be ok, if something would be done to them against their will?

Common, dude. I never even implied such a thing. I'm just pointing out one if the major flaws with "as you love yourself." That assumes you didn't grow up abused enough to grow up in survival mode (those are usually the sorts who hate themselves).

 

[1213]

Common, dude. I never even implied such a thing. ...

But it is one example of what it in practice means.

 

[Stonetree]

I just showed how the 10 doesn't do that. If any thing we're better off just ditching it and replacing it with something better such as the Seven Fundamental Tenets.

Please explain what 'Freedom to Offend" means?

 

[PearlSeeker]

That goes against much of Christianity /... /

Really? Let's see.

Tenet I is practically the same as the golden rule and other examples:

"... clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience." (Colossians 3:12)

II - justice above the law. This is actually one of the main themes of NT (spirit Vs. letter of the law).

Letter and spirit of the law - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

III - yes, this one is against Christianity, which teaches that you have to treat your body like a God’s temple and use it to worship God with your life.

IV - "including the freedom to offend"? Yup. Not in Christianity.

V - it depends on the branch of Christianity - literal vs. allegorical interpretation of the Bible. I had no problems with science in the Catholic Church.

VI - restitution. Nothing against Christianity.

Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” (Luke 19:8)

VII - see II

BTW The name of the organization is silly. Why do they call themselves TST? If you are against some bad things in a particular Christian group, do you have to choose an offensive and negative name? What's Satan got to do with compassion? It's like being against Zionism and naming yourself the Hitler Nazi Temple. Why not choose a positive name instead?

 

[Stonetree]

@PearlSeeker , after asking about 'freedom to offend I read about some old English laws that made it an offense to offend another citizen. The offended party or a witness could report an insult, perhaps, or some other small offense to a Constable so that he might take action against the perpetrator. This law proved to be a nuisance and was abandoned, I believe......'Freedom to Offend' may have originated at the time of these laws.(just a guess).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Let's see.

Tenet I is practically the same as the golden rule and other examples:

"... clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience." (Colossians 3:12)

Paul also tells slaves to serve well, especially well if they havr a Christian master. He, and much if the rest of tye Bible, tells us women are beneath men, with Paul blaming women for sin and saying you can't trust them. He also carries on with the rules and policies amd thou shalt nots of the OT. And the OT, where the 10 come from, is violent and bloodthirsty.

II - justice above the law. This is actually one of the main themes of NT (spirit Vs. letter of the law).

When II says it should prevail above the law, that includes Biblical law. It includes the spirit if the law. It includes the institutions that tell us what the law is.

III - yes, this one is against Christianity, which teaches that you have to treat your body like a God’s temple and use it to worship God with your life.

Which, going back to 1, is why the 10 aren't even compatible with Constitutional Law.

IV - "including the freedom to offend"? Yup. Not in Christianity.

Nor is respecting the freedoms of others. It's another missed opportunity for the Bible to have been truly groundbreaking, but the declaration that all are free and the free class of citizens should not be the only one entitled to rights.

V - it depends on the branch of Christianity - literal vs. allegorical interpretation of the Bible. I had no problems with science in the Catholic Church.

They have no problems with it today. The Bible gives its account for how things are, and even the Catholic Church used to be rigidly into that perspective.

VI - restitution. Nothing against Christianity.

Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” (Luke 19:8)

Except Christianity add some unnecessary middlemen and burdens to it. VI is also a farcry from the eternal damnation the Bible claims we all deserve.

VII - see II

BTW The name of the organization is silly. Why do they call themselves TST? If you are against some bad things in a particular Christian group, do you have to choose an offensive and negative name? What's Satan got to do with compassion? It's like being against Zionism and naming yourself the Hitler Nazi Temple. Why not choose a positive name instead?

Satan is a positive name. Amd it's called sharing society. The Bible wants me and most my friends dead. Why do people have to believe in something so negative and offensive? But I usually keep such things to myself. That's how a society works, amd it does require great deals of tolerance amd acceptance. It's called get over yourself and stay on topic.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Paul also tells slaves to serve well, especially well if they havr a Christian master. He, and much if the rest of tye Bible, tells us women are beneath men, with Paul blaming women for sin and saying you can't trust them. He also carries on with the rules and policies amd thou shalt nots of the OT. And the OT, where the 10 come from, is violent and bloodthirsty.

I agree with the last point but for Christians NT is the peak of revelation (not OT).

I don't agree with your interpretation of Pauline letters. He was very progressive for his time... Maybe a topic for another thread...

When II says it should prevail above the law, that includes Biblical law. It includes the spirit if the law. It includes the institutions that tell us what the law is.

Justice and love IS the spirit of the law. It's the same thing. Your assertion is like saying Mount Everest is above the peak of Himalaya.

Which, going back to 1, is why the 10 aren't even compatible with Constitutional Law.

What the 10 have to do with the body as God’s temple?

Nor is respecting the freedoms of others. It's another missed opportunity for the Bible to have been truly groundbreaking, but the declaration that all are free and the free class of citizens should not be the only one entitled to rights.

Declaration of equality:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)

They have no problems with it today.

I'm glad we agree.

Except Christianity add some unnecessary middlemen and burdens to it. VI is also a farcry from the eternal damnation the Bible claims we all deserve.

What middlemen? The man repented and said: "if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."

Satan is a positive name. Amd it's called sharing society. The Bible wants me and most my friends dead. Why do people have to believe in something so negative and offensive? But I usually keep such things to myself. That's how a society works, amd it does require great deals of tolerance amd acceptance. It's called get over yourself and stay on topic.

BTW. I don't believe in the Bible either. How does it want you dead?

What does "amd" stand for? I'm not familiar with this abbreviation.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Satan is a positive name.

Why do you think so? Satan represents all that is evil. How can this be positive?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree with the last point but for Christians NT is the peak of revelation (not OT).

I don't agree with your interpretation of Pauline letters. He was very progressive for his time... Maybe a topic for another thread...

Paul wrote women are to be beneath men and he would not suffer a woman usurping authority over men.
Amd bringing up Paul and Jesus is going off topic as the part of the Bible being discussed is the 10 Commandments. But it helps demonstrate my point that despite claims that the 10 are so great and foundational that even Christians can't turn to it for morality and ethics. They have to look elsewhere as we have seen here. That's because the 10 doesn't serve us or benefit us, it only benefits the god who of the start says you can't have other gods but me.

Justice and love IS the spirit of the law. It's the same thing. Your assertion is like saying Mount Everest is above the peak of Himalaya.

We are talking about very different things. You are claiming a law that talks **** about people having sex outside of marriage and revellers. I am talking of a spirit of justice that is live and let live, no harm no foul, but where injury is made and rights are violated even the laws if your god can take a back seat.
The Bible, on the other hand, is stuffed full of victimless crimes.

What the 10 have to do with the body as God’s temple?

It's the idea that the 7 is superior to the 10. And you are rhe one who brought up the body beint the temple.

Declaration of equality:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)

That's nit really freedom or equality. It says that is strictly in Christ. There is still slave and master, king and subject, judge and condemned, and all manner if inequalities enforced and promoted throughout the Bible.

I'm glad we agree.

No, we dont. The Catholic church used to be just as dumb and anti-science as today's American Evangelicals. That's because the Bible provides for a very unscientific view of the world and harsh warnings against those who would deviate from what the Bible teaches.

What middlemen? The man repented and said: "if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."

Jesus is the primary middleman, along with Jehovah who takes it upom himself to get offended when he isn't even involved.

BTW. I don't believe in the Bible either. How does it want you dead?

Apostacy, rebelliousness, sex I've had, Jesus even goes as far as to say I am irredeemable (or perhaps still going to Heaven...he wasn't too clear on this).

What does "amd" stand for? I'm not familiar with this abbreviation.

If you pay attention you'll notice Ms and Ns get mixed up occasionally. Don't put much into it. People make mistakes and mostly it's not hard to mentally correct them.

Why do you think so? Satan represents all that is evil. How can this be positive?

Satan is a Hebrew verb that means to oppose/be an adversary of. Without that life gets pretty dull, boring and meaningless.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Why do you think so? Satan represents all that is evil. How can this be positive?

Adding a bit of nuance on top of @Shadow Wolf 's reply, a very old and common belief among Jewish people is that there is no such thing as fallen angels. Satan, the angel, could no more rebel than your hand or foot, not being autonomous creatures but extensions of the will and power of the divine.

Satan therefore was doing what God willed, testing and challenging mankind to choose good behavior over bad behavior. The only embodiment of evil is the evil choices we make, and Satan represents a call to thoughtful personal responsibility.

For both those Jews and Satanists, what Christians present as Satan just isn't relevent, but for different reasons.

The biggest difference is to most Satanists I know, Satan represents self-determination and self-actualization. To consider for yourself rather than take on authority what good or bad behavior is.

In that sense I respect them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

For both those Jews and Satanists, what Christians present as Satan just isn't relevent, but for different reasons.

The Christian Satan doesn't even appear until the Book of Matthew, when he tempted Christ. And this character is notably different from the OT character. It's like one of Game of Thrones notably bad recastings that changed the character for the worst.

 

[PearlSeeker]

... But it helps demonstrate my point that despite claims that the 10 are so great and foundational that even Christians can't turn to it for morality and ethics. They have to look elsewhere as we have seen here.

Yes. The 10 are not most fundamental to Christians. The 2 greatest commandmentd are about love.

It's
Jesus is the primary middleman, along with Jehovah who takes it upom himself to get offended when he isn't even involved.

Yes, it's a strange doctrine...

Apostacy, rebelliousness, sex I've had, Jesus even goes as far as to say I am irredeemable (or perhaps still going to Heaven...he wasn't too clear on this).

We're all sinners. Gospels aren't judgmental. Right the opposite. Jesus was often blamed for hanging out with sinners...

If you pay attention you'll notice Ms and Ns get mixed up occasionally. Don't put much into it. People make mistakes and mostly it's not hard to mentally correct them.

OK. No problem. I just asked because English is not my language...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes. The 10 are not most fundamental to Christians. The 2 greatest commandmentd are about love.

Ergo it is erroneous to claim them as foundations of law, especially American Constitutional Law where find the Constitution's 10 (the Bill of Rights) is incompatible with Jehovah's 10.

We're all sinners.

Only those who accept the chains and shackles of sin are sinners. Myself, I haven't been a sinner in over 20 years.

Gospels aren't judgmental.

They're some of the most judgemental books I have read.

Jesus was often blamed for hanging out with sinners...

So? According to your beliefs thats no biggie and nothing impressive as you believe everyone is a sinner. That just means he hung out with people, which is what people tend to do.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes. The 10 are not most fundamental to Christians. The 2 greatest commandmentd are about love.

Every Jewish rabbi teaches that all the 613 commandments can be grouped into one of two categories: loving God and loving neighbor. Jesus was not being original here.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Satan is a Hebrew verb that means to oppose/be an adversary of. Without that life gets pretty dull, boring and meaningless.

Satan therefore was doing what God willed, testing and challenging mankind to choose good behavior over bad behavior. The only embodiment of evil is the evil choices we make, and Satan represents a call to thoughtful personal responsibility.

For both those Jews and Satanists, what Christians present as Satan just isn't relevent, but for different reasons.

That's true. Satan in the Book of Job is somewhat different than in NT.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's true. Satan in the Book of Job is somewhat different than in NT.

And don't forget that a great many religious Jews consider Job to be literature, not history, and see Satan as a literary device. For many religious Jews, Satan is not an actual literal entity, but a metaphor for our Yetzer Hara (evil inclination).