The 144,000 and the "Rapture" (Christians only)

[YoursTrue]

So you're saying that heaven and god suffer the same flaws, limitations, failings, weaknesses,etc. as we mere mortals and our societies? ...and I that I'm suppose to worship this strugglin' lil' fella?

I think you have the wrong notion. But in any case, no matter what I think about your ideas, I can regularly, routinely, and rightly say you're not God and neither am I, since you cannot change the world. My father used to tell me that before I believed in God, he was not a particularly devout man but now I understand it better. (Have a good evening.)

 

[YoursTrue]

So you're saying that heaven and god suffer the same flaws, limitations, failings, weaknesses,etc. as we mere mortals and our societies? ...and I that I'm suppose to worship this strugglin' lil' fella?

And again, I'm saying that the "hierarchal order" is that if you break the speed limit, you may get a ticket based on the "heirarchal order." You also may not get into a store after it closes, even if you need something, based on the "hierarchal order."
And once again -- have a good night.

Which reminds me -- based on the hierarchal order, it gets dark at night in most parts of the world. Nothing you can do to stop it.

 

[LightofTruth]

Thanks for bringing out that point about Paul not knowing sin except for the Law. Romans 7:7 - "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
And different religions calling themselves Christian have different ideas as to what sin is. Paul is right. The idea of adultery is clearly wrong as outlined in the Bible. So is stealing, And lying. But -- covet? That is something no man can really see into another. But Paul said he would not have known sin if the law did not describe it. (interesting.)

Coveting or desiring is the whole problem with our fleshy nature. It's the very heart or root of all evil. And no one can see it in another, except God:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is desperately sick: who can know it? Jer 17:9

" I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

There is nothing more sick then man's deceitful heart. Not even the spurious devil of Christianity

 

[YoursTrue]

Why would I want or need to? Besides, we can and do create light in the darkness.

lol -- ok. Have a good night, or day, maybe you can create darkness too, change seasons around and reduce the global warming. And here I'm not even a pessimist!
It's been fun talking to you. Bye for now.

 

[YoursTrue]

Coveting or desiring is the whole problem with our fleshy nature. It's the very heart or root of all evil. And no one can see it in another, except God:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is desperately sick: who can know it? Jer 17:9

" I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

There is nothing more sick then man's deceitful heart. Not even the spurious devil of Christianity

Not sure what you mean by that, but -- it's getting late -- my body is telling me I need to go to sleep. It exercises power over me. (Have a good night.)

 

[LightofTruth]

Not sure what you mean by that, but -- it's getting late -- my body is telling me I need to go to sleep. It exercises power over me. (Have a good night.)

Sleep tight.

 

[YoursTrue]

I can create darkness by closing my curtains, and we as a society can reduce global warming.

No, you ain't. I mean you, as a society, cannot -- are not going to -- do it. First you'd have to get rid of all the agents that cause the warming. And that is not going to happen. By mankind. It is not going to happen.

 

[Deeje]

Reduce, not eliminate all.

I get the impression that you feel human accomplishments humiliate a do-nothimg god?

If only you knew what you were talking about .....human accomplishments are what God purposed for mankind all along, but what have humans, alienated from their Creator, actually accomplished to this point?

The death of planet Earth is looming.....If we do not take care of Planet A...there is no Planet B, though I know that the ones who see where we are going, are desperately searching for one. And when they find it, what do you think they'll do with it?

Humans are too selfish to think about the long term consequences of their actions.....those are left to the succeeding generations. I am grateful that I do not have to rely on flawed humanity to ensure my future.

God is giving the human race..."enough rope".......is it enough yet?

 

[Deeje]

The prophecy of Revelation has not taken place yet. None of it.

When the door of heaven was opened, John saw four living creatures and elders around the throne of God. This, John says, happens on the Lord's day. The Lord's day is the day of the Lord when he will come to execute his judgments.

We believe that the "Lord's day" began when Jesus was installed as King of God's Kingdom in 1914. His first act was to evict satan from heaven and confine him and his hordes to the vicinity of the earth. He gets one last shot at humanity before Jesus throws him into an abyss of inactivity for 1,000 years....and he is angry, knowing he has only a short time left.
Jesus' "parousia" (his presence) has begun and he has already resurrected his anointed co-rulers ready to begin the Kingdom's rule over all the world, once the judgment has taken place, the sheep will be granted life and the goats are dispatched......but his "coming" as judge of all the earth is yet in the near future.

During the thousand years of the Kingdom's rule, the general resurrection of the dead will begin and the "unrighteous" will be educated educated in Jehovah's ways, and then when all sin has been removed, there is a final time where satan is permitted to test out those who had never been tested before. (Revelation 20:1-3) He won't get far. (Revelation 20:7-9)

Those who pass that final test will be granted everlasting life.....but in mortal flesh, just as Adam was.
Only those destined for heaven will gain immortal life in heaven. Those resurrected on earth gain everlasting life right here as God first intended.

Those four living creatures and elders (the faithful ones made immortal, saints) are the ones who are to be raised from the dead or translated from among the living. And they are to come with Christ to execute God's judgment upon His people and the nations.

Revelation 4:4-11 is a vision and those four living creatures have been attendant on God's throne for longer than humans have been in existence. Ezekiel saw them too....they are angels in a specific role as attendants upon Jehovah's throne. (Ezekiel 1:5-11) These are not the 144,000 because they were not yet chosen or in existence when Ezekiel saw them.

The "saints" are the chosen ones who have already been raised since 1914 and soon to be joined by the remaining ones still left on earth.

 

[Deeje]

Jude says:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The corruption introduced by Satan in the garden of Eden quickly led to the spread of wickedness among Adam’s descendants. In such a world, Enoch was a prophet of Jehovah whose powerful inspired words resonate even today. Jude reports that Enoch prophesied: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.” (Jude 14, 15) Those words will find their final fulfillment at Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) Still, we can be sure that even in Enoch’s day, there were many “ungodly sinners” who heard Enoch’s prophecy with annoyance. So to preserve his life, Jehovah took the prophet out of their reach!

" It shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plough-shares, and their spears into pruning-hooks : nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isa 2

Yes, its a good way to identify genuine Christians in these last days....they have put down their weapons and followed Christ, refusing to hate even their enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44)

"...the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints(holy ones) with thee. " Zec 14:5

Deuteronomy 33:2...
“Jehovah—from Siʹnai he came,
And he shone upon them from Seʹir.

He shone forth in glory from the mountainous region of Paʹran,
And with him were holy myriads,
At his right hand his warriors."

These holy myriads were angels.

Daniel 7:10 records Daniel's vision of the holy court in heaven...
"A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened."
This too is angels in the service of Jehovah. This was 500 years before Christ came to the earth.

 

[Deeje]

Paul says:

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor 6:3

Yes the anointed ones who rule with Christ receive a great reward.....immortality. This is something angels and humans do not have. Jesus did not have it either or else he could not have come to earth to die for mankind. You cannot kill an immortal.

This is what i think is going to happen.

What makes you think so? And do you have others who share your views?
"I think" was never a good way to evaluate scripture. God has always revealed his truth to a collective....not to individuals. Can you count the number of individuals just on RF who "think" they have the truth when they all disagree? Who is God leading....all or none?

So there is going to be an invisible rule of Christ with his immortal angelic like saints and also a visible rule of the mortal 144,000 to restore the kingdom on earth.

The invisible rule of Christ has already begun. His anointed co-rulers are already in heaven awaiting the final judgment when the remaining ones are transformed to join Christ in the spirit realm. Then the end will come after the greatest tribulation in mankind's history.

So the serpent represents man's inclination to take what is forbidden of him. The serpent(desire of the flesh) covets. Therefore, the serpent is the desire of the flesh as it opposes the law of God. IN that way, man knows what is sin. When Adam allowed his desire for the fruit to rule over him he ate the fruit. And thereby disobeyed the law of God and death followed. Adam had coveted(desired) the fruit before the actual transgression.

I cannot agree with this. The serpent is identified in Revelation as "that old serpent" who misled the first humans in Eden. He is still very active, having been confined to the earth, he is wreaking havoc all over the world as we speak.

it is therefore sin that has the power of death.

Sin causes death.....it has from mankind's beginnings.

The devil was destroyed

"Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil," Heb 2:14

This is what the first Bible prophesy was all about (Genesis 3:15)....Jesus dealing the serpent a head wound from which he would not recover, but only after a painful "heel" wound that temporarily disabled him but did no lasting damage. That blow on the head has not yet been dealt. His final blow does not come until the end of the thousand year reign of the Kingdom when he is released to test mankind one last time...only then is he cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Deeje]

You mean alienated from the social norms and superstitions of ancient, primitive savages, which have nothing to do with any actual god.

No...

BTW this is a "Christians Only" thread...why are you here?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well first of all...you have it all wrong...
As most people do..,that people are not being taught in the churches what exactly does happens at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ..

What did disciple Paul written what happens to people when Jesus Christ returns ?
Paul written in
1 Corinthians 15:51-52,
51--"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52--"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

Therefore at Jesus Christ return..
Everyone and this means everyone shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the spirit...to meet Jesus Christ in the spirit to see him as he is in the spirit.

Therefore the 144,000 and the great Multitude are in the spirit and not of flesh and blood...
The other question is?

Who is it that comes first?
Is it Jesus Christ or Satan ?

A lot of people are being taught in the churches that Satan has been cast out of heaven...
In what book and chapter and verses where that is written in the Bible..

Satan has not been as of yet..Been cast of heaven...not until the
6 seal 6 trumpet 6 vial..
Which equals 666..
Revelation 6:12.

Jesus Christ comes at the
7 seal 7 trumpet 7 vial..
Which equals 777.
Revelation 11:15 - 19.

The world is of now are in the
5 seal 5 trumpet 5 vial..

What a lot of people are not being taught and don't know there are two tribulations.

There is the tribulation of Satan when he comes and there the tribulation of Jesus Christ..
The Lord Jesus Christ speaking, saying in Mark 13:24--" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light"

If you notice ( After that tribulation)
By this Jesus Christ is revealing that there's two tribulations..
The tribulation of Satan and the tribulation of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed this in his book of Revelation 6:12-17.
This being the first tribulation of Satan when he is finally cast out of heaven..

But anyway the point being made is..
That at the coming of Christ Jesus everyone in an instant are changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the Spirit.

This all happens after the tribulation has ended then Jesus Christ returns and not until after the tribulation has ended..

The Lord Jesus Christ speaking, saying in Matthew 24:29-30,
29--"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
Matthew 24:13--"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

This being...He that shall endure unto the end of the tribulation, the same shall be saved.

 

[Father Heathen]

No...

BTW this is a "Christians Only" thread...why are you here?

I didn't realize. My apologies. I went back and deleted what I could. Have a good day.

 

[metis]

Why don't you ask your priest?

I don't need to as I delve into theology books from actual theologians, including those in other faiths.

 

[metis]

Satan has not been as of yet..Been cast of heaven...not until the
6 seal 6 trumpet 6 vial..
Which equals 666..
Revelation 6:12.

Actually "666", and its variation "616", almost without much doubt a reference to Caesar Nero ["Caesar god" I believe is what the latter interpretation if my memory is correct) when the letters of his name are converted into numbers used in the Hebrew tradition, and Nero fit the description quite well.

"Revelation" was written for the people living in the latter half of the 1st century, basically telling the flock to keep the faith and all will ultimately turn out well for you in spite of heavy persecution from Nero and his successors. And we know that this was indeed the message that many in the 2nd century Church interpreted it as being.

 

[LightofTruth]

This is what the first Bible prophesy was all about (Genesis 3:15)....Jesus dealing the serpent a head wound from which he would not recover, but only after a painful "heel" wound that temporarily disabled him but did no lasting damage. That blow has not yet been dealt. His final blow does not come until the end of the thousand year reign of the Kingdom when he is released to test mankind one last time...only then is he cast into the lake of fire.

By Jesus' death the serpent flesh comes to nothing because it was crucified on the cross. That means that the natural flesh of man which is of the dust was put to death. The body that Jesus was raised with "dies no more".

The flesh of the natural man has been condemned to death by Adam's sin. And when that same natural earthy flesh was put to death by the death of Jesus the devil was destroyed.
The flesh of immortal men is NOT the same flesh as the natural man. The difference is that one flesh is mortal and the other is not.

Paul call the mortal flesh "the natural man" of the earth. And so it is. But the man from heaven (Jesus, after his resurrection) has a spiritual body. And that body never dies because it never sins. So they are two completely different natures.

Now, it is precisely the nature of the natural man made from the earth to be sinful because it is that nature which has desires which drag him to sin And that sin is what has brought death to everyone(James 1)

Have you ever heard it said that Jesus' death was the death of death? It was.

So, if "he"(the flesh personified) is what caused death, then "he" which caused death was put to death (the striking of his head).
The analogy of Genesis 3:15 is of the seed of the women (Jesus) striking the head of the serpent which would bring him to nothing. He would no longer have the power to keep man in the grave. because Jesus was healed of his wound by being raised from the dead to die no more.

 

[Deeje]

Well first of all...you have it all wrong...

In your opinion, we have it all wrong....just as in our opinion, you have it all wrong....so how do we evaluate this situation? We allow the scriptures to speak for themselves....

I asked you before, who else believes what you believe? If it is only you, and you have no brotherhood who shares your 'opinions', then you do not have it right. There are no 'lone rangers' in Christianity.
Paule wrote at Hebrews 13:17...
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (NASB)

He also said at Hebrews 10:24-25......" and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." (NASB)

With whom are you meeting together to stimulate your faith? Who is there to correct you and to guide you in the teachings of the Christ? If these gatherings are vital to our spiritual welfare, more so now than ever before, with whom are you doing this?

My brotherhood is over 8 million strong in a united global family, who are all taught the same things and who all carry out the important work of preaching the Kingdom, before the end comes. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Can I ask who is keeping 'watch over your soul', if you have no leaders or brotherhood?
Your version of events might sound all well and good to you, but in Christianity, no one is permitted to be their own teacher. There were always appointed 'shepherds' to care for the "sheep" under the guidance of the Fine Shepherd. God would never permit his flock to be without a shepherd and large flocks had more than one.

Jesus appointed a "faithful and wise slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". This is spiritual food and it is a fellow "slave" who provides it. (Matthew 24:45) This is a composite body who oversees the serving of the food "at the proper time to the household of Christ's servants. When Christ returns, he commends and rewards that slave for doing a good job. (Matthew 24:46-47)

What did disciple Paul written what happens to people when Jesus Christ returns ?
Paul written in
1 Corinthians 15:51-52,
51--"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52--"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

That passage of scripture is interesting...

Just before he speaks about the "mystery", he says....
" it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

So Paul differentiates between a body designed for life on earth, and one that can live in the spirit realm. Those chosen for heavenly life, which included all who were chosen by God for that role, will experience that transformation.

But what he says next is vital to our understanding and the timeframe in which it takes place.
"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

Since flesh and blood cannot exist outside of earth's atmosphere, taking humans to heaven meant changing their physical body to a spiritual one.
When does this happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

The resurrection of those who will assist Christ in his Kingdom are not raised until his return. They were to "sleep" until that time. So Christ's return has already taken place and all the features of the "sign" that he gave to indicate that his rulership had begun, have been witnessed since 1914. If the world is now waiting for Christ "manifestation" (a completely separate event to his "parousia") then it makes sense that Jesus will bring the complete number of the 144,000 with him when he executes his judgments. Those instantly transformed at that time will not have to "sleep" in the grave like the faithful ones of the first century.

 

[Deeje]

Therefore at Jesus Christ return..
Everyone and this means everyone shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the spirit...to meet Jesus Christ in the spirit to see him as he is in the spirit.

Not everyone.....only the anointed who have a role in the heavenly kingdom will gain a heavenly resurrection, like their High Priest Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 3:1) This governmental arrangement is implemented to guide the earthly subjects of the Kingdom back into an acceptable relationship with God.....a relationship they lost due to the sin of father Adam. Jesus paid his debt and freed the human race from the ongoing condemnation to sin and death. Now mankind had a hope for the future.....a resurrection to life on this earth the way God intended at the outset.

Revelation 21:2-4...
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

The "holy city new Jerusalem" is seen coming down from heaven, so it is not literal Jerusalem.
By means of this kingdom, those on earth will benefit from God's tabernacle (tent) over them. The benefits described for these ones is for humans, who will now get to live the life that God planned for them all along. We will go back to the conditions of Eden because "the first things have passed away"....like a bad dream, we will leave all the pain, suffering and death associated with life in this world behind, and go back to where we should have been, if Adam had not thrown us all under the bus.

Therefore the 144,000 and the great Multitude are in the spirit and not of flesh and blood...

The 144,00 are the spiritual rulers in the Kingdom....the great crowd are "tribulation survivors" (Revelation 7:13-14).....these then become the nucleus of the "new earth". ( 2 Peter 3:13)...the earthly subjects of the heavenly Kingdom who are very much mortals of flesh and blood....but who can live forever as long as they are obedient to God's reasonable commands. This was the prospect put before A & E.

A lot of people are being taught in the churches that Satan has been cast out of heaven...
In what book and chapter and verses where that is written in the Bible..

Revelation 12:7-12 describes the event.....
"And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

It is when Jesus receives his authority as King that this eviction takes place. The devil and his angels are clearly identified, and the "woe" that was to follow his eviction would be the result of his anger, knowing that his time is almost up. Look at the state of the world....its all happening. His efforts continue to intensify as the countdown goes on.

 

[Deeje]

Satan has not been as of yet..Been cast of heaven...

.....What a lot of people are not being taught and don't know there are two tribulations.

There is the tribulation of Satan when he comes and there the tribulation of Jesus Christ..
The Lord Jesus Christ speaking, saying in Mark 13:24--" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light"

If you notice ( After that tribulation)
By this Jesus Christ is revealing that there's two tribulations..
The tribulation of Satan and the tribulation of Jesus Christ.

You see two tribulations....we see one tribulation where mankind will turn on each other and then we see a victorious Christ meting out judgment on those who treated his father with disrespect and who misrepresented him to the people.

But anyway the point being made is..
That at the coming of Christ Jesus everyone in an instant are changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the Spirit.

This all happens after the tribulation has ended then Jesus Christ returns and not until after the tribulation has ended..

The Lord Jesus Christ speaking, saying in Matthew 24:29-30,
29--"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
Matthew 24:13--"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

This being...He that shall endure unto the end of the tribulation, the same shall be saved.

As you can see, we interpret that very differently to you. When Christ manifests himself as judge...people will know that their decisions to eliminate God from their lives, or to teach people lies about God and his purpose, have the consequences that they scoffed at......just like the days of Noah, Jesus said (Matthew 24:37-39)...and here we are.