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The 144,000 and the "Rapture" (Christians only)
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Here's a quote from the JW's own website:
"2 Hundreds of years before John’s day, Jehovah had said to Isaiah: “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22) This prophecy was initially fulfilled when faithful Jews returned to Jerusalem in 537 B.C.E. after their 70-year exile in Babylon. In that restoration, they formed a cleansed society, “a new earth,” under a new governmental system, “new heavens.” "
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988042
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where does that say a mortal king was thrown out of heaven?Here's a quote from the JW's own website:
"2 Hundreds of years before John’s day, Jehovah had said to Isaiah: “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22) This prophecy was initially fulfilled when faithful Jews returned to Jerusalem in 537 B.C.E. after their 70-year exile in Babylon. In that restoration, they formed a cleansed society, “a new earth,” under a new governmental system, “new heavens.” "
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988042
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The war that is to take place in heaven is the figurative heaven. It's not in the heaven where the Father dwells. The red dragon is thrown into the earth. That means that he cast down from his place of authority.
This red dragon is the same who is called "the little horn" in Daniel chapter 7.
As a horn, he is a man of great power and authority. As a king or leader of a nation.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
It might help to realize that this "war in heaven" is going to take place within the borders of the Holy Land. But not until after the Temple is rebuilt and Jesus resurrects and translates his faithful ones.
Is that what you tell yourself? Do you think that Jesus is with every individual who thinks that they don't need a brotherhood....you do understand that if it was God's spirit that was directing all these individuals, who all have this direct line to Jesus, that you would all speak in agreement because that is what Paul says must be the case...
1 Corinthians 1:10...
"I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose." (NABRE)
Yet you all believe different things...how does that work? Does God give different interpretations to different people....or are you the 'chosen one' out of all those individuals?
Yours was a nice try too....sorry, no score.
And you know this.....how? Where is the scripture that speaks of the holy land? You do understand that there is no longer a holy land? It was only the holy land when God gave it to Israel. They are not the only inhabitants of it any longer......Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians have been fighting over it for centuries......it doesn't mean much to God any more...the land is too bloodstained. (Isaiah 1:15)
Jesus met a Samaritan woman at the well....
"The woman said to him, “Sir, I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain; but you people say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”
I don't believe that God feels an attachment to the holy land anymore because it is no longer holy...it is polluted.
There will never be another Temple built on Earth.....there is no need. Why do you think there has been no Temple for almost 2,000 years? The grand spiritual Temple is in heaven and the priests who officiate there are spirit creatures, like Jesus. Their subjects will be here on earth and the Kingdom will take them back to God and to the paradise they lost in the beginning.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
“Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years" Mal 3:3-4
"For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying. Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers" (Jer 33:17-21)
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me" (verse 22).
"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy upon them" (verses 24-26).
"At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance to your fathers " (Jer. 3: 17-18).
"I will turn my hand upon thee and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin."
"And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors, as at the beginning."
"Afterward thou shalt be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city."
"If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they have trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; and that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into their enemies' land; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.”
"But I will, for their sake, remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord. These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses." (Lev 26:40-46)
God made covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) in which they and their children (people from all nations, as adopted son's of Abraham) shall inherit the land which Abraham was instructed by God to walk. That land is the land of promise, the holy land.
Abraham never received that promise. Nor have any of his children. But they will.
God also made covenant with David in that David should have sons who will sit on his throne as rulers of all Israel and Levites as his ministers. If any man can break God's covenant with David, then that man can also break God's covenant that there should be no longer day and night.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Well it's evidence what Jesus Christ said..
Notice Jesus Christ said ( for where)
So it doesn't matter where it is.
Notice ( two or three) so it's two three.
Notice ( are gathered together)
Therefore so it doesn't matter as long two or three are gathered together.
Notice ( in my name) as long as two or three are gathered together in Jesus Christ name.
Notice ( there I am in the middle of them)
Therefore I'm number ( one ) the Spirit of truth to guide me into all truth being number ( two) and Jesus Christ in the middle makes number ( Three )
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Notice in 1 Corinthians 1:10--"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment"
Did you read 1 Corinthians 1:10 carefully.
Notice ( speak the same thing)
Now seeing I'm not in agreement with what is taught in the churches..why would I want to be apart of something that I do not agree on.
Notice ( that there be no division among you)
So i do not agree and it would definitely cause a division, why would I want to be in a church where I could cause a division.
because I don't believe in the same people do in the churches???
Notice ( that you be perfectly joined together)
Which this would not happen.. because I don't believe what the people in the churches are being taught.
Notice ( in the same mind in the same judgement)
If my judgement is true than I would not belong in any churches that teaches falsehoods and fables..
cataway
Well-Known Member
Matthew 24"4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many''
that is what i see in you . you say you believe in Jesus, yet some things you say does not ring true. perhaps you have good intent . that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
there is only one way to please God . he is not desperate to find people to honor him. you have a form of godly devotion .
2Timothy 3: But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
"Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass, which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell, even of that horn that had eyes and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I be held and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Dan 7:19-22)
The "other which came up" is the little horn with eyes and a mouth that speaks great things and who will make war with the saints and prevail....until...
The little horn is called the dragon in Revelation.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The little horn of Daniel 7 IS the dragon of Revelation.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2Th 2:3,4
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
"until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."
Paul's "man of lawlessness" is the dragon. He is the little horn of Daniel 7 (not 8) and the mouth of the beast.
"Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? But thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee."
This man of sin (red dragon, little horn, mouth of the beast) must be revealed before the coming of Christ. And there must be a Temple of God where this man is to sit and proclaim himself to be God.
Before the coming of Christ the temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt.
The "other which came up" is the little horn with eyes and a mouth that speaks great things and who will make war with the saints and prevail....until...
The little horn is called the dragon in Revelation.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The little horn of Daniel 7 IS the dragon of Revelation.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2Th 2:3,4
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
"until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."
Paul's "man of lawlessness" is the dragon. He is the little horn of Daniel 7 (not 8) and the mouth of the beast.
"Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? But thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee."
This man of sin (red dragon, little horn, mouth of the beast) must be revealed before the coming of Christ. And there must be a Temple of God where this man is to sit and proclaim himself to be God.
Before the coming of Christ the temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt.
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cataway
Well-Known Member
i am some what surprised you are not saying “Jesus is the new temple“
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Why would I say "Jesus is the new temple"?
Yes, many times.
I am not part of Christendom's church system either, but I have a brotherhood who are all in agreement, and who have completely separated from them.....I can assure you that there are more than two or three (some 8.5 million of us) who all agree with Jesus and each other. If two or three of them are gathered in his name, Jesus assures us that he is with them...not that there are only two or three to begin with.....how carefully did you read that verse?
We, as a brotherhood are perfectly joined together even though we speak different languages and are active in every nation on earth, we reject what the churches teach.....because Jesus has taught us all one truth.
If your judgment was true, you would not be alone. You would be separated out from the churches and into the one flock of the Fine Shepherd. When were Christians ever a "one man band"? Jesus has been separating the wheat from the weeds all through these last days. When the end comes, the wheat (sheep) will get their reward...and the weeds (goats) will receive what they deserve.
When Jesus sent the 70 out to preach, he sent them out in two's.....each to support the other. (Luke 10:1)
You cannot be a Christian without a brotherhood. Please think again.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
If my judgement be true..
I don't need anyone else.
My judgement does not depend anyone else..
You said when Jesus sent the 70 out.
That's a different subject.
The subject at hand is
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" Matthew 18:20.
And it's very obvious what two or three are and it's not 70.
Two or three, adds up to 5,
not 70,
Jesus did not say where 30 or 40 are gathered together...
No Jesus said plainly where Two or Three are gathered together in his name..
maybe it's you that needs to read it carefully..
Ask anyone what two or three means..
It sure doesn't means 70 ?