The Absolute Oneness of God

[Ben Avraham]

• I am a scholar, I know how to research historical documents. I have posted what I have discovered, and you have ignored it. You keep referencing questionable sources. Just because the Christian community believes the NT gospels doesn't mean they are accurate. Assuming you have an open mind about our discussion, here are some important references for you to read. The Missing Gospels by Darrell L. Bock, PH.D., The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack. The book by Mack is the most important. Using a brilliant analysis supported by the world's foremost biblical scholars, Mack traces the time line for the Jesus movement, documenting when Jesus movement leaders changed the Jesus narrative from Jesus the wise man to Jesus the son of God. If you reject his analysis, you must present a cogent argument.
• As a scholar, I have researched the Jesus family. There is absolutely no historical evidence for Joseph and Mary. What you find are what early church leaders wrote without historic affirmation. They, like NT authors, made up stories. Again, if you do serious research, you'll find prior gospels conflicting with NT gospels. Mostly, you don't find Jesus stories (narratives) in prior gospels.

I admit to having no evidence for Jesus being God, but neither do you have historical evidence for Jesus being the son God. Historical evidence supported by prior documents state Jesus was a wise man, not son of God.

As an explanation, examine human nature. Church leaders, anxious to promote their new religion, made up Jesus stories, including romantic family narratives.

Refute what I have posted with historical evidence.

I think I have already posted the historical evidences that Jesus was a son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Jesus was a Jew and he remained so for the 33 years of his short life. According to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, Israel, of all the other nations in the world was chosen to be the Son of God. That takes care of the concept of the collective Son of God. Now, to be God, it is beyond the nature of a Jew to imagine. Hence the absolute Monotheistic Nature of God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

God uses angels to deliver messages to humans. In my dreams, angels have been the messengers. However, when I have had dreams about heaven, God communicates situations and interpretations. I am convinced Jesus was God. I understand some of my beliefs based on dreams and visions contradict most religions. That doesn't mean they aren't true. You reflect on what your religion states, I reflect on what my dreams and visions communicate. Some of what I know however has scriptural support. Can you refute my argument, as posted, about the two witnesses being Jesus (God)?

The revelations of God to His servants the Prophets through dream and visions according to Numbers 12:6 was restricted to being from the People of Israel. Dreams by Gentiles must be verified according to the Law and the Prophets. (Isaiah 8:20) The text explains that the instructions and messages intended to be given by Gentiles must be verified on the basis that they live according to the Law and the Prophets. Otherwise, there is no truth in them.

 

[Repox]

The revelations of God to His servants the Prophets through dream and visions according to Numbers 12:6 was restricted to being from the People of Israel. Dreams by Gentiles must be verified according to the Law and the Prophets. (Isaiah 8:20) The text explains that the instructions and messages intended to be given by Gentiles must be verified on the basis that they live according to the Law and the Prophets. Otherwise, there is no truth in them.

Oh, interesting. I should have checked your rule book before I had a vision or dream. Ha. Ha.

As far as my identity is concerned, I had a dream about being Jewish.

I had a dream about my family heritage. I saw the Star of David on my family name in a row repeated four or five times. Four names could be more than 250 years. I calculate the time based on the longevity of my family going back as far as I know. My father and grandparents had long life spans. The dream makes sense based on what I know about my family. My Great, Great Grandfather had a Jewish first name. I thought that strange, but Christians also have Jewish names. In addition, when I was young I heard comments about my family. My father was a successful businessman and most of his clientele were Jews. I don't mean to stereotype but all my relatives on my father's side were successful businesspersons, even the women.

When I awoke from my dream I thought it meant my family had changed their name and identity about four or five generations ago. That same day I heard the name Solomon repeatedly in my head. Because I've thought about a Jewish identity, my dream makes sense.

Regardless of my heritage, I know for certain God is a duality. Why haven't you addressed my argument about the duality of God with reference to the two witnesses (Rev. 11)?

Sorry, but I find no confirmation of a monolithic God with physics. In my analysis of nature and science posted on this thread, I presented my duality of nature argument, which you haven't addressed. You can't win an argument by ignoring rebuttals.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Oh, interesting. I should have checked your rule book before I had a vision or dream. Ha. Ha. As far as my identity is concerned, I had a dream about being Jewish. I had a dream about my family heritage. I saw the Star of David on my family name in a row repeated four or five times. Four names could be more than 250 years. I calculate the time based on the longevity of my family going back as far as I know. My father and grandparents had long life spans. The dream makes sense based on what I know about my family. My Great, Great Grandfather had a Jewish first name. I thought that strange, but Christians also have Jewish names. In addition, when I was young I heard comments about my family. My father was a successful businessman and most of his clientele were Jews. I don't mean to stereotype but all my relatives on my father's side were successful businesspersons, even the women. When I awoke from my dream I thought it meant my family had changed their name and identity about four or five generations ago. That same day I heard the name Solomon repeatedly in my head. Because I've thought about a Jewish identity, my dream makes sense. Regardless of my heritage, I know for certain God is a duality. Why haven't you addressed my argument about the duality of God with reference to the two witnesses (Rev. 11)? Sorry, but I find no confirmation of a monolithic God with physics. In my analysis of nature and science posted on this thread, I presented my duality of nature argument, which you haven't addressed. You can't win an argument by ignoring rebuttals.

Repox, please, to believe that God is composed of a duality is not Jewish. So, it won't help you to claim Jewishness by having dreams. It will take you nowhere in terms of finding a Jew to believe you. The only way for Gentiles to find acceptance in the "club" is by joining God's Covenant with His People through conversion according to Halacha. (Isaiah 56:1-8) You can't even claim generic evidences if you insist on the proposition that God is a duality.

 

[Repox]

Repox, please, to believe that God is composed of a duality is not Jewish. So, it won't help you to claim Jewishness by having dreams. It will take you nowhere in terms of finding a Jew to believe you. The only way for Gentiles to find acceptance in the "club" is by joining God's Covenant with His People through conversion according to Halacha. (Isaiah 56:1-8) You can't even claim generic evidences if you insist on the proposition that God is a duality.

You don't understand, I mentioned it because it happened, not to please you. I really don't have much faith in any religion. I am arguing against your monolith view of God, not your religion. Let's keep it there. Where is your argument against what I have posted. Again, I propose God is a duality. If you refuse to reply, everyone will conclude you have no good reason to reject my arguments.

My proposition about God is not related to any particular religion or theology, it is about the fact of God's duality.

 

[Repox]

Again, here is a scriptural based argument for the duality of God.

I believe the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is the real story about Jesus. There is a verse in Daniel, Chapter 12:7, about end times. “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” This translates into three and one half years. The same words are found in Revelation 12:14. “The woman (Jesus) was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.” One may interpret the “power of the holy people” in Daniel to refer to the testimony of the "two witnesses" in Rev. 11. The time for the two witnesses to give testimony is 1,260 days, or three and one half years. (Rev. 11:3). The period for end times in Daniel, the women (Jesus) with two wings of a great eagle, and the time for the two witnesses are the same, 1,260 days.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Again, here is a scriptural based argument for the duality of God.
I believe the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is the real story about Jesus. There is a verse in Daniel, Chapter 12:7, about end times. “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” This translates into three and one half years. The same words are found in Revelation 12:14. “The woman (Jesus) was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.” One may interpret the “power of the holy people” in Daniel to refer to the testimony of the "two witnesses" in Rev. 11. The time for the two witnesses to give testimony is 1,260 days, or three and one half years. (Rev. 11:3). The period for end times in Daniel, the women (Jesus) with two wings of a great eagle, and the time for the two witnesses are the same, 1,260 days.

Daniel 12:7 is a reference to the time of oppressions through the Greeks under Antiochus IV when he set up the abomination of desolation in the Temple and, for 3.5 years the sacrifices had stopped. This is in the book of Maccabees but I don't recall right now the quote. It took that time for the Maccabees to restore the holiness of the Temple. Now, regarding your reference to the "real story about Jesus". You might be right as this applies to the Jesus of the NT and not the Jewish one whose gospel was the Tanach. Last but not least, the period for end times in Daniel was at the end of the Babylonian exile for the Jews after the 70 week-years of the prophecy according to Daniel 9:24-27.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You don't understand, I mentioned it because it happened, not to please you. I really don't have much faith in any religion. I am arguing against your monolith view of God, not your religion. Let's keep it there. Where is your argument against what I have posted. Again, I propose God is a duality. If you refuse to reply, everyone will conclude you have no good reason to reject my arguments. My proposition about God is not related to any particular religion or theology, it is about the fact of God's duality.

Your arguments have been well enough replied in the thread for this discussion. I suggest that you read it with a mind
based on Logic and Physics. Otherwise, we will only be wasting our time.

 

[Repox]

Daniel 12:7 is a reference to the time of oppressions through the Greeks under Antiochus IV when he set up the abomination of desolation in the Temple and, for 3.5 years the sacrifices had stopped. This is in the book of Maccabees but I don't recall right now the quote. It took that time for the Maccabees to restore the holiness of the Temple. Now, regarding your reference to the "real story about Jesus". You might be right as this applies to the Jesus of the NT and not the Jewish one whose gospel was the Tanach. Last but not least, the period for end times in Daniel was at the end of the Babylonian exile for the Jews after the 70 week-years of the prophecy according to Daniel 9:24-27.[/QUOTE

I get the impression you are dismissing the NT because it Is not a Jewish holy book. You must however take into consideration that some NT authors were Jewish, and, of course, Jesus was a Jew. I reject Jesus as the son of God, so I am not a Christian. I believe Jesus was God. If I am correct, what Jesus (OT Lord) said and did would be extremely relevant to Judaism. I believe Jesus was the "coming Messiah," sent to give testimony to His chosen people. We don't have a good picture of Jesus because NT authors got into fiction writing rather than presenting an accurate picture of Jesus (God). You still haven't addressed my 31/2 year argument for Daniel, the two witnesses, and the women with two wings.

 

[Repox]

Your arguments have been well enough replied in the thread for this discussion. I suggest that you read it with a mind
based on Logic and Physics. Otherwise, we will only be wasting our time.

What is the link to physics?

 

[Repox]

What is the link to physics?

 

[Repox]

What is the link to physics?

If this is your reference to physics, "Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits." I don't see anything new. Most believers assume God is a supernatural being, one without material substance. You don't make an argument for the oneness of God, just an hypothesis for the oneness of spirituality, which is, of course, is undefinable according to human understanding.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I get the impression you are dismissing the NT because it Is not a Jewish holy book. You must however take into consideration that some NT authors were Jewish, and, of course, Jesus was a Jew. I reject Jesus as the son of God, so I am not a Christian. I believe Jesus was God. If I am correct, what Jesus (OT Lord) said and did would be extremely relevant to Judaism. I believe Jesus was the "coming Messiah," sent to give testimony to His chosen people. We don't have a good picture of Jesus because NT authors got into fiction writing rather than presenting an accurate picture of Jesus (God). You still haven't addressed my 31/2 year argument for Daniel, the two witnesses, and the women with two wings.

Not a single Jew wrote a page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. You have all the right in the world to believe that Jesus was God. He must have been a Christian because a Jew would never have such an idea.

 

[Repox]

Not a single Jew wrote a page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. You have all the right in the world to believe that Jesus was God. He must have been a Christian because a Jew would never have such an idea.

You get a different perspective if you research the gospels, including prior gospels. I think I've mention this information in prior discussions.

Here is my argument again.

What if Jesus was God, and there is no son of God? If that is true, then God came into the world to give testimony to Jews (his chosen people). Also, God (Jesus) did not intend to start a new religion. Apparently, God doesn't micro-manage. Followers of Jesus came up with narrative stories that changed Jews perception of Jesus. If you read those gospels written prior to the NT gospels you don't find those narrative stories (Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is tempted by the devil, John baptizes Jesus, Jesus drives out devils, Jesus heals many, Jesus walks on water, etc.). Apparently, those stories were added to gain support for the Jesus movement. Here is the best reference for those ideas, The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack. Jesus movement people didn't propose Jesus to be the son of God or that he was crucified until about 40 to 50 years after Jesus was killed. Prior to that time, Jesus movement people claimed Jesus was a sage or wise man.

If what I am saying is true, it would change a lot. We would have almost two thousand years of a false religion, Christianity. It would mean Jesus, "the son of God," is a pagan god. What would happen to Jesus (God). Well, it appears as if he would be just one of those prophets or a wise men crying in the wilderness. Jesus (God) wasn't accepted by Jews then, so why would it be any different now? Jews were expecting a Messiah, but when he arrived, they didn't believe it. He didn't promise them liberation or a new kingdom. He spoke in moral platitudes, not in grandiose promises. Rejecting the Messiah, may be the most serious Jewish transgression.

It is incumbent on any one who is interested in the historical record to do research. Otherwise, there can be no intelligent discussion.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You get a different perspective if you research the gospels, including prior gospels. I think I've mention this information in prior discussions. Here is my argument again. What if Jesus was God, and there is no son of God? If that is true, then God came into the world to give testimony to Jews (his chosen people). Also, God (Jesus) did not intend to start a new religion. Apparently, God doesn't micro-manage. Followers of Jesus came up with narrative stories that changed Jews perception of Jesus. If you read those gospels written prior to the NT gospels you don't find those narrative stories (Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is tempted by the devil, John baptizes Jesus, Jesus drives out devils, Jesus heals many, Jesus walks on water, etc.). Apparently, those stories were added to gain support for the Jesus movement. Here is the best reference for those ideas, The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack. Jesus movement people didn't propose Jesus to be the son of God or that he was crucified until about 40 to 50 years after Jesus was killed. Prior to that time, Jesus movement people claimed Jesus was a sage or wise man. If what I am saying is true, it would change a lot. We would have almost two thousand years of a false religion, Christianity. It would mean Jesus, "the son of God," is a pagan god. What would happen to Jesus (God). Well, it appears as if he would be just one of those prophets or a wise men crying in the wilderness. Jesus (God) wasn't accepted by Jews then, so why would it be any different now? Jews were expecting a Messiah, but when he arrived, they didn't believe it. He didn't promise them liberation or a new kingdom. He spoke in moral platitudes, not in grandiose promises. Rejecting the Messiah, may be the most serious Jewish transgression. It is incumbent on any one who is interested in the historical record to do research. Otherwise, there can be no intelligent discussion.

Please, read the thread! This is the second time I have read this post of yours above and the only thing
it tells me is that you have not read the thread. Try to focus on the Physics of the tread to explain why Elohim is of an absolute Oneness. We could never admit that a man could be God. Not even a demigod which is the Greek doctrine of a son of God with an earthly woman. That's what the Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew says about Jesus in Mat. 1:18 I can see, you are trying hard to effect an approach to me but I tell you, the only way is through the thread. Jews are absolutely Monotheists.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I get the impression you are dismissing the NT because it Is not a Jewish holy book. You must however take into consideration that some NT authors were Jewish, and, of course, Jesus was a Jew. I reject Jesus as the son of God, so I am not a Christian. I believe Jesus was God. If I am correct, what Jesus (OT Lord) said and did would be extremely relevant to Judaism. I believe Jesus was the "coming Messiah," sent to give testimony to His chosen people. We don't have a good picture of Jesus because NT authors got into fiction writing rather than presenting an accurate picture of Jesus (God). You still haven't addressed my 31/2 year argument for Daniel, the two witnesses, and the women with two wings.

BTW, the NT is not Jewish at all. Not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. The gospel of the Jewish man called Jesus was the Tanach. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise.

 

[Repox]

Please, read the thread! This is the second time I have read this post of yours above and the only thing
it tells me is that you have not read the thread. Try to focus on the Physics of the tread to explain why Elohim is of an absolute Oneness. We could never admit that a man could be God. Not even a demigod which is the Greek doctrine of a son of God with an earthly woman. That's what the Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew says about Jesus in Mat. 1:18 I can see, you are trying hard to effect an approach to me but I tell you, the only way is through the thread. Jews are absolutely Monotheists.

Please read my replies. Here it is again.

If this is your reference to physics, "Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits." I don't see anything new. Most believers assume God is a supernatural being, one without material substance. You don't make an argument for the oneness of God, just an hypothesis for the oneness of spirituality, which is, of course, is undefinable according to human understanding.

In some ways, you could say the duality of God could be monotheistic. Assuming the two God's are inseparable and in heaven where they occupy a sphere, one could interpret God as monotheistic. It is a fine point of definition. Also, God stressed the sinfulness of paganism, so in the context of worship, there is only one God.

 

[Repox]

BTW, the NT is not Jewish at all. Not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. The gospel of the Jewish man called Jesus was the Tanach. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise.

If you had read what I have posted, you would know I don't believe in the NT. I believe Jesus was God, the Jewish Messiah. Assuming Jesus was the Messiah, Jews rejected their faith by rejecting their Lord.
Wasn't Paul a Jew?

 

[Desert Snake]

BTW, the NT is not Jewish at all. Not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. Jews would not write against their own Faith. The gospel of the Jewish man called Jesus was the Tanach. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise.

There is no jew in this context.
Essenes
Nazarenes
Hellenists
Pharisees
Etc

 

[MJFlores]

FOR MANY OF those who do not believe in God and ask this question if God exist, they insist that this question be answered according to their own standard which means you have to show them only “evidences” they wanted to see and dismiss otherwise. Because they already set their mind to accept only evidences they wanted to see, they insist to show to them only those they want, and will easily dismiss otherwise.


“SHOW ME YOUR GOD”

“Show me your God?” This what many of those who don’t believe in God wanted in order for them to believe that God truly exists. However, the Bible explicitly tells us that God is spirit:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)

Because God is spirit, we cannot see Him or God is invisible:

“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (I Timothy 1:17 NKJV)

It is a fact that not because we cannot see it, it means it does not exist. Like air, atom, electricity and many else, these are not visible, but it does not mean that they do not exist. “Life” itself cannot be seen, heard or touched, but there are proofs or evidences that “life” truly exists.

It is ridiculous that a person insists to show him “life” itself or else he will not believe it exists. A living thing grows, moves and many else that proves that it has life. What do you of a person that after you show him other evidences that life truly exists but immediately dismiss these evidences and still insists to show him life itself or else he will not believe that it exists?

Thus, we must not insist to “show God” for He is an invisible spirit. However, although we cannot see God Himself, but it does not mean that He does not exists.