The Absolute Oneness of God

[Windwalker]

Because HaShem is independent of His Creation.

So he is separate from Creation. Creation is outside God? Yes? Then God is not Infinite, as everything by definition is within the Infinite, and cannot ever outside it. This is not Oneness. It does not include everything. It is not the Infinite, but the finite.

Before the Universe was caused to exist, the Primal Cause was there when He proclaimed, "Let there be light!" That was the BB of Genesis 1:3.

I have no problem with that. Everything was created within God, who is Infinite. Creation not outside God. If it is, then God is "a God" that exists somewhere other that this universe, and is not infinite by definition.

No, I have not. HaShem is alone God. Creation is the work of His "hands".

Sure, but Creation is not outside God. It can't be, and God remain God.

God cannot be a duality with matter.

But nonduality resolves this. Both form and formlessness are inseparable from each other. If you separate it, that's duality.

Jesus was a Jew and he was not a Hellenist.

What does one's ethnicity have to do with what I said? He could have been an Eskimo and because of nonduality still be understood as God. God cannot be "elsewhere" to Creation and still be God understood as "Oneness". He would be "Otherness" otherwise. The Center of God is everywhere and nowhere. There is no outside of Absolute Oneness.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I closed my eyes while resting. For few seconds, I saw a vision of two small white colored spheres resembling pearls touching each other. I observed the objects to be the same size and color. My interpretation is the two spheres were symbols of God's duality. Both Gods are equal and stay permanently attached. It relates to a dream I had about the two Gods inside a sphere surrounded by angels. Before they created their first angel, the two Gods were perfect companions. Then, they created angels to participate in eternity with them. Since then, all angels, except Satan, have been obedient servants of the two Gods, loving and adoring them for all of eternity.

I thought you were arguing that God was "absolutely one?" And I mean no offense, but why do you believe that your vision accurately reflects the truth?

 

[psychoslice]

Well, as I read about your dream, I thought about what Jesus said when speaking about the Kingdom of God which was to be found within ourselves or among us. (Luke 17:21) Now, I understand you that we don't have to have a religion to see the truth within ourselves. Very good! It is called self-enlightening.

Yes I realized that later when reading a book on enlightenment, I wrote a book on my experience called "you are already there-an experience in consciousness".

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think the problem for humans trying to understand God is they have improper frameworks, or references. Almost everything about our material world, including physical laws, doesn't apply to the supernatural world. In my understanding of heaven, there are no atoms, no matter or energy, just bright white.

It depends on the kind of heavens you are talking about. Heavens as a synonym for the Universe and heavens according to Christian preconceived notions. In the heavens akin to the Universe, atoms, matter and energy are all that compose the Universe. Now, as the Christian heavens is concerned, you are right, it is all "bright white."

 

[Repox]

It depends on the kind of heavens you are talking about. Heavens as a synonym for the Universe and heavens according to Christian preconceived notions. In the heavens akin to the Universe, atoms, matter and energy are all that compose the Universe. Now, as the Christian heavens is concerned, you are right, it is all "bright white."

I don't think there is a Christian heaven, Jewish heaven, or any other religious heaven. There is just heaven where God and His angels are found. There is only one color, it is glittering white light streaming from the two Gods in a sphere. Around God are white fluffy angels resembling cotton balls, and, beyond the throne (sphere) of God, bright white light extends in all directions. Whereas in the universe you can break down matter and energy into atoms or quarks, in heaven there are brilliant white sparks of light. There are no spatial or physical references as found in our material universe. Compared to our gravity based world, heaven has no such coordinates, which means it is difficult, if not impossible to describe. I only have a few experiences from dreams. Heaven has no floors, doors, windows, buildings, or any other reference point found in our world.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't think there is a Christian heaven, Jewish heaven, or any other religious heaven. There is just heaven where God and His angels are found. There is only one color, it is glittering white light streaming from the two Gods in a sphere. Around God are white fluffy angels resembling cotton balls, and, beyond the throne (sphere) of God, bright white light extends in all directions. Whereas in the universe you can break down matter and energy into atoms or quarks, in heaven there are brilliant white sparks of light. There are no spatial or physical references as found in our material universe. Compared to our gravity based world, heaven has no such coordinates, which means it is difficult, if not impossible to describe. I only have a few experiences from dreams. Heaven has no floors, doors, windows, buildings, or any other reference point found in our world.

Neither do I. Jesus himself said that heavens is to be found within ourselves or among us, and not a place to go into. (Luke 17:21) HaShem is not to be found in a specified place as He is not restrict to space or time. HaShem is Spirit as Jesus himself said in John 4:24. Spirits are incorporeal. To be found into a place, something must be corporeal and the Lord is not. There is no such thing as two gods. HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. Angels qua cotton balls! You must be kidding! But from dreaming experiences, heavens have every thing you have mentioned above but all to be interpreted metaphorically.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So he is separate from Creation. Creation is outside God? Yes? Then God is not Infinite, as everything by definition is within the Infinite, and cannot ever outside it. This is not Oneness. It does not include everything. It is not the Infinite, but the finite. I have no problem with that. Everything was created within God, who is Infinite. Creation not outside God. If it is, then God is "a God" that exists somewhere other that this universe, and is not infinite by definition. Sure, but Creation is not outside God. It can't be, and God remain God. But nonduality resolves this. Both form and formlessness are inseparable from each other. If you separate it, that's duality. What does one's ethnicity have to do with what I said? He could have been an Eskimo and because of nonduality still be understood as God. God cannot be "elsewhere" to Creation and still be God understood as "Oneness". He would be "Otherness" otherwise. The Center of God is everywhere and nowhere. There is no outside of Absolute Oneness.

Yes, He is separated from His Creation. God is outside His Creation. And that's an evidence of God's Infinity. There is no somewhere else as the Universe is concerned; only God Who is Spirit. (John 4:24) I find no sense in your verbal juggling of God's existence. IMHO, your point in the post of yours above is to discard the existence of the Primal Cause. No problem, you are entitled to as long as you demonstrate to me what or Who caused the Universe to exist.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, He is separated from His Creation. God is outside His Creation. And that's an evidence of God's Infinity.

How is that possible? There is no outside of Infinity. Infinity is limitless. You just placed a limit, this far and no father, up to creation then it stops. That is not Infinity. Infinity includes everything that is, and beyond. Beyond the beyond, infinitely reaching without end, without beginning.

Your description above makes God a bubble of sorts. That bubble may be large, but it certainly cannot be described as Infinite, unless you mean that as a hyperbole, like really, really big. But that's still limited and finite.

I find no sense in your verbal juggling of God's existence.

Yes, of course. When you really start talking about things in terms of the Absolute or the Infinite, things will always naturally break out in paradoxes. You can't think in terms of "infinite" using finite terms of language which are by definition bounded, finite realities. What you can't wrap your mind around is how God can exist and be the Source of Creation, and yet something created not be separate from That which created. It's your mind imagining God in dualistic terms that causes this division, this boundary around God where you exist outside God. And that's the whole problem right there.

In Reality, I'm not doing a verbal "juggling". I'm demonstrating that you can't use words to understand the nature and being of God and creation. God and creation are nondual, or an Absolute Oneness. This is not something you can define and comprehend verbally. When I use these words, I am pointing to something which is beyond comprehension, but not beyond apprehension. When you define God verbally, as you do, you place boundaries around God so it will fit into your mind. When you do that, it's no longer God at all but a concept of the mind.

IMHO, your point in the post of yours above is to discard the existence of the Primal Cause.

Not at all. It's to make God, the Source and Ground of all being infinitely immanent, and infinitely transcendent in creation and all existence. Infinite means without beginning or end, and all that exists is not separate from that Infinity. To place God outside creation, is what discards God. It throws God out somewhere, carving out a bubble where God does not exist.

No problem, you are entitled to as long as you demonstrate to me what or Who caused the Universe to exist.

God. God IS. Nothing is separate from God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

How is that possible? There is no outside of Infinity. Infinity is limitless. You just placed a limit, this far and no father, up to creation then it stops. That is not Infinity. Infinity includes everything that is, and beyond. Beyond the beyond, infinitely reaching without end, without beginning.Your description above makes God a bubble of sorts. That bubble may be large, but it certainly cannot be described as Infinite, unless you mean that as a hyperbole, like really, really big. But that's still limited and finite.

Yes, of course. When you really start talking about things in terms of the Absolute or the Infinite, things will always naturally break out in paradoxes. You can't think in terms of "infinite" using finite terms of language which are by definition bounded, finite realities. What you can't wrap your mind around is how God can exist and be the Source of Creation, and yet something created not be separate from That which created. It's your mind imagining God in dualistic terms that causes this division, this boundary around God where you exist outside God. And that's the whole problem right there. In Reality, I'm not doing a verbal "juggling". I'm demonstrating that you can't use words to understand the nature and being of God and creation. God and creation are nondual, or an Absolute Oneness. This is not something you can define and comprehend verbally. When I use these words, I am pointing to something which is beyond comprehension, but not beyond apprehension. When you define God verbally, as you do, you place boundaries around God so it will fit into your mind. When you do that, it's no longer God at all but a concept of the mind. Not at all. It's to make God, the Source and Ground of all being infinitely immanent, and infinitely transcendent in creation and all existence. Infinite means without beginning or end, and all that exists is not separate from that Infinity. To place God outside creation, is what discards God. It throws God out somewhere, carving out a bubble where God does not exist. God. God IS. Nothing is separate from God.

The Universe is not infinite. All the scientists speak of the Universe as of being 14 billion years old. It means that the Universe has an age. If the Universe has an age and could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something or someone that preceded it aka the Primal Cause Who is not composed of finite elements. If you don't believe what I am saying, prove to me what or Who caused the Universe to exist? I think that the whole problem is that you are on denial. If you don't know how to answer my question, you cannot just deny that the Primal Cause is infinite and caused the Universe to begin. The Primal Cause, by Logic, would not share His infinity with created things. The Primal Cause is of an absolute Oneness. To make IT a duality with the perishable would deny His main characteristic which is monotheistic. The one of us here who is placing boundaries around HaShem is exactly you but you won't succeed. To insist on the assumption that HaShem is a duality you are saying nothing differently from a Christian who believes that Jesus was god. I know that infinity means without beginning and without end. The Universe had a beginning; otherwise scientists would not speak about the age of the Universe. Rather to think of God's creation as part of God Himself is what discards God from being God, and that is what you are doing.

 

[Windwalker]

The Universe is not infinite. All the scientists speak of the Universe as of being 14 billion years old. It means that the Universe has an age. If the Universe has an age and could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something or someone that preceded it aka the Primal Cause Who is not composed of finite elements.

I completely agree. I said so in the post you just responded to. God is not composed of finite element. If He were, he would be made of matter and be finite.

If you don't believe what I am saying, prove to me what or Who caused the Universe to exist? I think that the whole problem is that you are on denial.

I'm not in denial. Did you not read where I said I believe God creates the Universe? (Notice I put that in the present continuous tense there)?.

The Primal Cause, by Logic, would not share His infinity with created things.

You can't share Infinity. Everything is fully within it already. If it could be "shared" that would mean there is somewhere it does not exist. And at that "somewhere" it doesn't exist, Infinity ceases to be infinite and becomes finite. You can't see this yet?

Example, "Here is an a line that stretches on infinitely. However it stops at a certain point and ends. Is the line still infinite? Yes, or no?" I'll grant you this, "Infinity" is quite challenging for our minds to conceive of, what that looks like. That's all that's going on here for you, I believe.

The Primal Cause is of an absolute Oneness. To make IT a duality with the perishable would deny His main characteristic which is monotheistic.

Absolutely correct. Why then are you doing that? Why are you separating out the material world as "other" to God? That only works if you put a boundary around God and separate God from all that is and exists. That "Ground of Being" does not stop at the structures upon it. It runs all the way through everything. There is no "where" that God is not. When you stop God at a certain point, you have made a subject/object split. God is now dualistic. That's what you are doing.

The one of us here who is placing boundaries around HaShem is exactly you but you won't succeed.

Where am I placing a boundary? What am I excluding from God? Be specific and accurately reflect what I have said so far in so doing, such as not saying I deny God created this Universe which you did for some reason above.

To insist on the assumption that HaShem is a duality you are saying nothing differently from a Christian who believes that Jesus was god.

I am a nondualist. It may help for you to understand something about that. A nondualist understands that Oneness and duality are not separate from each other ultimately, but are simply understood by the mind as a certain truth of perception. Monism says that everything is the same of the same substance, for example a pantheistic view. Like saying everything is atoms. Dualism divides things up saying they are their own substance, such as God is one thing over here, and creation is another over there (what you are doing). Nonduality says both are true at the same time. It's a paradoxical understanding that renders these distinctions as unproblematic. The earth is the earth, but God is not other to the earth. The tree is the tree, God is God, the tree is not God and not not-God at the same instant. God is infinite, the tree is not, but God cannot exist outside the tree and be infinite. (Your mind is probably melting now. ).

As I said, it's paradoxical. There is the saying I read sometime ago a Hindu master said which captures just this nonduality:

The world is illusory,
Brahman alone is real,
Brahman is the world.

The real world of rocks and tree, is a real world of rocks and trees, but it is not other to God, and God is not made up of rocks and trees either. God is both wholly transcendent, and wholly immanent at the same moment. Timelessness and time are "Not one, not two". That is a true nonduality or "Oneness". What you are describing about God is a fixed duality. God is other to creation, and therefore a finite being with limits and boundaries. God now exists dualistically with you as subject and God as object, other to you.

I know that infinity means without beginning and without end. The Universe had a beginning; otherwise scientists would not speak about the age of the Universe. Rather to think of God's creation as part of God Himself is what discards God from being God, and that is what you are doing.

Why does that discard God from being God? Think of it as this, Creation is God expressing his being and becoming. Every created thing is the Expression of God, in all moments. God is not a fixed object. I'll say that again. God is not a fixed object. God is the Subject of all that ever was, is, and is becoming.

 

[paarsurrey]

Oh! I am sorry! "Him" because of the patriarchal concept in Jewish culture. The Primal Cause, aka HaShem is a Spirit as Jesus himself confirmed this truth in John 4:24. Spirits are incorporeal. There is no distinction of sex or whatever else in incorporeality.

I agree with one. Please
Regards

 

[Repox]

Neither do I. Jesus himself said that heavens is to be found within ourselves or among us, and not a place to go into. (Luke 17:21) HaShem is not to be found in a specified place as He is not restrict to space or time. HaShem is Spirit as Jesus himself said in John 4:24. Spirits are incorporeal. To be found into a place, something must be corporeal and the Lord is not. There is no such thing as two gods. HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. Angels qua cotton balls! You must be kidding! But from dreaming experiences, heavens have every thing you have mentioned above but all to be interpreted metaphorically.

Then, if you reject my description of heaven, what do you propose?

I reject the idea of heaven inside us. We are not gods, and our world is material not spiritual. If there is no heaven, where is God found. If it is within us, how did God create anything? There must be an explanation for the creation of the universe, or our world. If God didn't do it, how did it come about. If you know about God, explain His appearance. It is not logical or understandable for God to be inside us. We have no power to creative a single thing. We are creatures, not gods.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Then, if you reject my description of heaven, what do you propose? I reject the idea of heaven inside us. We are not gods, and our world is material not spiritual. If there is no heaven, where is God found. If it is within us, how did God create anything? There must be an explanation for the creation of the universe, or our world. If God didn't do it, how did it come about. If you know about God, explain His appearance. It is not logical or understandable for God to be inside us. We have no power to creative a single thing. We are creatures, not gods.

I propose to serve the Lord Almighty without any interest on rewards. No offense meant but, this only reminds me of dogs who behave well if they see treats in the hands of their masters. So, you reject the proposal put forth by Jesus. in Luke 17:21 I know we are not gods but, we must know when it is necessary to apply metaphorical language. If you want a literal idea of heaven, you can think of of the Universe as the Kingdom of God. The question "where is God found" is irrelevant. To be found anywhere is to be restricted to space and, to be restrict to space, one must be corporal and God is Spirit. God created every thing by His Word. "Let there be light, for instance, and there was light." (Genesis 1:3) What I know is that God caused the Universe to exist. The Universe could not have caused itself to exist. If you find hard to understand that God aka the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist, what or who do you think did it? Only the Almighty Who was not caused to exist, caused the Universe to exist. It could not have come about if the Lord had not caused it to exist. HaShem has no appearance. To exhibit an appearance, one must be corporal and, HaShem is incorporeal. How can something have an appearance if It has never been seen? Even His prophets would see God only in dreams and visions. In a vision or dream, God would take an appearance according to the wisdom or culture of His prophets. (Numbers 12:6) The problem with you is that for something to exist, It must been seen. Can you see love? No, you can't but you can feel.

 

[Repox]

I propose to serve the Lord Almighty without any interest on rewards. No offense meant but, this only reminds me of dogs who behave well if they see treats in the hands of their masters. So, you reject the proposal put forth by Jesus.
in Luke 17:21 I know we are not gods but, we must know when it is necessary to apply metaphorical language. If you
want a literal idea of heaven, you can think of of the Universe as the Kingdom of God. The question "where is God found" is irrelevant. To be found anywhere is to be restricted to space and, to be restrict to space, one must be corporal and God is Spirit. God created every thing by His Word. "Let there be light, for instance, and there was light."
(Genesis 1:3) What I know is that God caused the Universe to exist. The Universe could not have caused itself to exist. If you find hard to understand that God aka the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist, what or who do you think did it? Only the Almighty Who was not caused to exist, caused the Universe to exist. It could not have come about if the Lord had not caused it to exist. HaShem has no appearance. To exhibit an appearance, one must be corporal and, HaShem is incorporeal. How can something has an appearance if It has never been seen? Even His prophets would see God only in dreams and visions. In a vision or dream, God would take an appearance according to the wisdom of His prophets. (Numbers 12:6) The problem with you is that for something to exist, It must been seen.

In my dreams, I have been in heaven, which I have described on this forum. It is not my fault my dreams of heaven do not conform with traditional religious ideas. My description of heaven posted on this thread is accurate. I will not deny what I know because others don't approve. You bring up arguments for which I am not required to address. I never said God is not the primal cause for the universe, etc. It is a waste of time to address arguments for which I am not responsible.

 

[Ben Avraham]

From Ben Avraham to Windwalker:↑

Ben Avraham: The Universe is not infinite. All the scientists speak of the Universe as of being 14 billion years old. It means that the Universe has an age. If the Universe has an age and could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something or someone that preceded it aka the Primal Cause Who is not composed of finite elements.

Windwalker: I completely agree. I said so in the post you just responded to. God is not composed of finite element. If He were, he would be made of matter and be finite.

Ben Avraham: I don't see why you need to write so long a post, when you do agree with my views.

 

[paarsurrey]

From Ben Avraham to Windwalker:↑

Ben Avraham: The Universe is not infinite. All the scientists speak of the Universe as of being 14 billion years old. It means that the Universe has an age. If the Universe has an age and could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something or someone that preceded it aka the Primal Cause Who is not composed of finite elements.

Windwalker: I completely agree. I said so in the post you just responded to. God is not composed of finite element. If He were, he would be made of matter and be finite.

Ben Avraham: I don't see why you need to write so long a post, when you do agree with my views.

I agree with one and like one's argument.
Regards

 

[Ben Avraham]

In my dreams, I have been in heaven, which I have described on this forum. It is not my fault my dreams of heaven do not conform with traditional religious ideas. My description of heaven posted on this thread is accurate. I will not deny what I know because others don't approve. You bring up arguments for which I am not required to address. I never said God is not the primal cause for the universe, etc. It is a waste of time to address arguments for which I am not responsible.

It is all right to dream but, if your dreams do not fit in with the Word of God in the Tanach, they are false dreams. There were many among the false prophets in Israel.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

That's like saying only one parent can exist to create a child. Only one female dog exist to create a puppy. A plant can grow without water, soil, and sunlight.

If gods exist, it would make sense for it to be more than one god. So many things in life, why would we think the diversity of the earth and universe for that matter, is only a reflection of one person.

 

[Repox]

It is all right to dream but, if your dreams do not fit in with the Word of God in the Tanach, they are false dreams. There were many among the false prophets in Israel.

You are entitled to your opinion. It doesn't make any difference. I refuse to deny them. Even according to the Bible, it is difficult to discovery the truth. Each person is entitled to their own interpretations. If you think you know the truth, it shouldn't bother you what I believe. I will continue to post what I please about God.

Again, based on my dreams, here is my description of heaven.

I don't think there is a Christian heaven, Jewish heaven, or any other religious heaven. There is just heaven where God and His angels are found. There is only one color, it is glittering white light streaming from the two Gods in a sphere. Around God are twelve white fluffy angels resembling cotton balls, and, beyond the throne (sphere) of God, bright white light extends in all directions. Whereas in the universe you can break down matter and energy into atoms or quarks, in heaven there are brilliant white sparks of light. Physical laws don't apply in heaven. There are no spatial or physical references as found in our material universe. Compared to our gravity based world, heaven has no such coordinates, which means it is difficult, if not impossible to describe. I only have a few experiences from dreams. Heaven has no floors, doors, windows, buildings, or any other reference point found in our world.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You are entitled to your opinion. It doesn't make any difference. I refuse to deny them. Even according to the Bible, it is difficult to discovery the truth. Each person is entitled to their own interpretations. If you think you know the truth, it shouldn't bother you what I believe. I will continue to post what I please about God. Again, based on my dreams, here is my description of heaven. I don't think there is a Christian heaven, Jewish heaven, or any other religious heaven. There is just heaven where God and His angels are found. There is only one color, it is glittering white light streaming from the two Gods in a sphere. Around God are twelve white fluffy angels resembling cotton balls, and, beyond the throne (sphere) of God, bright white light extends in all directions. Whereas in the universe you can break down matter and energy into atoms or quarks, in heaven there are brilliant white sparks of light. Physical laws don't apply in heaven. There are no spatial or physical references as found in our material universe. Compared to our gravity based world, heaven has no such coordinates, which means it is difficult, if not impossible to describe. I only have a few experiences from dreams. Heaven has no floors, doors, windows, buildings, or any other reference point found in our world.

I am sorry to contradict your denial but, for a Jew in the Tanach is not al all difficult to discover the truth. If you are concerned with other people's belief is a personal position because the whole Christianity bothers themselves that another believes differently. What bothers me in your belief is our mission from Elohim to share the truth of God with you because we have been assigned as light unto the Gentiles if you read Isaiah 42:6 The Heaven of God is not a place to be found into but a peaceful estate of mind if you read Luke 17:21. "The Kingdom of God is within you, or among you." God is of an Absolute Oneness. Under no circumstances there are two Gods which is a Christian doctrine, not Jewish. Your description of Heaven is too pagan. Now, you are right to say that Physical laws don't apply in heaven because, indeed, they don't; only in the Universe.