The Absolute Oneness of God

[metis]

If HaShem did not cause the Universe to exist, go ahead and tell me what and how was the Universe caused to exist?

Maybe infinity?

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you research the questions, you will find the NT gospel authors wrote their gospels 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. Then, if you cross check those gospels with prior gospels you'll find they are different. You do not find "Jesus stories" in prior gospels. What you find are "Jesus sayings," not stories. Hardly anyone does research. Most Christians just accept on faith every word from the four gospels. It is as if those gospel authors were perfect, they were supermen, or holy, they knew every word of God. Wait, weren't they saints? Just think about it, so many perfect people here on earth.

It is also interesting that those prior gospels made no mention of Jesus being the son of God and no mention of the crucifixion. Hey, that's why the Catholic Church destroyed so many of the other gospels! they didn't agree with the saintly four gospels. What terrible heresy!

Moreover, if you research the prior gospels, you will find the real Jesus didn't make Anti-Semitic comments, didn't make speeches criticizing Jewish authorities, and was not a rebel. Jesus (God) came into the world to give testimony to His chosen people. NT authors were not Jews, had never visited the holy land, and were Anti-Semitic as their NT gospels testified.

I agree with you that the gospel authors wrote their gospels about 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. They were all Hellenists somehow former disciples of Paul. But of one thing I am sure, they could not have been Jewish. Jews would not write against their own Faith.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Maybe infinity?

Infinity! I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. Infinity is not a being with the ability to cause something to exist. Infinity is a condition which BTW, does not apply to the Universe. All scientists speak of the Universe as having an age. To have an age, something must have had a beginning. If the Universe had a beginning and, of course, could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that something else that preceded it caused it to exist. Hence, the Primal Cause.

 

[Repox]

I agree with you that the gospel authors wrote their gospels about 40 to 50 years after Jesus was murdered. They were all Hellenists somehow former disciples of Paul. But of one thing I am sure, they could not have been Jewish. Jews would not write against their own Faith.

Thanks for confirming what few Christians know. I am sure Satan would be happy for the way God's truth has been distorted. As for Paul, he got it wrong. I had a dream about Paul.

My dream about Paul is my most detailed supernatural dream. I was walking on a dirt street in an ancient village of stone and brick houses. After a couple of blocks, I turned a corner and walked into a village square where people had gathered. I walked into a small building next to the square where a dozen or more men sat on benches. Paul, wearing a robe, held a bouquet of palm branches and flowers. As he walked round the room, he leaned over chatting with the men. Some of the men came over and gave him palm branches for his bouquet. There was something strange about Paul; he had a shiny baldhead with pieces of transplanted hair. When I awoke, I thought about his shiny baldhead with those hair transplants. It occurred to me his transplanted hairs were symbols of his false epistles. From other dreams, I've learned that Jesus was God and not the son of God. The New Testament is full of errors, including Paul's epistles.

In short, we either go back to Judaism or rewrite the New Testament. I think it is too late, we will never know the real truth about Jesus. Most prior gospels have been destroyed by church leaders or by the Catholic Church.

 

[metis]

Infinity! I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. Infinity is not a being with the ability to cause something to exist. Infinity is a condition which BTW, does not apply to the Universe. All scientists speak of the Universe as having an age. To have an age, something must have had a beginning. If the Universe had a beginning and, of course, could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that something else that preceded it caused it to exist. Hence, the Primal Cause.

Most cosmologists do not feel that our universe miraculously came out of nowhere, thus leaning in the direction that our universe is likely just a minute speck in something much larger, such as a multiverse or what is hypothesized in Brane Theory.

Secondly, chemical and atomic reactions can and do produce effects that can vary widely as they combine, recombine, and/or split. This is basic to both chemistry and physics. Under intense pressure and heat, all sorts of things can happen, including some that may yet not be known.

Thirdly, there simply is not one shred of evidence to presupposes there had to be a "Primal Cause" or even what that "Primal Cause" would even be if it indeed existed.

And finally, I don't know the steps that led to our universe, nor do cosmologists know. Was there a deity that created all? deities? How could one tell for sure since this took place 13 billion years ago, and I and they ain't quite old enough to have seen it for myself or themselves.

Therefore, it is not I nor the cosmologists that are jumping to opinions without evidence, and so my resolve can be read at the bottom of my posts. I admit that I don't know, plus I admit it could be caused by a deity or deities, so, the position I take is "whatever happened, happened".

 

[Ben Avraham]

Most cosmologists do not feel that our universe miraculously came out of nowhere, thus leaning in the direction that our universe is likely just a minute speck in something much larger, such as a multiverse or what is hypothesized in Brane Theory.

Secondly, chemical and atomic reactions can and do produce effects that can vary widely as they combine, recombine, and/or split. This is basic to both chemistry and physics. Under intense pressure and heat, all sorts of things can happen, including some that may yet not be known.

Thirdly, there simply is not one shred of evidence to presupposes there had to be a "Primal Cause" or even what that "Primal Cause" would even be if it indeed existed.

And finally, I don't know the steps that led to our universe, nor do cosmologists know. Was there a deity that created all? deities? How could one tell for sure since this took place 13 billion years ago, and I and they ain't quite old enough to have seen it for myself or themselves.

Therefore, it is not I nor the cosmologists that are jumping to opinions without evidence, and so my resolve can be read at the bottom of my posts. I admit that I don't know, plus I admit it could be caused by a deity or deities, so, the position I take is "whatever happened, happened".

The idea of a multiverse does not make sense at all. According to Logic "Universe" is all that there is. There is no "two or three everything." If there was any thing left to form another universe, it would be tantamount to imply that there would be another "everything."

If, as you assume above, there is not a shred of evidence that the Primal Cause could exist, who caused you to exist yourself or someone that preceded you? Obviously, the couple that preceded you and called your parents. And your parents? Their parents; and their parents? their parents. That's called generic Causality all the way back to the first cause. If there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause, where did the first caused parents or any thing come from, out of the hat of the magician?

So, you are ready to admit that you know nothing but one; that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. That's called atheistic preconceived notions; the fear to be stoned to death, so to speak, if an atheist admits the possibility for the existence of the Primal Cause.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Thanks for confirming what few Christians know. I am sure Satan would be happy for the way God's truth has been distorted. As for Paul, he got it wrong. I had a dream about Paul.
My dream about Paul is my most detailed supernatural dream. I was walking on a dirt street in an ancient village of stone and brick houses. After a couple of blocks, I turned a corner and walked into a village square where people had gathered. I walked into a small building next to the square where a dozen or more men sat on benches. Paul, wearing a robe, held a bouquet of palm branches and flowers. As he walked round the room, he leaned over chatting with the men. Some of the men came over and gave him palm branches for his bouquet. There was something strange about Paul; he had a shiny baldhead with pieces of transplanted hair. When I awoke, I thought about his shiny baldhead with those hair transplants. It occurred to me his transplanted hairs were symbols of his false epistles. From other dreams, I've learned that Jesus was God and not the son of God. The New Testament is full of errors, including Paul's epistles. In short, we either go back to Judaism or rewrite the New Testament. I think it is too late, we will never know the real truth about Jesus. Most prior gospels have been destroyed by church leaders or by the Catholic Church.

Interesting! You say above that you will never know the real truth about Jesus and, by the same token, you say you have learned that Jesus was God and not the son of God. So, what truth about Jesus is the truth that you will never know? If you ask me, the only confirmed truth about Jesus is that he was a Jewish man, born of a Jewish mother, and died like thousands of Jews in the First Century.

 

[metis]

The idea of a multiverse does not make sense at all. According to Logic "Universe" is all that there is.

Undoubtedly, the word "universe" was coined before cosmologists realized there was a good chance that we're actually in a "multiverse".

If, as you assume above, there is not a shred of evidence that the Primal Cause could exist, who caused you to exist yourself or someone that preceded you?

I'm not assuming anything along this line as far as a "Primal Cause is concerned.

So, you are ready to admit that you know nothing but one; that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. That's called atheistic preconceived notions

Again, I'm not assuming anything, however you certainly are.

You must think that cosmologists are terribly ignorant about the universe or multiverse, but I would suggest that they know a lot more about this arena than either you or I. Therefore, imo, our humbleness could go a long way in areas that are not our areas of expertise.

 

[Repox]

Interesting! You say above that you will never know the real truth about Jesus and, by the same token, you say you have learned that Jesus was God and not the son of God. So, what truth about Jesus is the truth that you will never know? If you ask me, the only confirmed truth about Jesus is that he was a Jewish man, born of a Jewish mother, and died like thousands of Jews in the First Century.

What I mean is, assuming Jesus was God, we can't rely on the four NT gospels, they are about the son of God. As for my knowing Jesus was God, it has come from my dreams. Well, I know, I can't prove it. So, because we can only rely on those four NT gospels, there is no other source. Well, maybe, if you read the prior gospels, especially The Gospel of Thomas, you find a different Jesus. Based on those gospels, you can conclude Jesus may have been God. In those gospels, Jesus kept talking about the Kingdom of Heaven. Who else but God would be so preoccupied with that subject?

 

[Ben Avraham]

What I mean is, assuming Jesus was God, we can't rely on the four NT gospels, they are about the son of God. As for my knowing Jesus was God, it has come from my dreams. Well, I know, I can't prove it. So, because we can only rely on those four NT gospels, there is no other source. Well, maybe, if you read the prior gospels, especially The Gospel of Thomas, you find a different Jesus. Based on those gospels, you can conclude Jesus may have been God. In those gospels, Jesus kept talking about the Kingdom of Heaven. Who else but God would be so preoccupied with that subject?

Yes, as you have mentioned above, you know you can never prove that Jesus was God. As a matter of fact no one could ever be able to prove that Jesus was God because God does not die and Jesus did and still remain in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalm 49:12,20.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Undoubtedly, the word "universe" was coined before cosmologists realized there was a good chance that we're actually in a "multiverse". I'm not assuming anything along this line as far as a "Primal Cause is concerned. Again, I'm not assuming anything, however you certainly are. You must think that cosmologists are terribly ignorant about the universe or multiverse, but I would suggest that they know a lot more about this arena than either you or I. Therefore, imo, our humbleness could go a long way in areas that are not our areas of expertise.

As I can see, you insist on the assumption that the Primal Cause does not exist and even refuse to get into that line, as you prefer the incomparable wisdom of the cosmologists. In that case, I have a hypothetical question. Assuming that indeed, as you imply to convey, the Primal Cause does not exist. Simple question. Did the universe cause itself to exist or was it caused by something else that preceded it? I ask only that you don't forget that the Universe is all that there is.

 

[Repox]

Yes, as you have mentioned above, you know you can never prove that Jesus was God. As a matter of fact no one could ever be able to prove that Jesus was God because God does not die and Jesus did and still remain in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalm 49:12,20.

It is possible for the physical body of Jesus to die, but the spiritual body of God would return back to heaven.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It is possible for the physical body of Jesus to die, but the spiritual body of God would return back to heaven.

That's another evidence that Jesus could not have been God, as God does not have a spiritual body; and, BTW, spirits don't have bodies. Spirits are emanations, perceived only during dreams or visions. The idea in the Christian mind serves only to anthropomorphize the existence of HaShem which is a reason for idolatry. (Deuteronomy 4:15-20; Isaiah 46:5)

 

[metis]

As I can see, you insist on the assumption that the Primal Cause does not exist....

I wish you would actually read what I wrote since I never said such a thing. This is from my post #148: "I'm not assuming anything along this line as far as a "Primal Cause" is concerned."

Capice?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I wish you would actually read what I wrote since I never said such a thing. This is from my post #148: "I'm not assuming anything along this line as far as a "Primal Cause" is concerned." Capice?

Now, please, reread your post #145 as follows:

"Most cosmologists do not feel that our universe miraculously came out of nowhere, thus leaning in the direction that our universe is likely just a minute speck in something much larger, such as a multiverse or what is hypothesized in Brane Theory.

Secondly, chemical and atomic reactions can and do produce effects that can vary widely as they combine, recombine, and/or split. This is basic to both chemistry and physics. Under intense pressure and heat, all sorts of things can happen, including some that may yet not be known.

Thirdly, there simply is not one shred of evidence to presupposes there had to be a "Primal Cause" or even what that "Primal Cause" would even be if it indeed existed.

And finally, I don't know the steps that led to our universe, nor do cosmologists know. Was there a deity that created all? deities? How could one tell for sure since this took place 13 billion years ago, and I and they ain't quite old enough to have seen it for myself or themselves.

Therefore, it is not I nor the cosmologists that are jumping to opinions without evidence, and so my resolve can be read at the bottom of my posts. I admit that I don't know, plus I admit it could be caused by a deity or deities, so, the position I take is "whatever happened, happened".

You say above that "There simply is not one shred of evidence to presuppose there had to be a 'Primal Cause' or even what that 'Primal Cause' would even be if it indeed existed." To me, it means that you know that there is no evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. It further means that you are not ready to accept the evidence for the existence of generic Causality. It finally means that for you, humans do not exist either.

 

[metis]

Now, please, reread your post #145 as follows:




You say above that "There simply is not one shred of evidence to presuppose there had to be a 'Primal Cause' or even what that 'Primal Cause' would even be if it indeed existed." To me, it means that you know that there is no evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. It further means that you are not ready to accept the evidence for the existence of generic Causality. It finally means that for you, humans do not exist either.

Again, you are mischaracterizing what I've been saying, so I give up.

 

[Repox]

That's another evidence that Jesus could not have been God, as God does not have a spiritual body; and, BTW, spirits don't have bodies. Spirits are emanations, perceived only during dreams or visions. The idea in the Christian mind serves only to anthropomorphize the existence of HaShem which is a reason for idolatry. (Deuteronomy 4:15-20; Isaiah 46:5)

No one really knows, so it is a discussion without verification. Assuming Jesus was God, God would have a human body while in the world. By spiritual body, I mean the one in the supernatural world. If there are no spiritual bodies in heaven, what do you call them?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God. However if you said that God is transcendent to the world, yet immanent in it simultaneously, I would agree.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

Yes, God is absolutely one, but to say that the apparent existence of similar and dissimilar elements shows that these are not an indivisible aspect of the one God is not true, for if they existed separate from God, then God is not omnipresent and thus not absolute. It would also imply duality, that which exists as God, and that which exists separate from God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, God is absolutely one, but to say that the apparent existence of similar and dissimilar elements shows that these are not an indivisible aspect of the one God is not true, for if they existed separate from God, then God is not omnipresent and thus not absolute. It would also imply duality, that which exists as God, and that which exists separate from God.

I am not too sure I can follow your thoughts about God in this post of yours above. As far as I am concerned, nothing in God exists apart from Him. Perhaps you have the results of His actions in your mind. The apparent distinction is in us, not in God. The absolute Oneness of God is not affected by His plurality of actions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No one really knows, so it is a discussion without verification. Assuming Jesus was God, God would have a human body while in the world. By spiritual body, I mean the one in the supernatural world. If there are no spiritual bodies in heaven, what do you call them?

Debating with a Jew about the Oneness of God, you must make use of Logic. But you are speculating and, there is no place for Logic in assumptions. Assuming Jesus was God is good but only within the Christian realm of preconceived notions. Spirits are concepts which can be considered with bodies but only in vision or dreams.