The American Indian and Palistinians.

[jeffrey]

As suggested in another thread, is there a correlation between the two? The way the 1st settlers treated the American Indian, taking their land, and the way Israel is treating the Palestinians?

 

[Ori]

Quite possibly, I never thought about it in that way, it's a sad situation.

 

[ChrisP]

Waves of immigrants have been removing people of their land, forcing them into other areas since time immemorial.

We're just aware of every little thing that goes on now due to satellites, the internet and general improvements in communication. This is nothing new. This is what humanity does.

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done.

Lao Tzu.

 

[michel]

As suggested in another thread, is there a correlation between the two? The way the 1st settlers treated the American Indian, taking their land, and the way Israel is treating the Palestinians?

Ouch, that is a prickly subject as far as I am concerned; (the palestinian/Israeli situation, I mean).....I have a friend on this forum who, I know, will take opposing views from mine here, and it is not easy for me to post something that I know will upset a friend; but maybe this will put it in perspective for you.

http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1058523664.php
Middle East Myths - The Myth of Palestine
rbooker.com- Sunday 20th Jul 2003


Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda and Information, said that a big lie that is told often enough and long enough will eventually be accepted as truth. With cooperation from the world's media, coupled with ignorance, apathy, and anti-Semitism among the nations, Israel is being presented as a giant Goliath killing little Davids who are only armed with stones. There would be peace in the Middle East if only Goliath Israel would agree to little David's demand for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. This is one of the many lies constantly repeated to the uninformed West. The purpose of this presentation is to expose some of the myths (read that big lies) regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict.
history of palestine palestine history history of israel and palestinians.
Myth #1 - The Myth of Palestine
In an article entitled, "The Lesson of Palestine," printed in the Middle East Journal, October 1949, Arab activist, Musa Alami, wrote, "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? … The people are in great need of a "myth" of imagination. The myth of nationality would create "identity" and "self-respect."
The Arab world has certainly demonstrated great skill in the "myth" of imagination. They have done such a good job that they have convinced much of the world that their "myths" are facts. Perhaps their biggest myth is the myth of Palestine. The Arab world would have us believe that the Palestinians have been in "Palestine" from "time immemorial" but were displaced by the Jews when Israel became a state in 1948. But what are the facts?
While we are not certain of the exact dates, Joshua conquered the Land God promised the Jews in the 13th century BCE. King David established Jerusalem as the capital of Israel around 1000 BCE. King Solomon built the Jewish Temple about 960 BCE. This was almost 1000 years before the beginning of Christianity and 1600 years before the rise of Islam. As Prime Minister Barak has noted, "When Jesus came to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts, he didn't come to a church or a mosque, he came to the Temple." It is not the Church Mount or the Mosque Mount that is fought over, it is the Temple Mount. It was the Temple Mount centuries before Christianity tried to make it the Church Mount and Islam tried to make it the Mosque Mount.
However, not to be confused with facts, in a personal audience I had several years ago with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was appointed by Arafat, he boldly declared that the Arabs had been living in the Land for 10,000 years. Based on conservative Bible chronology, that means the Arabs have been living in the Land before the Almighty created Adam and Eve.
How did Israel become Palestine and who are the Palestinians? The second Jewish war with the Romans took place in 132-135 CE. Led by Rabbi Akiva and Simon bar Kochba, the Jewish uprising was crushed by the Roman Emperor Hadrian who sought to de-Judaize Jerusalem and make it a pagan city. Hadrian renamed Jerusalem "Aelia Capitolina" in honor of Jupiter. He changed the name of Judea and gave it the name of the Jews ancient enemy, the Philistines. He called it -- Palestine.
Over time, Palestine was ruled by the Roman Byzantines (312-637) [Persian interrupt 614-629], Omayyad Arabs (638-750), Islamic Abbassid's (750-1099), Crusaders (1099-1291) [Saladin the Kurd interrupt 1187-93], Mamluks (1291-1516), Ottoman Turks (1517-1917), and the British Mandate (1917-1948). None of these rulers established a sovereign state in the Land and Jerusalem was never the capital of any empire since the time of King David. Palestine was a forgotten desolate, wasteland, but historical records show there was always a Jewish presence in the Land.
The revival of modern Jewish life in the Land began in the 1880's with the arrival of Russian refugees from the Russian pogroms. A second wave of immigration, also from Russia, was in 1905. This was followed by later immigrations resulting in a growing Jewish population in the Land. When the Jews came to the Land, they found a malaria infested swamp in the north and an uninhabitable desert in the south. It was as if the God of the Bible had kept the Land hidden away in obscurity until the rightful owners -- the Jews returned to claim it.
The Jewish pioneers did not steal the Land from the Arabs. They purchased the Land at highly inflated prices from absentee landlords living outside the Land. As the Jews worked the Land, it began to prosper. While there were Jews and Arabs living in the Land, there were many poor migrant Arab farm workers in the surrounding Arab countries who needed work. When they heard that the Land was prospering under the hand of the Jews, they migrated to Palestine to get work from the Jews. Furthermore, the British allowed many thousands of Arabs into Palestine illegally while barring the Jews from entering the Land. For the most part, the Arab Palestinians are these peasant farm workers and illegal aliens. "Palestinians" have never been a distinct people, they have never had a sovereign land called Palestine, Jerusalem has never been their capital, there is no Palestinian language or culture, and there is no Palestinian people. It is a myth created after the Jews liberated Jerusalem in 1967.
Before the birth of the State of Israel, Arab leaders themselves denied the existence of an Arab country called Palestine. In 1937, Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi said, "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. 'Palestine" is alien to us; it is the Zionists who introduced it." In 1946, a distinguished Princeton professor and Arab historian said, "There is no such thing as Palestine in Arab history, absolutely not."
All who lived in the Land, Jews, Arabs, and Christians, were called Palestinians. In fact, the Jerusalem Post was called the Palestinian Post. Under the British Mandate, the Palestinian Jews were given a state. But before this state came into existence, Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, in 1922, took away seventy-seven percent of the geographic area promised to the Jews and created Transjordan as a state for the Palestinian Arabs. Israel would be for the Palestinian Jews and Transjordan (now Jordan) for the Palestinian Arabs.
Israel became a state in the War of Independence in 1948. At that time, approximately 600,000 Arabs fled to become refugee pawns in the hands of neighboring Arab states. Some number of Arabs stayed to become Israeli citizens. While we certainly sympathize with the plight of the Arab refugees, their problems could easily be solved if their Arab brothers cared enough to assimilate them as the Jews did their own 800,000 immigrants who were kicked out from the Arab countries.


I might add, that when the jewish settled, there was nothing - only desert. It was only through their arduous efforts that they turned desert into well irrigated and lush land. It was then the the Palestinians decided that the Jews should not have a right to the land..........

 

[ChrisP]

Good points that are often ignored Michel.

 

[Green Gaia]

The circumstances between the two are so HUGELY different, I really don't think you can compare the two events. I'm not as familiar with Israeli/Palestinian conflict as I am with what happened to the Native Americans, and while in each instance one group lost their homes, the events that led up to each are so vastly different that I don't think you can fairly compare them.

 

[Darkdale]

As suggested in another thread, is there a correlation between the two? The way the 1st settlers treated the American Indian, taking their land, and the way Israel is treating the Palestinians?

No. No correlation, connection or really anything in common.

You know, people's ignorance of history has got to be the main reason why they come up with ideas like this. If all you know about Israel and Palestine is that Israel is occupying it and all you know about the Native Americans is that they were wiped out by the Europeans, you lack the necessary perspectives to even begin thinking about comparing the two.

 

[opensoul7]

I am not justifying anything ! was not Judea originally the Jews who had it taken by force from the Romans? And did not the Jews get left by the world there after ww2 when the arab nations tried to destroy them ? when no one came to help did they not win the 6 days war? Like I said I am not saying this is a justification of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, I feel that situation is a sad one on both sides.I am just making a historical point.Until 63 B.C Judea was a independant state(history in between)then in 135 Hadrian renamed Judea Syria Palaestina , but not until 640 a.d did the Muslim Arab rule begin.It is believed to be the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the world .The sad truth to it all is the fact that is considered the holiest place on earth , the foundation of the three most followed religions in the world. But a place that has never seen peace , a place of continuous violence , a tragedy in motion.I also think it is different than the native american indians , alot different. Judea was taken and held by force throughout it's history . America would have never been taken had not the indians helped the white settlers to survive. That single act of friendship and kindness was there downfall . And the Tragedy of the Indians is probably the most overlooked tragedy in American history.A tragedy that continous to this day , a people still overlooked and left behind.

 

[opensoul7]

I also agree with darkdale and Maize . The history is so totally different there is comparison possible.Its grapes and watermellons, or like trying to compare WW2 to the modern war in Iraq.

 

[benjosh]

I also agree with darkdale and Maize . The history is so totally different there is comparison possible.Its grapes and watermellons, or like trying to compare WW2 to the modern war in Iraq.

I think the comparison of Palestinians and the Native Americans are similar in principle. The dominant cultures marginalize those of a different culture no matter where that may be.

Of course if those marginalized have the avowed purpose of pushing you off into the ocean or destroying your race from the face of the earth, there would be strong reasons to do more than marginalize them. . . . . I think they call that war.


benJosh

 

[Green Gaia]

I think the comparison of Palestinians and the Native Americans are similar in principle. The dominant cultures marginalize those of a different culture no matter where that may be.

But that can be said about many groups in many different cultures. Why single out these two for comparsion when they really have nothing else in common?

 

[john63]

I find it interesting that the LDS faction (except for Benjosh) is strangely quiet on issues of native Americans. Is it not your opinion that native Americans were origionally Israelites?

 

[Katzpur]

I find it interesting that the LDS faction (except for Benjosh) is strangely quiet on issues of native Americans. Is it not your opinion that native Americans were origionally Israelites?

We absolutely believe that some of the Native Americans are descendents of the House of Israel. I don't think any of us would deny that for a minute. But, when you say "Native Americans," you're talking about an enormous and very diverse group of people. To generalize, and say that the Native Americans were originally Israelites simply would not be accurate. We believe that many groups of people migrated to the American continent in ancient times. Among these were Lehi and his family. They intermarried, merged with other groups, etc. To make a blanket statement about the origins of the American Indians is foolhardy and asking for an argument. I find myself in enough arguments without going out looking for them!

 

[jeffrey]

I think native Americans migrated here from Asia, but that's a different thread. I also agree there is a big difference. The 1st settlers took the land that was never theirs. I also say a tape once where Arafat, if i spelled his name right, said there would never be piece until that last jew was dead. Pretty scary.

 

[Eynah]

But that can be said about many groups in many different cultures. Why single out these two for comparsion when they really have nothing else in common?

In the thread in question, the reason I mentioned the Native Americans is because of the fact who I was asking lived in Utah. I was asking if they came to the Gov. of Utah and asked for the land back, if he would willingly leave. I am not saying that they are even remotely similar, or at least trying to. I was more trying to bring it into something that he could relate to on a more personal level.

As to the original question, I don't really think that there is too big be a connection. I honestly think that the bigger problem with the Palestine/Israel conflict is that everyone keeps getting involved. The UN, the US, etc. If there is to ever an end, I think that they would need to work together and come to it themselves.

I think native Americans migrated here from Asia, but that's a different thread. I also agree there is a big difference. The 1st settlers took the land that was never theirs. I also say a tape once where Arafat, if i spelled his name right, said there would never be piece until that last jew was dead. Pretty scary.

I do think that this whole thing is scary, and that some of the people on both sides are very out there. I remember that when Arafat was in the hospital before his death. One of my history teachers, who had spent time and taught in Israel went out drinking because he thought it was such a good thing. I think that's partly because of the fact that he had to deal with some of his students deaths, among other things.

 

[benjosh]

I find it interesting that the LDS faction (except for Benjosh) is strangely quiet on issues of native Americans. Is it not your opinion that native Americans were origionally Israelites?

John63 I see that you are from Maine. Are you familiar with the history of Jonesport, Maine. Joseph Smith encouraged Geroge Adams to colonize Palestine in arounf 1844. George Adams believing as Smith did that the the Jews (Judah) would regather according to the prophets, literally moved houses from Jonesport and started a colony in Jaffa.

Reed Holmes, of the RLDS traces his family history to that colony and has written a book entitled, Dreamers of Zion. That show that Joseph Smith was well rounded in his understanding of BIble prophecy and committed to Israel.

ANd, the Native Americans were considered of the tribe of Manasseh.


BenJosh

 

[opensoul7]

benjosh and john 63,(off topic)
I was told recently that either smith or young or both were members of the Freemasons , and because of that Utah ended up being the beehive state , wich is symbolic of freemasonry.Seeing as you are both on opposite sides of this question could you shed any light on it ? This is all hearsay and I have not verified any of it , just thought I would ask.

 

[Katzpur]

benjosh and john 63,(off topic)
I was told recently that either smith or young or both were members of the Freemasons , and because of that Utah ended up being the beehive state , wich is symbolic of freemasonry.Seeing as you are both on opposite sides of this question could you shed any light on it ? This is all hearsay and I have not verified any of it , just thought I would ask.

I'm not Benjosh or John63 (in case you didn't notice), but Joseph Smith was a Mason at one time. I don't think Brigham Young was, but I might be wrong. However, the Beehive (Utah's state emblem) is supposed to stand for Industry. It has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

 

[opensoul7]

Well the info is welcome from whever it comes , thanks katzpur!
Yes the beehive is a symbol of industry , and is also used in freemasonry for similiar meaning. htpp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/bees .html there is more on the net but just a quick find .So could it have a deeper or dual meaning for the state.

 

[opensoul7]

Katzpur ,
just looked up some things , started a new thread please give me your input , thanks.