The Anti-Semitic Card

[Christian Gnosis]

I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.

 

[Alceste]

There are a lot of Jewish PR organizations, think tanks, lobbyists, etc, whose raison d'etre is becoming completely hysterical at the faintest hint of criticism of Israel, Zionism or Judaism. There are also a lot of otherwise normal people who take their cues on how to react to reasonable criticism of Israel, Zionism or Judaism from these organizations.

Personally, I think the god described in the old testament is completely deranged. Not "evil" exactly - just incomprehensibly barbaric. I have deep contempt for the idea of being "god's chosen people" too. And I don't think Israel should be squeezing everybody's balls so hard in Palestine all the time. So, according to some ninnies I bump into, I am a raging antisemite myself, regardless of how many Jewish friends I have.

But what can you do?

*shrug*

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Yeah since Gnostics believe Jesus and the Apostles were the founders of our philosophy, and they were Jews. By that token are Jesus and the apostles anti-semites?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Jews, like everyone else, have a range of ideas, attitudes, and political stances that rage from the excellent to the diabolical.

We have a word for disliking Jews and things Jewish ... anti-Semitic

However we do not have a similar word for any other group of people.
This in itself indicates the nature of the problem.

I suspect that the Jews are over sensitive.

In the past, peoples, nations and tribes have been completely obliterated.
perhaps the present Jewish attitude, has something to do with the fact that the holocaust failed.

In England at much the same time as the Jewish temple was finally destroyed and the people were dispersed. The british were a mix of Tribes Like the Jews under Roman Rule, finally the Anglo Saxons were replaced by Normans. Within a hundred years or so the Anglo Saxons were a mere memory. Those that remained were at the bottom of society and were rapidly losing their identity to inter breading.

Today few families can trace their ancestry even to the Anglo Saxons, and would never call themselves that. We are a totally mongrel people.

By comparison, The Jews do not see themselves as mongrel, which they undoubtedly now are, but as a chosen people.

In most Nations the Natives are any one borne there or naturalised.
A Jew is more difficult to describe. There is a religious/national/tribal symbiosis unlike any other.

 

[EverChanging]

I don't believe your perception of the god described in the Torah makes you anti-Semitic.

I also wouldn't assume that a literal understanding of the Torah or its god is necessary to Judaism.

 

[Enoughie]

I don't see how criticizing the god of the Jewish Bible is antisemitic. No more than criticizing the god of the Quran is Islamophobic.

I've heard one person describe criticism of the N.T. as "psychological rape" for her (while at the same time that person was claiming that the Jewish beliefs are not being criticized enough).

I guess some people are just over sensitive when it comes to criticizing their own religion. I don't think this is exclusive to Jews.


_____________________
Geopolitics.us - Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[ellenjanuary]

We have a word for disliking Jews and things Jewish ... anti-Semitic

However we do not have a similar word for any other group of people.
This in itself indicates the nature of the problem.

I suspect that the Jews are over sensitive.

I personally believe that it is because the Jews sold the "yahweh technology" to the Romans for the right of usury - which people all over the world subliminally recognize as selling out god. Yet, my Gwynnies claims to be half-Jewish, and there are some intriguing Jews on this forum, so my natural anti-Semitic tendencies are kept in check.

 

[LuisDantas]

I guess technically criticism of Jewish culture in general is indeed anti-semitism.

It is still weird that "anti-semitism" is supposedly such a serious thing while people are free to criticize, say, French foreign policy ("anti-galicism", anyone?), American economic policy ("anti-americanism", that old tired hat, almost as abused as "anti-semitism") or, why not, the Palestinian Authority ("anti-Palestinianism", I suppose).

Why single out "anti-semitism" as some sort of crime while the others are apparently just criticism?

 

[Flankerl]

Personally, I think the god described in the old testament is completely deranged. Not "evil" exactly - just incomprehensibly barbaric. I have deep contempt for the idea of being "god's chosen people" too. And I don't think Israel should be squeezing everybody's balls so hard in Palestine all the time. So, according to some ninnies I bump into, I am a raging antisemite myself, regardless of how many Jewish friends I have.

Wait what? Why contempt for the idea of the chosen people? It has no downside to you so why the contempt? 613 laws vs 7 laws. I can clearly see why a non-jew should feel contempt. Though no one is stopping you to live after those 613 laws.

And what has the state of Israel to do with this?

I suspect that the Jews are over sensitive.

Did we invent the hive mind for humans? You know whats not nice, "the jews". Like we think all the same...



What a weird thread.

 

[fallingblood]

I think it partially starts when you start saying your beliefs are true, and you claim that the Jewish God is a demon god, who put a curse on them. It may not be anti-semitic, and I wouldn't call it that, but it does spread hatred through ignorance.

I also think that some of the reason for people being weary of anti-semitism though is because it is still stuck in many people's minds with the atrocity of the Holocaust. It's still relatively fresh.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I've found that anti-semites often take issue with the concept of anti-semitism.

I know, it sounds totally bizarre, but it's true.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wait what? Why contempt for the idea of the chosen people? It has no downside to you so why the contempt? 613 laws vs 7 laws. I can clearly see why a non-jew should feel contempt. Though no one is stopping you to live after those 613 laws.

That is not the point. I can see where Alceste is coming from.

The idea of a "chosen people" is indeed boiling full of downsides for very much everyone. I wonder why why claim otherwise. It is, after all, kind of an obviously lousy idea. All people think of themselves as "special" at some point, and that is precisely why all people have a duty to let go of that childish egocentrism.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

To criticise Jews or Jewishness is thought anti-semitic
I can only be semi-anti-semitic as I am half Jewish.
And I have no problem criticising anyone.
If appropriate.

 

[ellenjanuary]

That is not the point. I can see where Alceste is coming from.

The idea of a "chosen people" is indeed boiling full of downsides for very much everyone. I wonder why why claim otherwise. It is, after all, kind of an obviously lousy idea. All people think of themselves as "special" at some point, and that is precisely why all people have a duty to let go of that childish egocentrism.

Yes it is. Especially when such includes a "chosen land."

 

[Christian Gnosis]

I don't see how criticizing the god of the Jewish Bible is antisemitic. No more than criticizing the god of the Quran is Islamophobic.

Exactly, it isn't.

 

[fallingblood]

Criticizing and attacking are different though. Also, a criticism based on ignorance, is different from just criticism.

Calling the Jewish God evil, or a demon god, can be seen as an uninformed attack on their beliefs, and in essence, an attack on them. Especially considering that it is completely ignoring the Jewish perspective, and their understanding of Hebrew scripture. That being so, it is intolerant.

Now, questioning or critiquing the Jewish God, if done in a reasonable fashion, there is no problem. Asking, why does it seem as if the Jewish God is evil, and then respecting the answers, is different than saying, you believe in an evil God, and thus follow an evil God, (which isn't far from calling them evil).

I really don't see why anyone needs to criticize other people's view of God though. I can't prove that the God I believe in is true. I don't even want to try. As far as I know, I could be completely mistaken, and there could be no God. Jews could be wrong, Gnostics could be wrong, etc. The fact is, no one can prove that their idea of God is correct, and thus seems a little ridiculous to attack others understanding of God then; especially since your idea of God could be well off base.

 

[Nepenthe]

The Anti-Semitic card? Man, Yu-Gi-Oh has changed since I played it...

 

[Flankerl]

That is not the point. I can see where Alceste is coming from.

The idea of a "chosen people" is indeed boiling full of downsides for very much everyone. I wonder why why claim otherwise. It is, after all, kind of an obviously lousy idea. All people think of themselves as "special" at some point, and that is precisely why all people have a duty to let go of that childish egocentrism.

But you do realise that there is nothing in judaism that favors a jew over a gentile right? Overall its more difficult to be a (oh i hate the term but i will use it) religious jew and be on the same step as a righteous gentile.

Should we change the words? How about we are cookies while gentiles are muffins. I would bet that some people would even take that as an offense.

 

[EverChanging]

Reading over the thread, I must agree that Pagan Buddhist's assertion about the Jewish god is very harsh. It's one thing to criticize a god one believes doesn't exist, but asserting that Jews worship a real demon god is very extreme and presumptuous. It's also very ignorant. Most Jewish people are not literalists, and from my own studies of Judaism and the formation of the Torah, the Jews have a very long history of nuanced interpretation and re-interpretation of their holy texts. I'm much more inclined to listen to what the Jewish people have to say about the interpretation of their own holy texts than overly literal-Christians, especially Gnostic Christians relying on esoteric texts that seem to me even more far removed from Judaism than the Christian scriptures.

 

[LuisDantas]

But you do realise that there is nothing in judaism that favors a jew over a gentile right?

No, I don't know about that.

It may be the truth, but having a myth of being the chosen people of God sure makes that considerably hard to happen.

Overall its more difficult to be a (oh i hate the term but i will use it) religious jew and be on the same step as a righteous gentile.

Should we change the words? How about we are cookies while gentiles are muffins. I would bet that some people would even take that as an offense.

You are correct.