The Argument "For" and "Against" Creative Intelligence (Human or Divine)

[Thief]

I say...we are all headed for the grave.....
and most won't survive the last breath.

You need be spiritually minded to stand from your corpse....
to evade eternal darkness.

 

[Sapiens]

I say...we are all headed for the grave.....
and most won't survive the last breath.

You need be spiritually minded to stand from your corpse....
to evade eternal darkness.

So you believe, so you believe, but that's your self-inflicted cross to bear, not mine.

 

[Thief]

And your self imposed eternal solitude is yours.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

ID arguments boil down to "THINGS ARE COMPLEX AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY THEREFORE SOMETHING ALL POWERFUL AND MATCHES THE SAME DEFINITION AS "GOD" MADE IT!"

Evolution doesn't make claims towards origins usually but our basic understanding brought about by science is this tiny scope of knowledge that we do have and guesses at what we don't. For things we simply do not understand they remain a mystery till we have evidences to stand our theory on. The only exceptions to this are theoretical sciences that hope to one day be supported. Though none of them are considered fact till they do.

 

[Thief]

ID arguments boil down to "THINGS ARE COMPLEX AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY THEREFORE SOMETHING ALL POWERFUL AND MATCHES THE SAME DEFINITION AS "GOD" MADE IT!"

Evolution doesn't make claims towards origins usually but our basic understanding brought about by science is this tiny scope of knowledge that we do have and guesses at what we don't. For things we simply do not understand they remain a mystery till we have evidences to stand our theory on. The only exceptions to this are theoretical sciences that hope to one day be supported. Though none of them are considered fact till they do.

More like....some forms of life are too complex to have formed at random.
Something Greater had an influence.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

More like....some forms of life are too complex to have formed at random.
Something Greater had an influence.

If that is true then it would be a tremendous argument. However we need to explain why it is far to complex to have come about naturally and explain why the current explanation is wrong. However ID fails to do this and simply pleas to ignorance about how it is made.

 

[Thief]

If that is true then it would be a tremendous argument. However we need to explain why it is far to complex to have come about naturally and explain why the current explanation is wrong. However ID fails to do this and simply pleas to ignorance about how it is made.

I did see a documentary of explanation.
It displayed in more ways than one the scheme of things to form a sequence.

DNA is very specific in it's chain of chemistry.

For that chemistry to form the initial sequence.....and that sequence to then have on hand all that it takes to reproduce itself....on the mark....
the odds are beyond numbers.

I believe in a Power sufficient to create all of the universe.
It would be unreasonable to limit the scope of that Power that It cannot manipulate chemistry on a small scale and quantity.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I did see a documentary of explanation.
It displayed in more ways than one the scheme of things to form a sequence.

DNA is very specific in it's chain of chemistry.

For that chemistry to form the initial sequence.....and that sequence to then have on hand all that it takes to reproduce itself....on the mark....
the odds are beyond numbers.

I believe in a Power sufficient to create all of the universe.
It would be unreasonable to limit the scope of that Power that It cannot manipulate chemistry on a small scale and quantity.

Actually its the opposite. DNA in and of itself is rather simple. There are only four chemical compounds that arrange in different ways that probably attached randomly and the only ones to have survived till now. Its only complex now after billions of years. Billions of years of trial and error from very simple set of four chemicals. An ocean of chemicals

 

[Thief]

Actually its the opposite. DNA in and of itself is rather simple. There are only four chemical compounds that arrange in different ways that probably attached randomly and the only ones to have survived till now. Its only complex now after billions of years. Billions of years of trial and error from very simple set of four chemicals. An ocean of chemicals

The ORDER of that sequence is critical....and of length.

Imagine trying to play Bach's fugue and toccata in Dminor.....
while not knowing anything about pipe organs.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The ORDER of that sequence is critical....and of length.

Imagine trying to play Bach's fugue and toccata in Dminor.....
while not knowing anything about pipe organs.

It is critical at this point but it may not have been critical in the begning and the length has extended over the years. As I said it is highly possible that it was formed out of very simple chemical compounds that mixed and matched over billions of years.

 

[Thief]

It is critical at this point but it may not have been critical in the begning and the length has extended over the years. As I said it is highly possible that it was formed out of very simple chemical compounds that mixed and matched over billions of years.

I would love to see that moment.....when the chemistry gelled....
and then reproduced!
(played to the hilt in a Star Trek episode!)

But the reality is straightforward.
ALL of the chain must be assembled just right.
THEN the will to reproduce must also be installed.
Chemistry moves in reaction to chemistry......however.....

Reproduction is a significant indication of LIFE!

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I would love to see that moment.....when the chemistry gelled....
and then reproduced!
(played to the hilt in a Star Trek episode!)

But the reality is straightforward.
ALL of the chain must be assembled just right.
THEN the will to reproduce must also be installed.
Chemistry moves in reaction to chemistry......however.....

Reproduction is a significant indication of LIFE!

Reproduction is in fact an incredibly important aspect of life. Though DNA doesn't actually have to be pieced together "just right". That is a misconception. Its far simpler than that.

And we have chemical processes that reproduce other chemical chains. This isn't terribly uncommon either.

 

[Thief]

Reproduction is in fact an incredibly important aspect of life. Though DNA doesn't actually have to be pieced together "just right". That is a misconception. Its far simpler than that.

And we have chemical processes that reproduce other chemical chains. This isn't terribly uncommon either.

Not buying that.
The variables are a very small percentile in the dna chain.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Not buying that.
The variables are a very small percentile in the dna chain.

Not buying what? That DNA is very simple? And the chains themselves are complex but not impossible but rather inevitable given the chains they are built from?

Nothing out of that even halts for a second thought in logical following. What exactly are you not getting and what exactly is so difficult to understand?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not buying what? That DNA is very simple?
...

Well that would do for a starters..
I don't see 'life' as simple at all!

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Well that would do for a starters..
I don't see 'life' as simple at all!

That is fine. You don't have to. But do you see how DNA itself is simple? Can you break it down? The maze is complicated but the bricks are simple.

 

[Thief]

Not buying what? That DNA is very simple? And the chains themselves are complex but not impossible but rather inevitable given the chains they are built from?

Nothing out of that even halts for a second thought in logical following. What exactly are you not getting and what exactly is so difficult to understand?

It's not simple.
repetition isn't helping you.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's not simple.
repetition isn't helping you.

How is it not simple?

Four chemical compounds that when bonded make a chain. Its chemistry but beyond that it isn't complex. Replication happens with organic compounds. Eventually different chemicals add, drop or switch with existing chains to make an ever more complex chain. This couldn't be simpler. Literally.

 

[McBell]

This couldn't be simpler. Literally.

oh contraire

"GodDidIt".​

 

[Thief]

How is it not simple?

Four chemical compounds that when bonded make a chain. Its chemistry but beyond that it isn't complex. Replication happens with organic compounds. Eventually different chemicals add, drop or switch with existing chains to make an ever more complex chain. This couldn't be simpler. Literally.

So you wouldn't know something 'alive' as compared to a chemical reaction.....otherwise.

(it's the sequence that counts)