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The Argument "For" and "Against" Creative Intelligence (Human or Divine)

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
If abiogenesis happened before, why hasn't there been any recent cases of a living creature being created from a nonliving thing?
How do you know there hasn't? We've not noticed it happening anywhere but the scope and ability of our observations are massively limited, especially in the context of the whole Universe.

Assuming it is true, it's also likely to be an extremely rare event and so the chance of it happening twice on the same planet within the cosmologically short period between its first happening on Earth and today is very, very low. It's like someone on your street winning the lottery jackpot last year and you being surprised nobody else on your street has won it since.

Doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that consciousness appears in things that deal with genes and reproduction so that not only will there be something to admire this universe, but to guarantee that there will be more?
Too coincidental, no. It's perfectly plausible for conscious life to generate independently. Of course it's possible for there to be/have been some form of intelligent creator too, though that does lead inevitably to the question of where that consciousness came from. It really just pointlessly shifts the problem back one step.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
What? Don't you think that people have 'creative intelligence', for example?

How can somebody NOT see creative intelligence whatsoever in the universe, then?!? :)

I've already explained how. Read the OP of this thread. The Darwinian principles (of random variation and natural selection) not only can be employed to explain the apparent design we see in biological organisms (e.g. eyeballs), but it can also be employed (and has been employed) to explain the apparent design we see in human artifacts (e.g. pocket watches).
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, I did. I am saying that your argument is purely esthetical and dissolves once the actual data are examined.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Well it would have existing life to compete with, which I think makes it more difficult for new life to arise.
Understandable. But still we have no traces of anything arising, regardless of its survival.

Also, we don't know the likelihood of life emerging. It may only be probable enough to where it generally only occures on a planet once out of several million planets.

But given the vastness of the universe, it practically guarantees life happening somewhere sometime.

I agree but that is too open ended to use as an answer, in my opinion.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
No, I did. I am saying that your argument is purely esthetical and dissolves once the actual data are examined.

I don't see anything in the above that qualifies as a counterargument to mine. I don't believe you actually read my argument.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If abiogenesis happened before, why hasn't there been any recent cases of a living creature being created from a nonliving thing?
My guess is that we haven't yet seen the same conditions that may have brought about abiogenesis.

Doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that consciousness appears in things that deal with genes and reproduction so that not only will there be something to admire this universe, but to guarantee that there will be more?
And, see? This banana was made to fit right into my hand...
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
For one thing, why do you think there haven't? How would you even know? One of the main reasons why the origin of life was so meaningful is because life reproduces. Once lifeforms became widespread, it became quite a challenge to notice if somehow a second abiogenesis event somehow turned out.

I'm not talking about a second one. If there were multiple abiogenesis's the question still applies why we haven't observed one lately.

Then there is the matter of environment. Abiogenesis as we hypothetise it currently is basically a lot of random floating organic molecules associating themselves into patterns that have the property of reproduction. As a random event, it was that much more likely to happen when there were not so many established lifeforms tying up the biomass.

How exactly do lifeforms tie up the biomass? Where do these "random floating organic molecules" come from? Certainly there must be more from where it came from?

To make an illustration, it is a bit like having thousands of dice and lots of time to throw them all just because. For whatever reason it turns out that whenever a dozen dice in a row all turn 6 side up they become an autonomous entity and are separated from the poll. Even more than that, they actually grab nearby dice and turn them 6 side up by their turn, thereby creating competing autonomous "diceforms".

That's not really like it at all. The way lifeforms create other lifeforms isn't like taking parts and putting them together.

Once such a pattern is established, soon enough the uninvolved dice become so few that it is very difficult for a second origin event to develop on its own.

As a related consideration, there has just not been enough time since the development of life for us to expect finding a second abiogenesis event (even if we knew where to look).

There hasn't been any sort of example throughout history, and we are a global species. Plenty of time in all of this space but we haven't found one single example.


No, not at all. Between the plenty of evidence that life is indeed very coincidental and the realization that we can only perceive things once some form of consciousness has been established, it is in fact a bit difficult to imagine what you are talking about.

What?

Come to think of it, I do not know what you are talking about. What are those "things that deal with genes and reproduction"? Living beings in general? Human beings?

Living beings in general.

Also, you seem to be assuming a purpose ("so that ... will there be something"), and we have no evidence for any.
I hoped nobody noticed that I chimed it in there. But I didn't mean to imply it as a meaning or purpose. That is simply what happens, whether or not it is meaningful. That's what I was describing.

Sorry for the late reply my laptop is VERY slow and anoying me. I type a sentence and it appears after I type it...
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..it can also be employed (and has been employed) to explain the apparent design we see in human artifacts (e.g. pocket watches).

Yes, yes, yes .. 'watchmaker anology' & subjectivity etc. etc.

But you avoided my question:

Do you think that people have 'creative intelligence' or not?!?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you know there hasn't? We've not noticed it happening anywhere but the scope and ability of our observations are massively limited, especially in the context of the whole Universe.

The whole universe is out of question, we're limited to the observed universe. If abiogenesis happened on this very planet how is it that we cannot find any example in nature that can recreate the events to cause it? Maybe not observe another arising of life forms or animation from inanimate objects, but situations that would cause it at least.

We've come across nothing that suggests living organisms were built from a series of nonliving things, or even that they can be.

Assuming it is true, it's also likely to be an extremely rare event and so the chance of it happening twice on the same planet within the cosmologically short period between its first happening on Earth and today is very, very low. It's like someone on your street winning the lottery jackpot last year and you being surprised nobody else on your street has won it since.

I'm glad you're aware of how rare this must be. And it just so happens that one lucky strike of the match caused one planet to be packed full of life surrounded by stillborn planets without a single hint of life (exception of Mars being possible to have contained life).

coincidental, no. It's perfectly plausible for conscious life to generate independently. Of course it's possible for there to be/have been some form of intelligent creator too, though that does lead inevitably to the question of where that consciousness came from. It really just pointlessly shifts the problem back one step.
I never said it was impossible, but there is so much coincidence that I see it unreasonable to suggest it was independently generated. Of course there's always that one percent, slim chance. There's no evidence to prove it wasn't a coincidence, that God made life here, that's true. But to say it is a coincidence just doesn't feel right in the mouth for me. All of those factors that added up to make you and I sit here, two separate consciousnesses within a very complex universe, conversing on whether or not we are here for a reason, all of those factors are very coincidental. Of course life can arise from non-life, after countless generations we have very intelligent primates that develop communication, language, culture, and begin to question the world around us. Through thousands of years of trial and error, cause and effect, action and reaction, we made a final leap to quantum mechanics, computers, and internet to where I can communicate with you from any part of the world and still we ask if this is all just a coincidence. It seems unlikely to me, but then again it just seems that way.

And at the very beginning we did come from nothing. Something did had to have come from nothing, because something coming from something would defeat the purpose of the question. There was a time before time where time did not exist, where non-existence ceased to exist until potential energy created the universe. I agree with you. At some point there was a point where 0 became 1, where the meaning to life was meaninglessly created.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
Understandable. But still we have no traces of anything arising, regardless of its survival.

Any rudimentary self-replicated molecules, that would otherwise evolve into what we consider life, would likely be prevented from doing so from existing life; life that has been here for billions of years and is already vastly more fine-tuned to harness the resources in it's surroundings.

I agree but that is too open ended to use as an answer, in my opinion.

I'm not sure what that means. An answer is an answer.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
My guess is that we haven't yet seen the same conditions that may have brought about abiogenesis.

The conditions must be just right, very deterministic. On a planet that first has conditions to create life and then conditions to preserve it


And, see? This banana was made to fit right into my hand...
Hehe... I suppose I walked into that one.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Understandable. But still we have no traces of anything arising, regardless of its survival.
We've seen metabolic systems arising, and we know amino acids (more than we can find on Earth) can be found in space naturally.

The thing is, if the universe is "fine tuned" for life, life should be abundant in the universe. There might not be our kind of life that we recognize, but it should be out there. The image of the vast, empty, dead space shouldn't be true if the universe is perfect for life.

If we, the human race on planet Earth, is the only living organisms in the whole wide universe, then that would be the miracle that necessitates some external influence to come about.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Any rudimentary self-replicated molecules, that would otherwise evolve into what we consider life, would likely be prevented from doing so from existing life; life that has been here for billions of years and is already vastly more fine-tuned to harness the resources in it's surroundings.
If these resources are present, they can be used, regardless of what other lifeforms use them.

And obviously: If they are not present, there lies a contradiction, a lifeform cannot carry on.


I'm not sure what that means. An answer is an answer.
I basically said: There is large probability life can and has formed elsewhere in the universe due to the vastness of space, like you said.

According to you, abiogenesis happens elsewhere. According to me, God creates life elsewhere through means of what we consider natural, for a reason that is supernatural. According to some: God makes life from smiles and cupcakes.

We haven't observed any creation/generation of life in this vastness, so claiming either of them is just as mute as each other.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
We've seen metabolic systems arising, and we know amino acids (more than we can find on Earth) can be found in space naturally.

The thing is, if the universe is "fine tuned" for life, life should be abundant in the universe. There might not be our kind of life that we recognize, but it should be out there. The image of the vast, empty, dead space shouldn't be true if the universe is perfect for life.

If we, the human race on planet Earth, is the only living organisms in the whole wide universe, then that would be the miracle that necessitates some external influence to come about.
My friend, I'm not trying to say the universe is fine tuned for life. All that I'm arguing is: The universe is well aware of what it is doing.

We are alive because God, the universe, intended us to be. As much so as it intended the creation of non-living things.
 
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