The Argument for God(Or Against God) Is Never a Logical One.

[ChristineES]

There is one thing I wish to say- people can't prove or disprove God with logic. For one thing, no answers are absolute, save mathematics.

In Mathematics 1+1=2; nothing we do or say can change that fact. But regarding all other answers- they are subjective:
Take the statement "Red is a nice color". That statement is neither true nor false. Red can be a nice color- for a dress, a rose, a valentine. But blood is red, and it isn't nice to see someone bleeding.
I believe in God. Logically, someone can give reasons why there is no God, but for some reason, that logic doesn't seem to effect me or the other theists here. Is it because theists have no logic- no. There are plenty of theists who have a logical mind. Is it because theists are irrational? No. Most theists are very rational people. (And yes, I know that some theists are irrational and illogical).
And I will say this, even though it probably will be ridiculed by someone or more- God is beyond logic. God wouldn't be bound by the logic of the earth since God would not be of earth.

 

[Engyo]

That's whay I don't try to disprove god to anyone else.

 

[dust1n]

Nope, but you can make perfectly logical arguments dictating the potential characteristics of God as logical or illogical.

 

[Tathagata]

There's no such thing as "beyond logic" or subjective truth.

Subjective opinion is about preference, not truth. "I like the color red" is not a statement of fact about reality, but rather how a person reacts to or feels about something.

The claim that God exists is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. Either God exists or he doesn't, despite whatever people believe or think.

And the claim that God is beyond logic is nonsensical. Logic is the tool we use to determine if something is true or not. No one is claiming that he is "bound by logic," because logic is how we evaluate truth.

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[ChristineES]

There's no such thing as "beyond logic" or subjective truth.

Subjective opinion is about preference, not truth. "I like the color red" is not a statement of fact about reality, but rather how a person reacts to or feels about something.

The claim that God exists is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. Either God exists or he doesn't, despite whatever people believe or think.

And the claim that God is beyond logic is nonsensical. Logic is the tool we use to determine if something is true or not. No one is claiming that he is "bound by logic," because logic is how we evaluate truth.

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Thank you for your opinion.

 

[ATAT]

I like the color red" is not a statement of fact about reality, but rather how a person reacts to or feels about something.

How a person reacts or feels about something is a fact.

So, too, if I like red, then I really like red.

That would be a fact.

And the claim that God is beyond logic is nonsensical.

It depends on what someone means by the word, 'God'.

Some agnostics define "God" as being beyond human understanding, hence, there's no point to believing in God because if you think you know something about God, then you don't understand what the word, 'God' means.

Some historical philosophers write at extreme length on how you can only know what God is not.

I think it can be a legitimate statement to say that God is beyond logic, especially if one defines 'God' in a radically different way, such as how one feels.

So, if one defines God as being a state of feeling, then "God" is a fact for them, beyond logic.

I like chocolate. That's a fact. And there's no arguing about it. That means that a list of proofs in logic is not as strong as the simple fact that I like chocolate.

I teach my students that once you use the word, 'want', be very wary of someone trying to ask you 'Why?'

If you answer the question, then you emotionally give up a very powerful position of observation and degrade to a debate about a fact that only you can observe. Once you're in the debate, submitting yourself to needing to bring proofs, then you're sunk, because your claims should be the only proof that matter and you've forgotten that you're just making an observation that only you can observe.

 

[ChristineES]

The claim that God exists is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. Either God exists or he doesn't, despite whatever people believe or think.


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That statement is totally false, to me. And it just because I believe in God. Just because you don't believe in God does not mean that God does not exist. Because he doesn't fit into your reality, doesn't mean He doesn't fit into my reality. Just because logic disproves God for you, does not mean that it disproves God for me.

Just keep that in mind, friend.

 

[Kathryn]

I like to look at issues like this in this manner.

Take a piece of paper. Draw a small circle in the middle of it. This circle represents all that you know to this point.

Then draw a larger circle around that circle. This circle represents all that all humans know to this point.

Would anyone argue against the fact that there is truth outside of both those circles - truth that is not yet known? Humans discover new truths daily - and disgard things that were formerly thought to be true daily as well. Sometimes we have to go back to what we've disgarded and consider that as true again, based on new discoveries and experiences.

The well of truth and knowledge is so huge that it's inconceivable that we as individuals, let alone as the whole of humanity, would be able to claim that we KNOW even 5% of the truths of the universe, life, the origins of our earth and solar system, and the hereafter.

This seems very logical to me - an earnest seeker of truth.

 

[Tathagata]

That statement is totally false, to me. And it just because I believe in God. Just because you don't believe in God does not mean that God does not exist. Because he doesn't fit into your reality, doesn't mean He doesn't fit into my reality. Just because logic disproves God for you, does not mean that it disproves God for me.

Just keep that in mind, friend.

As Jean-Paul Sartre said, "existence precedes essence." The existence of God does not depend on my beliefs nor does it depend on yours. Existence will be what it is no matter what we believe about God.


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[Kathryn]

What we believe in no way determines what is actually true.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

The claim that God exists is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. Either God exists or he doesn't, despite whatever people believe or think.


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I agree 100% Tathagata. If God existed as a matter of opinion he would not be Absolute. The ultimate truth is Absolute, or true at all times.

 

[jonman122]

one thing that i find funny is how all of gods miracles get less and less over time, first he created the universe, and then the earth/sun/man/animals and so on, and then it went down even lower to flooding the world, down eventually to have to show himself only in the form of a burning bush, down to the point that he could not affect the world at all and had to go in the form of Jesus, and now he cannot even show himself in a way such as that.

If something isn't logical and you believe it to be true, then you are being dishonest with not only yourself, but also with anyone you assert your belief to. If god is unexplainable and beyond logic, then how can you even comprehend or even begin to understand what he is, and still be honest with yourself? If he is beyond logic, then he is so far beyond your understanding that even asserting that he is a "just and honest" god is an outright lie, as those terms are based on logically assessing a person and how they react to different situations. If he was beyond logic, he would not have been able to interact with moses through the bush, or interact with earth in any way let alone create it.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

one thing that i find funny is how all of gods miracles get less and less over time, first he created the universe, and then the earth/sun/man/animals and so on, and then it went down even lower to flooding the world, down eventually to have to show himself only in the form of a burning bush, down to the point that he could not affect the world at all and had to go in the form of Jesus, and now he cannot even show himself in a way such as that.

Again, this is only true for CHRISTIANITY, not all religions.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That statement is totally false, to me. And it just because I believe in God. Just because you don't believe in God does not mean that God does not exist. Because he doesn't fit into your reality, doesn't mean He doesn't fit into my reality. Just because logic disproves God for you, does not mean that it disproves God for me.

Just keep that in mind, friend.

You've entirely missed the point of what that poster was saying. The issue is not one of interpretations or personal belief: the fact is that either God exists or God does not exist - there is no in-between. Now, whether or not you choose to believe God does exist is irrelevant and neither adds nor subtracts credibility to the notion of God. This logic works exactly the same for people who choose not to believe in a God.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I like to look at issues like this in this manner.

Take a piece of paper. Draw a small circle in the middle of it. This circle represents all that you know to this point.

Then draw a larger circle around that circle. This circle represents all that all humans know to this point.

Would anyone argue against the fact that there is truth outside of both those circles - truth that is not yet known? Humans discover new truths daily - and disgard things that were formerly thought to be true daily as well. Sometimes we have to go back to what we've disgarded and consider that as true again, based on new discoveries and experiences.

The well of truth and knowledge is so huge that it's inconceivable that we as individuals, let alone as the whole of humanity, would be able to claim that we KNOW even 5% of the truths of the universe, life, the origins of our earth and solar system, and the hereafter.

This seems very logical to me - an earnest seeker of truth.

With due respect: What does this have to do with the assertion that there is or is not a God?

 

[jonman122]

Again, this is only true for CHRISTIANITY, not all religions.

the poster is a follower of christ (christian) and so that is the god i'm going to deal with here, as i've said before i'm not going to go over every single different god ever conceived every single time i post about how illogical gods are. It is illogical to do so.

 

[Tarheeler]

Nope, but you can make perfectly logical arguments dictating the potential characteristics of God as logical or illogical.

But first we have to determine what are the potential characteristics are, and that's pretty much impossible in itself; and then we have to determine what exactly those characteristics actually entail, which is just as big a job.

I mean, just because we say God might be omnipresent, does that mean that God inhabits all things, or does it mean that God is everywhere?

Each religion has its own definition, and within each one you'll find multiple views of that definition.

And that's what makes this soooo fun!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

There is one thing I wish to say- people can't prove or disprove God with logic. For one thing, no answers are absolute, save mathematics.

In Mathematics 1+1=2; nothing we do or say can change that fact. But regarding all other answers- they are subjective:

I know it's a bit off-topic, but I disagree: mathematics are subjective.

That is all.

 

[Penumbra]

There is one thing I wish to say- people can't prove or disprove God with logic. For one thing, no answers are absolute, save mathematics.

In Mathematics 1+1=2; nothing we do or say can change that fact. But regarding all other answers- they are subjective:
Take the statement "Red is a nice color". That statement is neither true nor false. Red can be a nice color- for a dress, a rose, a valentine. But blood is red, and it isn't nice to see someone bleeding.
I believe in God. Logically, someone can give reasons why there is no God, but for some reason, that logic doesn't seem to effect me or the other theists here. Is it because theists have no logic- no. There are plenty of theists who have a logical mind. Is it because theists are irrational? No. Most theists are very rational people. (And yes, I know that some theists are irrational and illogical).
And I will say this, even though it probably will be ridiculed by someone or more- God is beyond logic. God wouldn't be bound by the logic of the earth since God would not be of earth.

No, not all other answers are subjective. There are objective claims outside of mathematics.

Believing in something does not call it forth into external existence, and neither does disbelief cause something to disappear from existence. If someone believes something that is not true, it may "exist" in their mind, or may exist as a character, or may exist as an influential belief, but it will not exist externally to the believers.

And logic does not exist only on this Earth. Logic is involved with the universe. And without logic, even the claim that God wouldn't be bound by logic is a nonsensical statement, since no statement with meaning can be said without logic.

-Lyn

 

[Akshara Dasa]

I know it's a bit off-topic, but I disagree: mathematics are subjective.

That is all.

Woah, I have never heard this before. May I hear why? Im quite impressed that someone has come to this conclusion and is willing to express it!