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The argument of irrelevance

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
just 60 seconds of coffeine deprived brain cell activity.....

1) The existence of something should make a measurable difference to it not existing.
2) Given its supposed statements in its supposedly holy scriptures there should be measurable things we could expect from Gods existence even in this life.
3) There has not been any measurable difference that makes its existence nessessary.
4) Therefore we might conclude that (so far) (if it exists) that existence is no different than its nonexistence.
5) It therefore is (for now) safe to assume that the question of Gods existence is actually irrelevant and it is safe to treat it as not existing.


Have a free shot ;)
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Is the idea of measurement the pinnacle of human projection?
We seem to have a notion that reality should fit into our way of quantifying and understanding it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How can we measure the difference? Whether we're in a universe
with gods or without gods, we cannot examine the alternative.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One must define exactly what a god is before making any assertive statements about it.
He is:
- He's The Big Guy
- He is never wrong on Jeapardy.
- He watches you 24/7/365.
- He's the one who will fix those clergy who abuse children.
- He has the Bible memorized...the correct one...not the erroneous translations.
- He knows which prophets are bogus & which are da bomb.
- He can create a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it....& then he'll eat that too hot burrito.
- He can solve any math story problem.
- He could fix our economy.
- He invented bacon.
I might have left out a few.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
The fact that there are logical alternatives to the existence of God does not present a reason for believers to abandon their belief nor for unbelievers to continue in their skepticism. This argument should evoke a profound meh. If it does otherwise it's only because the person is strongly disposed to believe in the nonexistence of gods.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
If we can't agree on what god is, or does, or what effects on human life are evidence of god's existence, then it all seems like an intellectual exercise rather than a vital issue to me.
 

it's_sam

Freak of Nature
It does seem like from history that God "deity" had more going on in the world then we do now. This could also be attributed to his will wanting to staisfy that of his children on earth but everyone wants something different. Would he even be able to hear anything through all the buzz if he showed up here with a connection to our thought? It also could have just been the times back then and the availability for groups of people to be a raping, pillaging, and otherwise just nasty to be around. This to me would be the pressence of satan, but if people were seeing God then maybe Satan was veiwed as well. I have grown up in different types of religion and have tried to gain a sense of what demons/devil might be. It seems to me it's something you can't shake or that sticks to you like depression, ego, jealousy, and many other mental illnessess. Jealousy is HUGE in america girls everywhere destroying their bodies to be "as skinny as that girl". Personaly i preffer a healthy body over one that has the same fat/muscle ratio but not bone thin, if you didnt know anarexic women actualy end up with more body fat then a person of normal weight and muscle mass they just lack the later to the point of being malnourished. This may be off-tpoic but thats my thoughts :D
 

Justin Thyme

Child of God
If we use the word "god", there must be some agreement on what it means.

Then Webster has done our job for us. But when it comes down to you or I defining our own individual god then the only thing one can say is, "God is who I serve."

So many faiths do place such limits, eg, not evil, inerrant.

In my faith God has defined Himself by simply stating, "I Am that I Am." That's very ambiguous for a reason.
 

it's_sam

Freak of Nature
I do appoligize for I was in a hurry and did stray from MY point, wich was if you can hold these bad thought and have them change and shape your mind the same could be said for the other side. During the times of the bible this was a reality that this "bad" side could infact become a influencial leader and they wanted to warn others of this in a way that made sense because thought is complicated and they knew that.
 

Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
1) The existence of something should make a measurable difference to it not existing.
2) Given its supposed statements in its supposedly holy scriptures there should be measurable things we could expect from Gods existence even in this life.
3) There has not been any measurable difference that makes its existence nessessary.
4) Therefore we might conclude that (so far) (if it exists) that existence is no different than its nonexistence.
5) It therefore is (for now) safe to assume that the question of Gods existence is actually irrelevant and it is safe to treat it as not existing.


Have a free shot ;)


I appreciate questions like this, even if some others do not. And as Engyo aptly stated, such questions might just be more or less intellectual exercises, but such exercises entertain me, so thank you for posting your thoughts.

Firstly, I would ask why must we assume that the existence of an object should make some noticable and measurable impact somewhere, either on its environment or on other objects? I see two possible alternatives to this assumption:

(1) Perhaps a thing can exist and have no impact on other things whatsoever. I doubt this is likely, but I am inclined to consider it as possible because I have yet to conceive on my own of any conclusive proof to the contrary. I will call this the anti-George Bailey theory. But since you have asserted it is not possible, I would ask that you explain why, if you would.

(2) Perhaps God exists but purposely chooses to conceal his existence. This could be for reasons known only to God. Or it could be as some faithful followers have heretofore proposed, that God wants our belief in him to be a matter of faith. This second option I also find highly unlikely, at least the faith part. Personally, I don't believe a God, if one exists, would place more value in blind faith than empirical evidence, sound reasoning and rational explanations. But, the alternative must be considered at least, or so I think.

Finally, I am going to wrap this up 'cause I didn't intend to get this longwinded. But isn't it also a possibility that God does exist and he has made an observable and measurable impact, however, we humans have simply been incapable of verifying God's handiwork. Obviously, if God does exist and he created all this stuff around us, then we can certainly measure his creation. I think the concept of a divine Prime Mover, a God that set everything in motion but refuses to interact with his creation, is plausible. Again, I have no idea what the reasons for God's intentional remoteness might be, but again I must consider it due to lack of proof that such a proposition is impossible.
 

it's_sam

Freak of Nature
Originally Posted by Revoltingest
If we use the word "god", there must be some agreement on what it means.
Then Webster has done our job for us. But when it comes down to you or I defining our own individual god then the only thing one can say is, "God is who I serve."
I'd like to give an example for this. If two people that lived their lives in the exact same manner "choices, love, family, etc..." and they were standing infront of this man that is unlike every other man that can be seen because his whole body glows from head to toe with pure light. There is no mistaking in the minds of these two men who stands before them. Now one of the "like" men says "hello God" and the other "like" man says "hello Allah" do you feel that this person of pure light is going to care of this indifference? He see's for himself he is unlike every other man and we all know him for what we see in him. Would he then have to choose one to go to hell because of their beleifs that have now at only this one time clashed and he has to satisfy that will in them? I feel like i would wait too and let them work together long enough to figure it out. I feel like specifics have grown into way to much of a problem in the world in the sense that calling the same thing two different names can cause multiple issues. If we know what we see does it matter what others call it?
 
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Zadok

Zadok
As a mathematician I understand the definition of infinite without putting a limit on it.

Part of my definition of G-d is a race vastly superior and advanced compared to man. Thus I find it interesting when someone says there is no such thing as G-d. How arrogant and prejudice is it to believe you are the most advanced intelligence in the entire universe? In all the vastness of this universe how foolish and silly it is to believe man is the best possibility of whatever else there might be. And so they demand proof before they will even consider a possibility?

I find those that do not believe in G-d as even possible rather petty, silly and to be honest very unscientific and uninformed.

Zadok
 
Part of my definition of G-d is a race vastly superior and advanced compared to man. Thus I find it interesting when someone says there is no such thing as G-d. How arrogant and prejudice is it to believe you are the most advanced intelligence in the entire universe? In all the vastness of this universe how foolish and silly it is to believe man is the best possibility of whatever else there might be. And so they demand proof before they will even consider a possibility?

atheism and anthropocentrism are not the same thing. to say 'i have not been presented with appropriate evidence for belief in a god or gods' is not to say 'man is the most advanced and intelligent life form in the universe'. people who dont believe in god do not believe in god, they all have different reasons for it, least likely of which is pure arrogance.

i would love to read some peer reviewed literature on your 'gods are a race of superior life forms' if you want to hand some over. because until then, while we're defining god, i can say that my junior high gym class teacher is god and the only reason you dont believe it is because you can't stand the thought of someone in the universe having better looking calves than you. petty, arrogant, unscientific and uninformed... tisk.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Part of my definition of G-d is a race vastly superior and advanced compared to man. Thus I find it interesting when someone says there is no such thing as G-d. How arrogant and prejudice is it to believe you are the most advanced intelligence in the entire universe?

That's not an atheistic view. But what of your vastly superior race (ie, God)?
Do they think they're the "most advanced intelligence in the entire universe"?
 
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