The awful Education system of the US

[dianaiad]

You won't attract more quality teachers and administrator without paying them more. You need a special kind of people to accept spending tens of thousand of dollars on their education to get a bachelor or master degree to make something like 50K per year. Your average high school teacher is more than smart enough to succeed in acquiring a diploma that will open them a career in which they can earn a lot more. Why would I go teach math when I can earn more doing accounting?

you have a point.

However, most teachers go into the field because they want something other than a fat paycheck.

Not to mention that if you paid us what we were worth, nobody could afford us.

 

[icehorse]

you have a point.

However, most teachers go into the field because they want something other than a fat paycheck.

Not to mention that if you paid us what we were worth, nobody could afford us.

This is SUCH a key point.

We undervalue our education system at our own peril. IF the U.S. doesn't shift its orientation towards truly valuing strong education, we will fall to third-world status in a generation or two.

 

[dianaiad]

We are? I know I'm not really young anymore, but old?

Well, I'm 70. even according to the Bible, that's old.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

The problem is that high school teachers are underpaid, especially high school math teachers. So, the people who actually understand the subject will take other, higher-paying jobs, leaving the people who are unqualified for those jobs but barely qualified to be teachers teaching high school. As a result, we have teachers who in many cases don't even understand what they are teaching. I have a B.S. in mathematics and don't consider myself qualified to thoroughly educate high school students in math. Yet most of our high school math teachers know less math than I do.

 

[dianaiad]

What sympathy do you have for where the students are coming from though. Like I came from the kind of home-life that was rough enough, with a good dose of alcoholism in it. What is discipline really worth to a student if they are dealing with a whole other thing like that.

At the risk of sounding heartless...and I know it does...that's not my problem. It shouldn't be the problem of the teacher who has you for an hour a day, either. What we, the teachers, should be providing is a safe hour, and a safe chair, for you to be in, in order to learn to read, write, learn history, do math....etc., I may have a great deal of sympathy for you, but remember: as a high school teacher I will have between thirty and forty students every hour, and a total of (at the very least) 150 students every day to deal with. ALL of you have 'backstories,' and some are worse than yours. The problem is, the system is trying to force the same curricula on all of you...and all of us, and it's not working.

I still remember my second grade teacher doing something once though in the mid-90s... I can't remember exactly what I did, I think I was stressing out her assistant or something, but she took me and this other kid briskly down the hall at one point, a good distance from the classroom. Then she flung me against the wall and was screamin at me over something

Did you do that again?

Mind you, I absolutely do not approve of what she did. On the other hand, I know of no school system that would have allowed some lesser discipline that might have prevented this, and THIS...would have gotten her fired if an administrator had seen it.

But then I was in the second grade in 1956. My teacher did no such thing to me; I was too busy reading the 'Black Beauty" books.

 

[dianaiad]

Is that why the more education a person has the more likely that person will vote democrat?

(snort)

the more highly educated (more degrees) someone has, the more indoctrination s/he's had from college professors whose philosophical and political world bears absolutely no resemblance to 'real life.'

It is true, that old cliche', about how a young man who isn't a liberal has no heart, and an old man who isn't a conservative has no brain.

Those of us who got our degrees later in life, and weren't all that susceptible to the indoctrination, tend not to be quite so sheeplike about their voting. Certainly I wasn't.

AND I could argue with the professors. My classmates couldn't, but most of the time I was older than the professor, had more life experience and could get snarky without getting my grades sliced (again, most of the time. there were exceptions).

 

[dianaiad]

The problem is that high school teachers are underpaid, especially high school math teachers.

Wait. What do you mean 'especially?" English teachers have to spend the same amount of time in college, get equal degrees, and get paid the same as you guys. Not only that, bub, we keep getting brand new stuff coming out to learn, so we can teach it to the students. Math teachers? Not so much, unless you are teaching highly advanced math to university post grads, and if so, you get paid very well...and we aren't talking about post grad university professors, are we?

So, the people who actually understand the subject will take other, higher-paying jobs, leaving the people who are unqualified for those jobs but barely qualified to be teachers teaching high school.

You realize that you have just deeply insulted every teacher on the planet, right?

Now me...I have two bachelor's degrees, a teaching credential (the equivalent in any other state to a masters) and a masters. I am ABD in a doctorate program (all but dissertation) and could do THAT in a few months if I wanted to, had the money and any use for it. I am very qualified...and so are all the teachers I know. And I know quite a few.

....have teachers who in many cases don't even understand what they are teaching. I have a B.S. in mathematics and don't consider myself qualified to thoroughly educate high school students in math. Yet most of our high school math teachers know less math than I do.

What state to you live in...and what county of that state? Because in California, which has what I think is one of the WORST educational systems in the world, your BS would barely qualify you to be a substitute.

And that is MY problem; our educational system requires that teachers be extremely highly educated, credentialed and degreed....and then doesn't let us actually teach anything.

 

[metis]

If our education here is supposedly so terrible, then why is it that we are still the #1 superpower economically?

 

[Estro Felino]

Evidently our thorough inflexible education system has produced its fruits

 

[amorphous_constellation]

At the risk of sounding heartless...and I know it does...that's not my problem. It shouldn't be the problem of the teacher who has you for an hour a day, either. What we, the teachers, should be providing is a safe hour, and a safe chair, for you to be in, in order to learn to read, write, learn history, do math....etc., I may have a great deal of sympathy for you, but remember: as a high school teacher I will have between thirty and forty students every hour, and a total of (at the very least) 150 students every day to deal with. ALL of you have 'backstories,' and some are worse than yours. The problem is, the system is trying to force the same curricula on all of you...and all of us, and it's not working.

I don't know, I see your point on the practical level, but I can see that this answer seems pretty conflicted. You see the need to maintain an objective environment, which should streamline out the inefficiency of sympathy, which might not do much good in any case anyway. The show must go on. At the same time, you argue with the objective animus of the system. I guess I sympathize with you, I wouldn't want to have to rationalize all that. There's nothing you could have done with these kinds of problems, I guess

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If our education here is supposedly so terrible, then why is it that we are still the #1 superpower economically?

I dunno, resource consolidation after world war two.. who knows how much longer that will last.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Our high school...biology teacher spending two months on making us study Evolution ( and then one month of Mendelian genetics)
.

Pictures of Darwin everywhere in biology and chemistry labs

Well, yeah, you don't live in a land of Bible humpers.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Some great points have been made in this thread so far, and I have read all of them. Nice going, folks!

I attended a private Christian church-funded academy for most of my formative years and was taught creationism directly. I home schooled for a few and was taught creationism directly. I attended a public school for a year then again private school and then finished out my last two years again in a public school. The main difference between the public school and the church funded schools were the available numbers of friends. I found it much easier to get along with people at the public school. I was able to find a group. I have since heard many horrible stories of other students in small church funded schools with similar struggles. There weren't enough students, and many of the students didn't like being in a church funded school and felt trapped. The education was also of lower quality. There weren't as many things to do. Everything was one-size-fits-all. Either you fit in perfectly or you were a completely misfit. I recall hearing that this private church funded academy thing was what has messed up Howard Stern so badly, or at least its what he claims. I believe him.

I believe that I was not required to practice enough arithmetic problems and that I should have been taught speed-arithmetic tricks. That could have changed my life for the better.

I was taught phonics in an early grade, and for me this was a perfect fit. Reading was always easy afterwards. Some students learned better through other methods.

I was not given the opportunity or encouraged to learn a second language before I reached high school. In hindsight I believe this was an inexcusable oversight. I guess I'd have to blame my parents for it, but the schools didn't offer it where I lived. Generally...languages were undervalued and should have been more important.

Public schools have a problem in that they like to experiment and direct their teachers to teach a certain way and then 2 years later tell them to throw away their lesson plans to follow a new theoretical approach. This is exacerbated by the way superintendents are swapped in and out, sort of like churches get their ministers from seminaries. The new superintendent wants to try something new, so the whole school has to flip.

Some interesting quotes from the thread:

the reliance on standardarised testing, and the outsourcing of this that I personally find troubling

Yes, it is troubling. John Oliver has a good show about it, by-the-way.

38 % in the US believe in YEC. In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low I call that a fail of the educational system.

I think that is mostly due to church funded private academies and church sponsored home-schooling systems. The public schooling system is not responsible for it, with extremely rare exceptions. Its a church and parental kind of thing. Parents are ultimately in charge of each child's education. I support that even though their choices seem questionable sometimes. Parents always excel in one area and lack in others. You just can't have enough parents. If only I had ten I would have been more well rounded.

Yeah, you don’t know what you are talking about. I am a STEM teacher in the U.S. I am paid one fifth of what I used to make as a high tech engineer. Luckily for my students I don’t need to work for the salary but do it as an avocation because of their need for an education. Teachers are not paid particularly well in the U.S. Someone could get by on just a teacher’s salary. But nobody is going to get wealthy on a teacher’s salary.

Good point. Several other posters have also witness to this.

This reminds me of a common problem with education these days.
Kids who aren't college bound aren't taught trades. And even
math isn't made relevant to practical application.

Yes, and in this regard we should be learning from Europe's example. Why aren't we?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, and in this regard we should be learning from Europe's example. Why aren't we?

I suspect one reason is that schools are judged based upon
standardized tests, which don't address trade education.
Old saying....
"If you pay people to grow bananas, you'll get bananas."
We pay schools to teach to the test. Guess what happens.

Another thing I notice....
Trades are looked down upon in Ameristan. I've seen this
prejudice among educated people....even liberals who
profess valuing tolerance & equality. But they dis welders,
carpenters, etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, I'm 70. even according to the Bible, that's old.

I'm abit under half that in age. There is a very slight chance (only about 1%) you're more intelligent. So, you may want to drop the "older members are more intelligent" bollocks because some of the older members aren't that intelligent, while those younger than geriatric-aged have members who are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I suspect one reason is that schools are judged based upon
standardized tests, which don't address trade education.
Old saying....
"If you pay people to grow bananas, you'll get bananas."
We pay schools to teach to the test. Guess what happens.

The country developed a rambling, burning, talking Bush problem that no child has been able to leave behind since. (not the sole reason, but I thought it sounded good)

 

[Revoltingest]

The country developed a rambling, burning, talking Bush problem that no child has been able to leave behind since. (not the sole reason, but I thought it sounded good)

Whuh?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is true, that old cliche', about how a young man who isn't a liberal has no heart, and an old man who isn't a conservative has no brain.

Whatever. More baseless stereotypes that have zero weight and merit in real life to support as factual that do nothing--absolutely nothing--than serve to make the one saying feel superior to others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Whuh?

Bush Jr, his love of the Bible, and his No Child Left Behind act that ramped up and promoted standardized testing. (or, as the band Ministry put it, "ask me why you're feeling screwed and I'll give you the answer : there's a Colon, Dick, and Bush just a hammerin' away." )

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lol... People will be who they're going to be, and I've seen some pretty stupid liberals. I've also seen stupid Conservatives... I've seen highly intelligent conservatives and highly intelligent liberals.

...Your point means nothing to me.

Because you want to deny evidence, apparently.