The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i attitude to homosexuality stinks.

The Greeks played a pretty important part in creating modern society. I wonder where their ideas about what is acceptable sexual behavior came from? Their religion? If so, where did their religion come from? Did Zeus speak to a Greek manifestation? Is Zeus real? Was the Greek religious ideas anything more than man-made myths? So do people, ultimately, decide on what to belief and what is proper behavior?

Unfortunately, the "Real" God hates homosexuality? They were to be stoned in Judaism. The NT says they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. And, no doubt, Islam doesn't like them either. So as "modern" society progresses toward a better, more peaceful, more respectful of others kind of society, why does the Baha'i Faith forbid it? Oh, and another "progressive" Baha'i law is no alcohol. That didn't go over too well in the America. I wonder how will the Baha'is enforce their laws? A slap on the wrist? Taking away their voting rights? Imprisonment? A mental ward? Stoning? Will God come down, or at least send his son down to be the judge?

Or, will it be people? People that have to interpret and administer what they think is God's Law" People that can get a little over zealous in enforcing and forcing God's rules of conduct and morality on others? I don't know. How many want to give the Baha'is a chance to prove they can rule the world? Because, that is what the Baha'i Faith is all about, bringing the Kingdom of God to Earth. I almost do. After all, they can't do much worse than any other religion has. But then again, the bar wasn't set very high.

 

[CG Didymus]

Theologically? That confuses me.

That's what is confusing me to. All religions are one, according to the Baha'is. But all of them are different in their theology? Isn't theology all about who God is? If they're all different about that, then where is all the oneness of religion at? And this whole school thing. My first grade teacher did teach me the things I needed to learn to move on to the second grade. But did one religion really teach me the things I needed to learn to become the next religion in the succession? No, most of them are telling me there is no succession. They say that they are it. And if I don't believe them, then I've missed the boat.

 

[arthra]

That's what is confusing me to. All religions are one, according to the Baha'is. But all of them are different in their theology? Isn't theology all about who God is? If they're all different about that, then where is all the oneness of religion at? And this whole school thing. My first grade teacher did teach me the things I needed to learn to move on to the second grade. But did one religion really teach me the things I needed to learn to become the next religion in the succession? No, most of them are telling me there is no succession. They say that they are it. And if I don't believe them, then I've missed the boat.

In our view there really is a succession and you can see this even if you read the Bible... which is a succession of revelations over time. The Qur'an further illustrates this by recounting the role of the various prophets.

Along with this are what are called Covenants which each Prophet has... The order comes something like this:

First is a revelatory experience..

Followed by a Message for the people of the time..

Followed by a Covenant and usually some laws or ordinances.

The spiritual truths of man's relationship to God are usually reinforced..

So Jesus emphasized the spiritual truths behind say the laws of Moses in the Sermon on the Mount and so on...

 

[arthra]

Sure it's different. Everything is different from everything else. But I wouldn't call the Baha'i faith 'independent' myself. It seems entirely dependent on the earlier Abrahamics.

By independent I think we mean that it is an independent religion having it's own Holy Days..revealed scriptures and Messengers.. Yes it also respects the previous dispensations that have gone before.

 

[arthra]

Didymus wrote above:

I don't know. How many want to give the Baha'is a chance to prove they can rule the world? Because, that is what the Baha'i Faith is all about, bringing the Kingdom of God to Earth.

My comment:

Baha'is aren't interested in "ruling the world"... Baha'u'llah back around 1871 recommended that a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration be set up to reduce wars and establish law for peace... Those proposals were largely ignored until after two devastating world wars we have an international court of arbitration and the beginnings of perhaps a representative world parliament in the United Nations.

You can read more in a book called the Summons of the Lord of Hosts:

Summons of the Lord of Hosts

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

In our view the women are exempt from 'serving' on Universal House of Justice. We don't see it as being treated inferior.

I understand. Most everyone else sees it differently than the Baha'is see it, though.

I notice you didn't answer my question about gays getting married and then joining the Faith.

In my conception, Truth which prefers not to stand up for itself is almost always an inferior Truth.

 

[BruceDLimber]

ince the Baha'i message is meant to unite all of mankind, then all of us are going to be under its jurisdiction, right?

If we all become Baha'is, of course!

In thish case the original question no longer applies anyway.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I can't remember a Baha'i ever speaking of the Book of Mormon as a scripture.

And for good reason!

I quote:

#1727
"Regarding your question concerning Joseph Smith and the 'Book of Mormon'; as the Bahá'í Teachings quite clearly outline the succession of Prophets from the days of Christ as being Muhammad, the Báb, and finally Bahá'u'lláh, it is obvious that Joseph Smith is not a Manifestation of God."
―Lights of Guidance, pp. 511-512


And thus, we don't consider the Book of Mormon scripture.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

Didymos wrote above:

"The Greeks played a pretty important part in creating modern society...."

My comment:

Yes indeed...

For every land We have prescribed a portion, for every occasion an allotted share, for every pronouncement an appointed time and for every situation an apt remark. Consider Greece. We made it a Seat of Wisdom for a prolonged period.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 149)

As to deistic philosophers, such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, they are indeed worthy of esteem and of the highest praise, for they have rendered distinguished services to mankind. In like manner we regard the materialistic, accomplished, moderate philosophers, that have been of service (to mankind).

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 337

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

And thus, we don't consider the Book of Mormon scripture.

Yeah, I was just making an observation about the Baha'i stance on scripture. It seems curious to me.

A Jew will say, "We don't believe in the Christian scriptures and the Muslim scriptures."

A Mormon will say, "We don't accept the Muslim or the Baha'i scriptures."

A Christian will say, "Oh, no, we don't follow the Hindu scriptures."

But a Baha'i will say, "We follow all the scriptures of the whole world. We don't reject any of them."

At least, that's been my experience of listening to Baha'is talk about it. They don't seem to want to admit that they reject some scriptures.

 

[CG Didymus]

Reincarbnation is an ancient belief ... If you check though it appears in the Upanishads and is not found in the earlier Vedas.

Thanks for the links. I glanced at them and will check out more in depth later. However, it's Krishna that talks about reincarnation. The site I looked at said this:

The most fundamental information about reincarnation is found in Bhagavad-gita. In Chapter 2, Krishna explains in a rational, simple and clearly understandable way how the soul travels from body to body. This fact is not a question of belief but is relatively easy to understand and to accept with logical conclusions.

So is Krishna wrong? Misinterpreted? Or, did Hindu spiritual leaders invent Krishna and reincarnation and he is not a historical figure but just a myth? Thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

In our view there really is a succession and you can see this even if you read the Bible... which is a succession of revelations over time. The Qur'an further illustrates this by recounting the role of the various prophets.

It was already mentioned that Mormonism and Joseph Smith aren't considered by the Baha'i Faith as legitimate. But why are any? If we look at the Bible, it is a compilation of things meant and written by Jews. If Moses was the "manifestation", then who wrote the rest of it? Were those writers infallible and speaking for God? And even with Moses, did he really write the first five books? And then there is the "Oral Torah"? Is that from God? And, out of the Jewish religion, how many people do the Baha'is consider "manifestations"? Adam? Noah? Abraham? And, if so, why? And, to the Jews, even Moses isn't even considered a "manifestation". He was just a man like everybody else. And then there is the question about the Messiah.

What is he supposed to accomplish? Did Jesus fulfill the requirements? The Jews, as far as I know, are waiting for one Messiah. But, since Jesus, there has been Mohammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah according the Baha'i Faith. How does that work? Were they supposed to believe that Mohammad was the messiah and join Islam? Thanks again Arthra for your time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for the links. I glanced at them and will check out more in depth later. However, it's Krishna that talks about reincarnation. The site I looked at said this:So is Krishna wrong? Misinterpreted? Or, did Hindu spiritual leaders invent Krishna and reincarnation and he is not a historical figure but just a myth? Thanks.

"The answer to this question is also embodied in these blessed, these weighty and exalted words: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements”. For this day is the Lord of all days, and whatsoever hath been revealed therein by the Source of divine Revelation is the truth and the essence of all principles. This day may be likened to a sea and all other days to gulfs and channels that have branched therefrom. That which is uttered and revealed in this day is the foundation, and is accounted as the Mother Book and the Source of all utterance. Although every day is associated with God, magnified be His glory, yet these days have been singled out and adorned with the ornament of intimate association with Him, for they have been extolled in the books of the Chosen Ones of God, as well as of some of His Prophets, as the “Day of God”. In a sense this day and that which appeareth therein are to be regarded as the primary principles, while all other days and whatsoever appeareth in them are to be viewed as the secondary ordinances deduced therefrom, and which as such are subordinate and relative."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Tabernacle of Unity, Pages 3-13

 

[CG Didymus]

"...That which is uttered and revealed in this day is the foundation, and is accounted as the Mother Book and the Source of all utterance. Although every day is associated with God.... In a sense this day and that which appeareth therein are to be regarded as the primary principles, while all other days and whatsoever appeareth in them are to be viewed as the secondary ordinances deduced therefrom, and which as such are subordinate and relative."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Tabernacle of Unity, Pages 3-13

Okay, so we can't trust what was written in all the other Holy Books, accept the Quran and Baha'i writings, because the manifestation didn't write them in his own words. How about the Bab's writings? I don't hear too much about those? But, anyway, people reduced, redacted and pretty much messed with the stories of all the other manifestations, so we don't know what is really from God and what is from man. Plus, like in the NT, the followers misinterpreted what was meant because most of it was said in a figurative language.

Everything important to Christians for 2000 years is wrong. Jesus didn't rise from the dead. His "spirit" his "essence" rose up in the hearts of his followers? And, add to that, according to the Quran, he didn't even die on the cross. There is no devil. There is no hell. Believers don't go to heaven to be with Jesus and non-believers aren't cast into a lake of fire.

In Judaism, God killed off a lot of people for breaking his rules. If he didn't zap them directly, he had the people stone the Law breakers. So what "grade" was this? Second grade? Third grade? You'd think he'd be more understanding with his people. Since they were still like infants in a spiritual sense. After all, he made them. Why was he so harsh then but eased up on the rules and punishments with Jesus, and then, got harsh again with Islam?

Anyway, saying it was "authoritative" but now is "secondary" to Baha'i teachings...and saying that much of it was "figurative" and only Baha'u'llah knows the true meaning... and saying that it was all misinterpreted isn't much different than saying all previous religions were man-made guesses as to what God wants and to who God is.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Yeah, I was just making an observation about the Baha'i stance on scripture. It seems curious to me.

Then you are ignoring the clear statement in the Baha'i scriptures that most--but NOT all!--religions are legitimate!:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."

—(Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8) [emphasis added]


Bruce

 

[Desert Snake]

What about Astrology? Is that allowed?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Then you are ignoring the clear statement in the Baha'i scriptures that most--but NOT all!--religions are legitimate!:

I see that you are paying no attention at all to what I'm saying.

Not sure why you are here, but I come here for dialogue.

 

[Desert Snake]

I see that you are paying no attention at all to what I'm saying.

Not sure why you are here, but I come here for dialogue.

Hmm my question wasn't answered either.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What about Astrology? Is that allowed?

"Some of the celestial stars have a clear and apparent material effect upon the terrestrial globe and the earthly beings, which needs no explanation. Consider the sun, which through the aid and the providence of God develops the earth and all earthly beings. Without the light and heat of the sun, all the earthly creatures would be entirely nonexistent.


With regard to the spiritual influence of stars, though this influence of stars in the human world may appear strange, still, if you reflect deeply upon this subject, you will not be so much surprised at it. My meaning is not, however, that the decrees which the astrologers of former times inferred from the movements of the stars corresponded to occurrences; for the decrees of those former astrologers were forms of imagination which were originated by Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean priests; nay, rather, they were due to the fancies of Hindus, to the myths of the Greeks, Romans and other star worshipers. But I mean that this limitless universe is like the human body, all the members of which are connected and linked with one another with the greatest strength. How much the organs, the members and the parts of the body of man are intermingled and connected for mutual aid and help, and how much they influence one another! In the same way, the parts of this infinite universe have their members and elements connected with one another, and influence one another spiritually and materially.


For example, the eye sees, and all the body is affected; the ear hears, and all the members of the body are moved. Of this there is no doubt; and the universe is like a living person. Moreover, the connection which exists between the members of beings must necessarily have an effect and impression, whether it be material or spiritual.


For those who deny spiritual influence upon material things we mention this brief example: wonderful sounds and tones, melodies and charming voices, are accidents which affect the air—for sound is the term for vibrations of the air—and by these vibrations the nerves of the tympanum of the ear are affected, and hearing results. Now reflect that the vibration of the air, which is an accident of no importance, attracts and exhilarates the spirit of man and has great effect upon him: it makes him weep or laugh; perhaps it will influence him to such a degree that he will throw himself into danger. Therefore, see the connection which exists between the spirit of man and the atmospheric vibration, so that the movement of the air becomes the cause of transporting him from one state to another, and of entirely overpowering him; it will deprive him of patience and tranquillity. Consider how strange this is, for nothing comes forth from the singer which enters into the listener; nevertheless, a great spiritual effect is produced. Therefore, surely so great a connection between beings must have spiritual effect and influence.


It has been mentioned that the members and parts of man affect and influence one another. For example, the eye sees; the heart is affected. The ear hears; and the spirit is influenced. The heart is at rest; the thoughts become serene, and for all the members of man’s body a pleasant condition is realized. What a connection and what an agreement is this! Since this connection, this spiritual effect and this influence, exists between the members of the body of man, who is only one of many finite beings, certainly between these universal and infinite beings there will also be a spiritual and material connection. Although by existing rules and actual science these connections cannot be discovered, nevertheless, their existence between all beings is certain and absolute.


To conclude: the beings, whether great or small, are connected with one another by the perfect wisdom of God, and affect and influence one another. If it were not so, in the universal system and the general arrangement of existence, there would be disorder and imperfection. But as beings are connected one with another with the greatest strength, they are in order in their places and perfect.


This subject is worthy of examination. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 245-247

 

[Desert Snake]

Thanks!

i'm out of frubies..