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The Bahai interpretation of Jesus, the crucifixion, and him in the Qur'an

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why am I not surprised that you will refer to someone who contradicts mainstream Muslim thought as 'fringe'?

Let's examine some of the commentators mentioned:

1/ Mahmoud Ayoub

Mahmoud M. Ayoub is a Lebanese scholar and professor of religious and inter-faith studies.

Mahmoud M. Ayoub - Wikipedia

Looks legitimate.

2/ Muhammad Rashid Rida

Muhammad Rashid Rida (Arabic: محمد رشيد رضا‎, romanized: Muḥammad Rashīd Riḍā; 23 September 1865[1] or 18 October 1865[2] – 22 August 1935)[2] was a prominent Islamic reformer and revivalist. Rida is said to have been one of the most influential and controversial scholars of his generation[7] and was influenced by the movement for Islamic Modernism founded in Egypt by Muhammad Abduh

Rashid Rida - Wikipedia

Looks legitimate.

3/ Al-Masúdi

Al-Mas'udi (Arabic: أَبُو ٱلْحَسَن عَلِيّ ٱبْن ٱلْحُسَيْن ٱبْن عَلِيّ ٱلْمَسْعُودِيّ‎, ʾAbū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn ʿAlī al-Masʿūdī; c. 896–956) was an Arab historian, geographer and traveler. He is sometimes referred to as the "Herodotus of the Arabs".[1][2] A polymath and prolific author of over twenty works on theology, history (Islamic and universal), geography, natural science and philosophy, his celebrated magnum opus Murūj al-Dhahab wa-Ma'ādin al-Jawhar (Arabic: مُرُوج ٱلذَّهَب وَمَعَادِن ٱلْجَوْهَر‎), combines universal history with scientific geography, social commentary and biography, and is published in English in a multi-volume series as The Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems.[3]

Al-Masudi - Wikipedia

Looks legitimate.

I could continue but the point is clear. There are well known Muslim commentators who believed Jesus was crucified. The fact that conservative Muslims such as yourself view them as fringe and with disdain is irrelevant to me.

Quran 4:157 is as clear to you as it is to me. We just view it differently.

Thanks for the cut and pastes that's already read online. Of course, you did not answer a single thing I asked.

Tell me some things specifically.

Each of these so called "commentators" which you said without a clue, can you tell me

1. Why you agree with them so wholeheartedly.
2. What is their exegesis, what did they exactly say, and what sources do they use?
3. Do you agree with them in all aspects or just this one thing? Why do you reject everything else if you do, or why do you agree?

Lets get to the specifics now.

Thanks.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for the cut and pastes that's already read online. Of course, you did not answer a single thing I asked.

Tell me some things specifically.

Each of these so called "commentators" which you said without a clue, can you tell me

1. Why you agree with them so wholeheartedly.
2. What is their exegesis, what did they exactly say, and what sources do they use?
3. Do you agree with them in all aspects or just this one thing? Why do you reject everything else if you do, or why do you agree?

Lets get to the specifics now.

Thanks.

They are examples of Muslims who believe Jesus was literally crucified. I have not studied any of their works. There is only one commentator of Islam and the Quran I fleetingly studied and agree with wholeheartedly and that is Mirza Husayn-Ali who was given the title Bahá’u’lláh at the conference of Badasdt.

Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

Of the authors I have mentioned, particularly the two modern ones, I’m sure I will find much agreement. Any intelligent, moral and well intentioned person who tries to reform and modernise Islam has my support. Any such person within Islam who attempts to meaningfully reconcile the Quran with the Christian Bible has my support. I didn’t need to read much about Mahmoud Ayoub to work our I liked the guy.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
They are examples of Muslims who believe Jesus was literally crucified. I have not studied any of their works. There is only one commentator of Islam and the Quran I fleetingly studied and agree with wholeheartedly and that is Mirza Husayn-Ali who was given the title Bahá’u’lláh at the conference of Badasdt.

Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

Of the authors I have mentioned, particularly the two modern ones, I’m sure I will find much agreement. Any intelligent, moral and well intentioned person who tries to reform and modernise Islam has my support. Any such person within Islam who attempts to meaningfully reconcile the Quran with the Christian Bible has my support. I didn’t need to read much about Mahmoud Ayoub to work our I liked the guy.

So bottomline is, you have no clue why! You dont have a single answer to any of the questions. Though it goes against the Quran, you just have blind faith, against the book you claim is Gods revelation. No answer, but just again, blind faith.

Just to make sure, I will cut and paste again.

Tell me some things specifically.

Each of these so called "commentators" which you said without a clue, can you tell me

1. Why you agree with them so wholeheartedly.
2. What is their exegesis, what did they exactly say, and what sources do they use?
3. Do you agree with them in all aspects or just this one thing? Why do you reject everything else if you do, or why do you agree?

Lets get to the specifics now.

Thanks.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
They are examples of Muslims who believe Jesus was literally crucified.

I know you might only respond to this post ignoring the prior one but nevertheless this must be said. What you said above is such a bogus response. You claimed "early Quran commentators". None of these people are "Quran commentators". And Ayoub is not "early". You will never address this and admit that your claim was not substantiated but you made an absolutely strawman response ignoring that you claimed "early Quran commentators" but now say "Muslims who believe Jesus was crucified".

1. The topic is not "Muslims who claimed Jesus was crucified". So that's a strawman.
2. Still, you claimed "early Quran commentators just now" and changed it to "Muslims who believed". Well, you cut and pasted in a hurry so now of course you have to say something.

Read your own Wikipedia page, and your own cut and paste. It does not state they were mufassireen. They were some muslims who believed in the historicity of Jesus and the crucifixion.

And you have no clue who they are, what they believed in, why they believed in, what they said, what their sources were, what their exegesis was, nothing.

Is there any valid arguments at all? The text says "ma kathaloohoo, wa ma salaboohoo". Thats it. You or anyone here have not given a single valid response. Nothing but "because we say so" or "because someone said so".

Lets say someone writes an article saying "Bahai faith is absolutely bogus" and I just claim "Mr. ABC said this so it must be true", is that a valid argument? No. I must take your scripture, analyse it and provide valid arguments. Not just blind faith.

Tsk.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So bottomline is, you have no clue why! You dont have a single answer to any of the questions. Though it goes against the Quran, you just have blind faith, against the book you claim is Gods revelation. No answer, but just again, blind faith.

Just to make sure, I will cut and paste again.

Tell me some things specifically.

Each of these so called "commentators" which you said without a clue, can you tell me

1. Why you agree with them so wholeheartedly.
2. What is their exegesis, what did they exactly say, and what sources do they use?
3. Do you agree with them in all aspects or just this one thing? Why do you reject everything else if you do, or why do you agree?

Lets get to the specifics now.

Thanks.
I answered your questions. Reread my post. If you're unable to discuss this in a civil, respectful manner, then best we discontinue our discussion.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I know you might only respond to this post ignoring the prior one but nevertheless this must be said. What you said above is such a bogus response. You claimed "early Quran commentators". None of these people are "Quran commentators". And Ayoub is not "early". You will never address this and admit that your claim was not substantiated but you made an absolutely strawman response ignoring that you claimed "early Quran commentators" but now say "Muslims who believe Jesus was crucified".

1. The topic is not "Muslims who claimed Jesus was crucified". So that's a strawman.
2. Still, you claimed "early Quran commentators just now" and changed it to "Muslims who believed". Well, you cut and pasted in a hurry so now of course you have to say something.

Read your own Wikipedia page, and your own cut and paste. It does not state they were mufassireen. They were some muslims who believed in the historicity of Jesus and the crucifixion.

And you have no clue who they are, what they believed in, why they believed in, what they said, what their sources were, what their exegesis was, nothing.

Is there any valid arguments at all? The text says "ma kathaloohoo, wa ma salaboohoo". Thats it. You or anyone here have not given a single valid response. Nothing but "because we say so" or "because someone said so".

Lets say someone writes an article saying "Bahai faith is absolutely bogus" and I just claim "Mr. ABC said this so it must be true", is that a valid argument? No. I must take your scripture, analyse it and provide valid arguments. Not just blind faith.

Tsk.

Mate, it's not hard to get a sense of who any of the eight people named were. They were Muslims who provided thoughtful commentary and analysis on their faith. Some lived in the first few centuries after Islam emerged, others are contemporary. Clearly there are Muslims today who are prepared to reconcile what the Gospel says about Christ and what the Quran says. Its no doubt extremely hard in some parts of the Islamic world to voice an opinion that contradicts the views of conservative leaders and scholars.

The fact remains that's it not just a Baha'i view that Jesus's crucifixion is consistent with a metaphorical interpretation of 4:157. Some Muslims take the same approach. Some of those Muslims have legitimate academic credentials. The fact that I have not studied any of the people listed in depth is of no consequence. There is sufficient evidence based on the English translation of the text, history and the Gospel accounts to conclude Jesus was almost certainly crucified. Further Christ's crucifixion is consistent with the clear text of the Quran.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Mate, it's not hard to get a sense of who any of the eight people named were. They were Muslims who provided thoughtful commentary and analysis on their faith. Some lived in the first few centuries after Islam emerged, others are contemporary. Clearly there are Muslims today who are prepared to reconcile what the Gospel says about Christ and what the Quran says. Its no doubt extremely hard in some parts of the Islamic world to voice an opinion that contradicts the views of conservative leaders and scholars.

The fact remains that's it not just a Baha'i view that Jesus's crucifixion is consistent with a metaphorical interpretation of 4:157. Some Muslims take the same approach. Some of those Muslims have legitimate academic credentials. The fact that I have not studied any of the people listed in depth is of no consequence. There is sufficient evidence based on the English translation of the text, history and the Gospel accounts to conclude Jesus was almost certainly crucified. Further Christ's crucifixion is consistent with the clear text of the Quran.

You know your response is invalid.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
They were Muslims who provided thoughtful commentary and analysis on their faith.

If you have no answer, and if you dont have clue what you are talking about, be decent and say "I have no clue, I just blindly believe". Making absolutely vague claims thinking that justifies your more vague claims is invalid.

Ill tell you what. Let me give you Quran commentators, unlike your claimed "Quran commentators" who turned up to be "Proselytisers" who you had no clue about, these people are real mufassireen with real tafsirs. What do you say??

Find out what these Tafsirs exactly said about this verse. Now if you can blindly believe in some people you dont know about, with no idea about what they really said, what they wrote or anything for that matter, you can believe these people who are real Quran commentators. It is you who wished to get into what Muslims believed and you started worshiping some Ishmailis whose proselytising is your cherry picked deity.

Mujahid Bin Jabar
At thabari
Ibn Abbas
Tustari
Kashani
Jalalayn
Abul kasim al kushayris
Al Wahidis Asbab alNuzul
Rashid adDin Maybudis Kashaf al Asrar

Just a few. Everyone disagrees with you. And mind you, if you ask me what they said I can tell you, unlike your Ishmaili evangelists who "believed Jesus was crucified". It is just a belief. Not scriptural. This is Tafseer, Quran commentators like you claimed but turned out to be evangelists and some "secret Iraqi group" who you would not know who or what or when.

So whats your standard?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Of course Muslim beliefs are relevant. If the mainstream Muslim interpretation doesn’t have a shred of historical evidence to support it, that’s a problem. If the Muslim interpretation leads to preposterous theories about how the body of Jesus on the cross was substituted for someone else then that is relevant. If varied interpretation from Muslims involves willingness to consider symbolism then it begs the obvious question as to why not view 4:157 less literally. If the clear text of the Gospel outlines Christ’s crucifixion and the Quran affirms the Gospel, the same Gospel in circulation during Muhammad’s lifetime, then that is highly relevant.
So Baha'is believe the crucifixion of Jesus was literal, but the stories after he was buried are symbolic? Like when his followers found the tomb empty and then Jesus began appearing to them? But when the Quran says he wasn't crucified... that is symbolic? So both Christians and Muslims took something that was meant to be taken symbolically... literally?

But back to the NT story... If Jesus "rose" again in spirit only, why the empty tomb? Now back to the Quran... So it is authoritative and The Truth but some things, like the Bible, aren't literally true? And that was to confuse the followers to see which ones would wrongly take it literally, and which ones would correctly take it symbolically? Or, each religion just makes up stuff to justify their own beliefs?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So Baha'is believe the crucifixion of Jesus was literal, but the stories after he was buried are symbolic? Like when his followers found the tomb empty and then Jesus began appearing to them? But when the Quran says he wasn't crucified... that is symbolic? So both Christians and Muslims took something that was meant to be taken symbolically... literally?

But back to the NT story... If Jesus "rose" again in spirit only, why the empty tomb? Now back to the Quran... So it is authoritative and The Truth but some things, like the Bible, aren't literally true? And that was to confuse the followers to see which ones would wrongly take it literally, and which ones would correctly take it symbolically? Or, each religion just makes up stuff to justify their own beliefs?

There was never any dispute that Jesus was crucified. It is an event clearly recorded in all four Gospels as well as non-biblical sources such as Josephus. Crucifixion is a well documented method the Romans used to crucify criminals. There is nothing supernatural or extraordinary about it. Most historians of antiquity agree that Jesus was indeed crucified.

The resurrection and ascension of Jesus is an extraordinary event that requires supernatural powers. It relies on an obsolete cosmology. There is no accounts beyond the NT that document these extraordinary events. The empty tomb is simply part of an allegorical story.

It makes little or no sense for Muhammad to be bringing into question a well known historical fact. It makes much more sense for Him to be saying that although they killed/crucified Jesus they did not and could not kill His Spirit or His Cause. Any English translation of the Quran says exactly that:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Any verse whether from the Christian Bible or the Quran needs to be considered in context. It makes no sense for Muhammad to deny Christ was crucified. His account is theological or religious, not historical IMHO.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
as well as non-biblical sources such as Josephus.

  • Do you not know that this passage is absolutely disputed as authentic Josephus?
  • Anyway, by this, you have again dumped the Quran though you claim "its Gods revelation". This fact is ignored intentionally by all the Bahai's because it cannot be mistakenly done. This is the whole point of the thread so it cannot be a "mistakenly ignored".
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
It makes little or no sense for Muhammad to be bringing into question a well known historical fact.

Since you quoted Josephus as the historical source, and now since you claim "a well known historical FACT", and since you wish to derail the thread into "historicity" and "what a few Muslims believed", lets indulge.

1. Can you provide a manuscript of Josephus that Muhammeds time would have had to prove the authenticity?
2. What analysis could you show to prove the miracle working Jesus and the Pilate crucifixion episode that sounds like an advertisement in the middle of a TV programme in the antiquities is authentic?

Lets see if this "historical fact" statement of yours has any integrity.

Peace.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Mujahid Bin Jabar
At thabari
Ibn Abbas
Tustari
Kashani
Jalalayn
Abul kasim al kushayris
Al Wahidis Asbab alNuzul
Rashid adDin Maybudis Kashaf al Asrar

I have no doubt all the commentators you have chosen are well respected in Sunni Islamic circles. However I am not a Sunni Muslim and so do not view them as having anymore or any less authority than the eight Quranic commentators mentioned in Wikipedia.

What is important is the text in the Quran, as translated into English. I do not deny the text if viewed in isolation from the historical facts, Gospel accounts and indeed the Quran as a whole, could be viewed as a denial of Christ’s crucifixion. That is clearly the conclusion of mainstream Islam, Sunni or Shi’a. However, there are clearly commentators of the Quran, both early on and modern that support Christ having been crucified. Of course you will find fault with each and every one and denounce me for choosing them over your sources. However the facts remain that 4:157 can be interpreted metaphorically and has been from early on throughout Islam’s history.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
  • Do you not know that this passage is absolutely disputed as authentic Josephus?
  • Anyway, by this, you have again dumped the Quran though you claim "its Gods revelation". This fact is ignored intentionally by all the Bahai's because it cannot be mistakenly done. This is the whole point of the thread so it cannot be a "mistakenly ignored".

Of course I’m aware of how one particular passage in Josephus’s Antiquities is disputed. However there is reasonable consensus as to the partial authenticity of said passage.

Most modern scholars agree that while this Josephus passage (called the Testimonium Flavianum) includes some later interpolations, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate.[5][6][7]James Dunn states that there is "broad consensus" among scholars regarding the nature of an authentic reference to the crucifixion of Jesus in the Testimonium.[53]

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia

Of course there are other non biblical sources as well as the four canonical Gospel accounts.

The Wikipedia article continues on:

The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[72][73] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[72] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[74] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[75] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[62] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[4]Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[76]

There is no ‘dumping’ the Quran. The clear text of the Quran provides room from metaphorical interpretation. It is unnecessary to create a narrative that demeans Baha’is based on our difference of opinion about the meaning of 4:157.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I have no doubt all the commentators you have chosen are well respected in Sunni Islamic circles.

You misrepresented what I said. These are "Quran commentators" like the claim you made but your people you presented were not "Quran commentators" but were Ishmaili proselytisers.

So I say this for I think the 3rd or 4th time. They are Quran commentators.

Also you didnt understand that I know what they said exactly unlike you cutting and pasting peoples names you have no clue about what was said or anything for that matter. You even claimed "they were early Quran commentators" which was false. SO far you have not acknowledged of course because you obviously dont intend to engage in valid discussion.

What is important is the text in the Quran, as translated into English. I do not deny the text if viewed in isolation from the historical facts,

So though you claim it is Gods revelation you dont really believe it.

Of course I’m aware of how one particular passage in Josephus’s Antiquities is disputed. However there is reasonable consensus as to the partial authenticity of said passage.

Most modern scholars agree that while this Josephus passage (called the Testimonium Flavianum) includes some later interpolations, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate.[5][6][7]James Dunn states that there is "broad consensus" among scholars regarding the nature of an authentic reference to the crucifixion of Jesus in the Testimonium.[53]

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia

Nah. Wikipedia cut and pastes are not necessary. We all know that the passages are disputed, and there is a lot of scholarship on it.

The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.

So bottomline is you dont believe the Quran is Gods word.

There is no ‘dumping’ the Quran. The clear text of the Quran provides room from metaphorical interpretation.

No. It clearly says "He was not crucified". That type of claim does not have some "metaphorical interpretation". It is clear text.

You cannot interpret "he was not crucified" as "He was definitely crucified". Thats the exact opposite.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
‘And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh’s revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: “Our minds are closed” – Nay! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little – and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said “We have killed (‘qatalnā’) the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.” They did not kill him (wamā qatalūhu), nor did they crucify him (wamā ṣalabūhu), though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him – Nay! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him (‘rafaʿahu’) up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’ (Al-Nisa: 155-158; my emphasis).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not identify those Jews who ‘uttered a terrible slander against Mary’; nor the period in which they lived. However, there are clues in the writings of Origen, and in the Talmud.

Celsus, a polemic writer against Christians, produced his ‘Logos Alēthēs’ (‘The True Word’) between the years 175 and 180 C.E. Around 240 C.E. a copy was given to Origen of Alexandria, one of the most influential scholars in the early Church.

The original text of ‘Logos Alēthēs’ has been lost, but scholars have been able to reconstruct much of it, thanks to Origen’s many citations.

Origen writes:

‘He (Celsus) also introduces an imaginary character (a Jew) who addresses childish remarks to Jesus and says nothing worthy of a philosopher’s grey hairs…..After this he represents the Jew as having a conversation with Jesus himself and refuting him on many charges, as he thinks: first, because he (Jesus) fabricated the story of his birth from a virgin; and he reproaches him because he came from a Jewish village and from a poor country woman who earned her living by spinning. He (Celsus) says that she was driven out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, as she was convicted of adultery.’ (‘Contra Celsus – Book 1; Chapter 28’).

In Chapter 32 of his work, Origen writes:

‘Let us return, however, to the words put into the mouth of the Jew, where the mother of Jesus is described as having been turned out by the carpenter who was betrothed to her, "as she had been convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera”’.

Henry Chadwick, in his translation of the ‘Contra Celsus, writes:

‘The title Jesus ben Panthera is not uncommon in the Talmud……. Eusebius, commenting on Hos. v. 14 (‘Return, Israel, to the Lord your God. Your sins have been your downfall!’) says: ‘The text may be quoted against those of the circumcision who slanderously and abusively assert that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was born of Panthera Epiphanius’

Peter Schäfer, a noted scholar in the field of ancient Judaism and early Christianity, and one-time Ronald O. Perelman Professor of Judaic Studies at Princeton University, writes:

‘But nevertheless, the (Babylonian) Talmud seems to be convinced that (Yeshua’s) true father was Pandera, his mother’s lover, and that he was a ******* in the full sense of the word.’ (‘Jesus in the Talmud’).

Could this be the ‘terrible slander’ that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to? I know of no other.

There is no mention of this slander in the Gospels – nor in any of the Epistles – so one may suppose that the authors of these works knew nothing of an ‘adulterous Mary.’

It is likely – perhaps very likely – that those who spoke ill of Mary lived in the late 1st or early 2nd Century, and therefore (of course) could not have been witnesses to the events of Yeshua’s life.

There are tafâsîr (interpretations of the Qur’an) by Wahb Ibn Munabbih; Ṭabarî; Makkî Ibn Abi Ṭâlib; Qurṭubî; Ibn Kathîr; Suyûṭî; Ṭabâṭabâ’î ; and Jazâ’irî. All of them (apart from Ṭabâṭabâ’î) claim that Yeshua was not crucified, but that another was made to resemble him – and to take his place. The text provides no justification for this claim.

I opine that the words ‘though it was made to appear like that to them’ are nothing more than a reference to the notion – widespread by the 2nd century, and even more so when Al-Nisa was revealed – that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was indeed crucified.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) corrects this notion.

Continued:
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
That Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was raised alive – both body and soul – is made clear by the use of the word ‘bal’ in verse 158 (‘…… they certainly did not kill him – Nay! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’).

Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri explains that when the term ‘bal’, which he renders ‘on the contrary’:

‘Comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics

‘If we say that "the ascension here is a spiritual one" and "the Prophet Jesus (as) died in the normal sense," then we are violating that rule. In that case, the ascension following the expression "on the contrary" would not represent the opposite to the verbs of "killing" and "crucifying" in the negative sentence preceding it. That is because it may be possible for a person to be killed and for his or her soul to rise to the skies. Otherwise, this term would be meaningless, and there are no meaningless terms in the Qur'an …

‘According to those who support the thesis that the ascension is only one of the soul, the meaning of the verse is this: "They did not kill him and did not crucify him … on the contrary (‘bal’), Allah raised his station." There is no particular oratory here, let alone succinctness … No rational person could take the words "The elevator in my building raises me to the fourth floor every day," to mean that I am only raised to the fourth floor in spirit. Therefore, neither was the Prophet Jesus (as) raised only in spirit. (‘Position of Reason’; my emphasis).

Referring to this same verse, Said Ramadan al-Buti writes:

‘The mutual compatibility between the verses’ previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." …… The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement. (Islamic Catechism: page 338).

Equally correct are the words: ‘Yeshua did not die; on the contrary (‘bal’), he was raised alive.’

Concerning the words: ‘Allāh raised (‘rafaʿahu’) him up to Himself.’

The word ‘raise’ renders ‘rafa‘a’ (‘to raise’) rather than ‘ba‘atha’, which is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean ‘to resurrect’ after death. Commenting on this, Abu Musa al-Ash'ari writes:

‘There is a consensus among the community of the faithful that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised alive to the heavens.’ (‘al-Ibana 'an Usul al-Diyana); and Hasan Basri Cantay writes: ‘Allah raised and lifted up the Prophet Jesus (as) in both body and soul.’ (Tafsir of the Qur'an); and Imam ibn Taymiyya writes: ‘The verse "He raised him to His Presence" … explains that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised in both body and soul.’ (Majmu' Fatawa).

Citing Al-Nisa' 157-158, Zahid al-Kawthari claims that the ascension of Yeshua is beyond doubt: ‘That is because the basic meaning of the word rafa'a in the verses is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honour and station.’ (Nazra 'Abira fi Maza'im; page 93; my emphasis).

In order to show that the Qur’an supports the New Testament narrative one must find other Qur’anic verses that contradict Al-Nisa: 155-158. There are none.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was raised alive – both body and soul – is made clear by the use of the word ‘bal’ in verse 158 (‘…… they certainly did not kill him – Nay! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’).

Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri explains that when the term ‘bal’, which he renders ‘on the contrary’:

‘Comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics

‘If we say that "the ascension here is a spiritual one" and "the Prophet Jesus (as) died in the normal sense," then we are violating that rule. In that case, the ascension following the expression "on the contrary" would not represent the opposite to the verbs of "killing" and "crucifying" in the negative sentence preceding it. That is because it may be possible for a person to be killed and for his or her soul to rise to the skies. Otherwise, this term would be meaningless, and there are no meaningless terms in the Qur'an …

‘According to those who support the thesis that the ascension is only one of the soul, the meaning of the verse is this: "They did not kill him and did not crucify him … on the contrary (‘bal’), Allah raised his station." There is no particular oratory here, let alone succinctness … No rational person could take the words "The elevator in my building raises me to the fourth floor every day," to mean that I am only raised to the fourth floor in spirit. Therefore, neither was the Prophet Jesus (as) raised only in spirit. (‘Position of Reason’; my emphasis).

Referring to this same verse, Said Ramadan al-Buti writes:

‘The mutual compatibility between the verses’ previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." …… The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement. (Islamic Catechism: page 338).

Equally correct are the words: ‘Yeshua did not die; on the contrary (‘bal’), he was raised alive.’

Concerning the words: ‘Allāh raised (‘rafaʿahu’) him up to Himself.’

The word ‘raise’ renders ‘rafa‘a’ (‘to raise’) rather than ‘ba‘atha’, which is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean ‘to resurrect’ after death. Commenting on this, Abu Musa al-Ash'ari writes:

‘There is a consensus among the community of the faithful that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised alive to the heavens.’ (‘al-Ibana 'an Usul al-Diyana); and Hasan Basri Cantay writes: ‘Allah raised and lifted up the Prophet Jesus (as) in both body and soul.’ (Tafsir of the Qur'an); and Imam ibn Taymiyya writes: ‘The verse "He raised him to His Presence" … explains that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised in both body and soul.’ (Majmu' Fatawa).

Citing Al-Nisa' 157-158, Zahid al-Kawthari claims that the ascension of Yeshua is beyond doubt: ‘That is because the basic meaning of the word rafa'a in the verses is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honour and station.’ (Nazra 'Abira fi Maza'im; page 93; my emphasis).

In order to show that the Qur’an supports the New Testament narrative one must find other Qur’anic verses that contradict Al-Nisa: 155-158. There are none.

Adnan Oktar?
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Adnan Oktar?

I know him as Harun Yahya - having watched a few of his programmes on an Islamic TV channel (while still a Catholic), in my very early explorations of Islam. I've not read any of his works, and so cannot comment on them.

What would he add to this discussion?
 
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