The bait & switch on discussions of materialism

[Wildswanderer]

There are no such thing as 'laws of logic.' And no actual laws used in science are prescriptive. They're descriptive. None of us think laws cause things to happen.

The laws of nature don't cause things? If they didn't exist what would happen? And you missed the point. There's no reason to think logic is valid in a universe where you are just a cog in a wheel of endless blind causation.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The laws of nature don't cause things? If they didn't exist what would happen? And you missed the point. There's no reason to think logic is valid in a universe where you are just a cog in a wheel of endless blind causation.

No. Laws of nature don't cause anything. When we talk about the law of gravity (or gravitational theory), we aren't talking about the law causing the apple to fall. We're talking about relationships between massive bodies. The law is a description, not a prescription, that describes those relationships, not some external force.

And I don't understand why you would think logic is about anything else than 'blind causational causes.' That's literally what they're about. The purest logic description is "if; then."

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Lol, that's still chance. Get real.

When you drop something, does it fall by chance?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Again it's very unlikely that your little group is the only one who has the truth.

Did you even read what I said?
It sounds like you didn't.

I can only repeat myself: what humans have in common is a tendency to engage in cognition errors.
This leads to superstitious beliefs. Many of such beliefs are religious in nature, but it doesn't have to be.

I also said that as atheists are humans, they are not immune to such cognition errors.

At best, atheists might perhaps be more protected against it as they are more likely to be aware of it. Being aware of your human weaknesses makes it easier to avoid them.

What you dismiss as superstition is reality to most.

Off course.
To alien abductees, their alien abduction is very much reality. They'll even pass lie detector tests.
That's kind of the thing with beliefs ha... if you believe something is true, then that something is part of your perceived reality.

So you are just stating the obvious.

Atheism is actually self contradictory, BTW.

That is impossible, since atheism makes no claims.
Making claims is a prerequisite of being potentially self-contradicting.

Theism makes the claims. Atheism is what you default to when you don't believe theistic claims.

If atheism were true

"True" and "false" are words that are not applicable to atheism. Because, again, there are no claims associated with atheism. So there's nothing there to be true or false.

THEISM can be true or false. THEISM is a collection of claims.
Believing those claims, makes you a theist.
Not believing those claims, makes you an atheist.

, an atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic that he constantly appeals to, because such laws would not be meaningful.

That makes no sense whatsoever.
Logic is not dependent on a magic man in the sky existing or not.
Things are the way they are, regardless of gods existing or not.

How can they be in a world created by chance?

1. strawman

2. again: things are the way they are, regardless of how they originated. 1+1 equals 2. Regardless of gods existing or not.

3. argument from ignorance

Logic is whatever nature implants in you

No.

and therefore has no higher meaning at all.

This again is nonsensical. Logic doesn't require, or have, "meaning".

Logic is about valid reasoning. If a is bigger then b and b is bigger then c, then a is bigger then c.
What "meaning"?

I like to call the atheist version of logic " universe farts" because they are nothing real, just hot air.

I call your post a pathetic attempt at trying to be clever and divert from the actual points raised, in the hope that people will forget about it.

Dodgeball champion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The laws of nature don't cause things? If they didn't exist what would happen? And you missed the point. There's no reason to think logic is valid in a universe where you are just a cog in a wheel of endless blind causation.

1. you jumped from "laws of logic" to "laws of nature". Regardless of the first not actually being a thing, it should be clear that you are moving the goal posts.

2. no, the laws of nature don't cause anything. They are instead just our abstract descriptions of how the universe works. The law of gravity doesn't "cause" gravity nor does it "cause" things to fall. Instead, it just describes what gravity does.

 

[Wildswanderer]

When you drop something, does it fall by chance?

Not in my universe. But in the one you imagine where there's no God, no design behind nature? Of course. It would be pure chance that causes gravity to work.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This again is nonsensical. Logic doesn't require, or have, "meaning".

Of course it does. If there's nothing behind the curtain there's no reason to think that anything you think is logical. You just admitted you might be totally talking gibberish and you can't do otherwise.
Logic is completely subjective if there's no purpose to the universe existing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Logic is about valid reasoning.

Reasoning can't be valid if nothing guides the process that creates you. You would be nothing but a machine doing what chance programs you to do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Reasoning can't be valid if nothing guides the process that creates you. You would be nothing but a machine doing what chance programs you to do.

So:

- is God nothing but a machine doing what chance programs him to do, or
- did something guide the process that created God?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not in my universe. But in the one you imagine where there's no God, no design behind nature? Of course. It would be pure chance that causes gravity to work.

In everyone's universe gravity doesn't work because a god makes it work. It works because the properties between massive objects makes gravity a natural consequence of interaction. There's no chance involved.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Of course it does. If there's nothing behind the curtain there's no reason to think that anything you think is logical. You just admitted you might be totally talking gibberish and you can't do otherwise.
Logic is completely subjective if there's no purpose to the universe existing.

Logic isn't based on appeal to authority.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Reasoning can't be valid if nothing guides the process that creates you. You would be nothing but a machine doing what chance programs you to do.

Reasoning is also not based on appeal to authority. Lol

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again it's very unlikely that your little group is the only one who has the truth. What you dismiss as superstition is reality to most.
Atheism is actually self contradictory, BTW.
If atheism were true, an atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic that he constantly appeals to, because such laws would not be meaningful. How can they be in a world created by chance? Logic is whatever nature implants in you and therefore has no higher meaning at all. I like to call the atheist version of logic " universe farts" because they are nothing real, just hot air.

Sounds like someone's took some presuppositional apologetics YouTube channels a bit too seriously.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Sounds like someone's took some presuppositional apologetics YouTube channels a bit too seriously.

Not even that as they usually wouldn't try and make logic, reasoning and purpose interchangeable terms.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Reasoning is also not based on appeal to authority. Lol

That's not an answer. Maybe you are too thick to understand what I'm saying,,?

 

[Wildswanderer]

In everyone's universe gravity doesn't work because a god makes it work. It works because the properties between massive objects makes gravity a natural consequence of interaction. There's no chance involved.

Whoosh! How did the laws that regulate gravity come about? Magic?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That's not an answer. Maybe you are too thick to understand what I'm saying,,?

Or maybe you're using terms you're not understanding.

Whoosh! How did the laws that regulate gravity come about? Magic?

Laws did not 'come about' through anything. Laws are how we describe the relationship between mass and energy. Again, laws aren't prescriptive, they're descriptive.

 

[Heyo]

Whoosh! How did the laws that regulate gravity come about? Magic?

We don't know - yet.

I'm assuming here that with "the laws that regulate gravity" you mean "what gives gravity the properties it has".
Your answer to that is "god". We can't disprove that - yet. 300 years ago your answer would have been not disprovable if the question was "what causes lightning".
You propose a "god of the gaps".

The gaps have narrowed and they will narrow further. Today, if you propose a god that created the universe and the natural laws and constants, you only get a deos. A god which's work has been done in the first 10⁻⁴³ seconds after the initial start of this universe. Everything from then on was predetermined by the properties of the matter and forces.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not in my universe. But in the one you imagine where there's no God, no design behind nature? Of course. It would be pure chance that causes gravity to work.

This again makes no sense at all.

Even as an empty, baseless, bare assertion... it is mindbogglingly absurd.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course it does.

It doesn't.
As I said in the post, in the parts you are ignoring:

A is bigger then B
B is bigger then C
Therefor, A is bigger then C.

What "meaning"?

If there's nothing behind the curtain

What curtain? What on earth are you babbling about?

there's no reason to think that anything you think is logical.

Yes there is. It's called objective evidence.

Logic, in a very real sense, is no more or less then abstract description of real world things.

2+2 = 4.

I can take 2 apples, add another 2 apples and then count 4 apples, confirming the logic above.

I understand that you didn't think that "far" ahead though. I mean, it's not like evidence plays an important role in your "reasoning" processes.

You just admitted you might be totally talking gibberish and you can't do otherwise.

I admitted no such thing. Like so many other things, it seems this only occurred between your ears.

Logic is completely subjective if there's no purpose to the universe existing.

Nope.

2+2 equals 4.
Regardless of there being purpose to the universe or gods existing.

IN FACT, if anything: the opposite is true.
If we allow for magic / supernatural shenannigans (which by definition is the suspension / violation of natural law), THEN logic can't be trusted.

Because 2 apples could then be magicked into 7 apples.

Logic would dictate that if you jump out of the empire state building without a parachute, you won't live to tell the story by the time you touch the ground.
But if we allow for magic to happen, then such can't be said. Because an "angel" could appear and catch you on you way down and make sure you land safely.

So logic only works, because the laws of nature are consistent and reliable.
In a world where the supernatural operates, that is no longer the case.