The Balance of the Force

[Mathematician]

Greetings, my brothers and sisters.

Most RF users are aware of the circumstances surrounding the Jedi in the Star Wars trilogies, but I want to briefly run through some of it before bringing my questions to your attention:

There existed an old prophecy that told of a chosen person bringing balance to the Force. When the slave boy Anakin was discovered by Master Qui Gon Jin the great Jedi Master believed this boy would bring the Galactic Republic out of the ashes of corruption.

After Master Qui Gon was slayed, Anakin Skywalker became the padawan of Master Obi Wan Kenobi. By this time the Jedi Council were facing the challenge of an ongoing war with the Separatists and the rebirth of the Sith. Master Obi Wan trusted in his fallen master's decision and taught Skywalker to the best of his abilities, only to have Anakin turn his back on the Jedi and the Republic. Nonetheless, the corruption was put down and the Separatists destroyed.

This does bring up some interesting questions: were the Jedi blind to their own prophecy? Did Anakin bring balance to the Force by restoring the might of the Dark Side, or was the prophecy actually talking about Luke Skywalker? Of course we may never know if the prophecy was authentic.

Lastly, was Master Ben (Obi Wan) reviewing the prophecy when he allowed Lord Vader to strike him down? Did he realize, like Yoda, that the only persons able to defeat the Emperor's malice were Luke and Leia?

 

[silvermoon383]

I always thought that the propecy was fulfilled by Darth Vader plunging the Force into darkness since that would balance out the millenia of Light.

 

[eudaimonia]

An even more important question: Was the George Lucas of the recent trilogy swayed to the Dark Side of the Force, as suggested by their low quality?

 

[doppelganger]

Those are interesting questions, Gene. If Anakin is the prophesied one, he didn't plunge the force into darkness. He actually killed all the Jedi and the Sith. After all, it was he, and not Luke, who killed the Emperor (ROTJ).

At the end, the only practitioner of the Force that remains is a person who knows all too well that both the "light side" and "dark side" are within him. The "good" Jedi who "never speak in absolutes" but declare things to be evil and who only imagined that they had separated themselves from their fear, are gone. So, too, are the Sith, who don't imagine they are separate from their emotions, but draw their power from giving way only to those emotions that further their power and advantage.

It is very Tao.

 

[Gentoo]

I always thought that the "balance of the force" referred to numbers, there were countless Jedi compared to a couple of Sith.

Anakin 'brought' balance to the Force by killing off almost all of the Jedi until it was Anakin and Palpatine contrasted by Yoda and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was replaced by Luke in Jedi ranks. Yoda died, then Palpatine died too. Anakin was brought back by Luke before he died until all that's left is Luke; who had been tempted by the Dark Side.

So in the end, you have a young Jedi who knows of the Dark Side's influence and behavior. Anakin was Luke's father, and through him, brought balance to the Force.

 

[lilithu]

Greetings, my brothers and sisters.

Most RF users are aware of the circumstances surrounding the Jedi in the Star Wars trilogies, but I want to briefly run through some of it before bringing my questions to your attention:

There existed an old prophecy that told of a chosen person bringing balance to the Force. When the slave boy Anakin was discovered by Master Qui Gon Jin the great Jedi Master believed this boy would bring the Galactic Republic out of the ashes of corruption.

After Master Qui Gon was slayed, Anakin Skywalker became the padawan of Master Obi Wan Kenobi. By this time the Jedi Council were facing the challenge of an ongoing war with the Separatists and the rebirth of the Sith. Master Obi Wan trusted in his fallen master's decision and taught Skywalker to the best of his abilities, only to have Anakin turn his back on the Jedi and the Republic. Nonetheless, the corruption was put down and the Separatists destroyed.

This does bring up some interesting questions: were the Jedi blind to their own prophecy? Did Anakin bring balance to the Force by restoring the might of the Dark Side, or was the prophecy actually talking about Luke Skywalker? Of course we may never know if the prophecy was authentic.

Lastly, was Master Ben (Obi Wan) reviewing the prophecy when he allowed Lord Vader to strike him down? Did he realize, like Yoda, that the only persons able to defeat the Emperor's malice were Luke and Leia?

Midrash on Star Wars, kewl!

Gene (or anyone else), can you tell me what the exact wording of the prophecy was?

As for Obi Wan, I don't think it had just to do with believing that only Luke/Leia could defeat the Emperor. First of all, I take what he said to Vader literally. "If you strike me down, I shall only become more powerful..." again, I don't remember the exact words but it was true. Obi Wan understood that a person doesn't exist as just an individual, that we are one with the Force, and understanding this, at the end of his mortal life he joins with the Force. Second, I think he knew that only in this greater state could he help Luke do what was necessary to destroy the Death Star.

Dopp, Lucas has actually said in an interview that the Force is modeled after the Tao. And that he wanted to instill a new religion into popular culture that wasn't based on the Abrahamic traditions.

But guys.... for all this talk of balancing light and dark and whether or not it was Anakin or Luke that was the fulfilment of prophecy.... in the end, it was neither Luke nor Vader who destroyed the Emperor. In the end it was LOVE. Neither one of them could have done it alone. Anakin's love for his son is what the Emperor did not count on and what finally did him in.

And tada!, the good guys beat the bad guys and they all lived happily ever after, including the cute little marketable ewoks.

 

[Mathematician]

Those are interesting questions, Gene. If Anakin is the prophesied one, he didn't plunge the force into darkness. He actually killed all the Jedi and the Sith. After all, it was he, and not Luke, who killed the Emperor (ROTJ).

At the end, the only practitioner of the Force that remains is a person who knows all too well that both the "light side" and "dark side" are within him. The "good" Jedi who "never speak in absolutes" but declare things to be evil and who only imagined that they had separated themselves from their fear, are gone. So, too, are the Sith, who don't imagine they are separate from their emotions, but draw their power from giving way only to those emotions that further their power and advantage.

It is very Tao.

Very interesting post!

It is clear (to me) that Luke was unlike previous Jedi seen through-out the series. During his final battle with Darth Vader he attempted to remain defensive until Leia was mentioned -- then the Dark Side, the emotion of anger, controlled him. But once Luke cut off Vader's hand, he saw the machinary and related it to his own lost hand. Could this be symbolic of him accepting that Vader and him were not so different? Previously Jedi were commited to ridding themselves of emotions, but they never accepted the fact that no one can truly be separate from one's feelings. I'm convinced in the final hour of the movie Luke became aware of his own faults.

If you remember, Skywalker becomes a pacifist so that he can influence his father's feelings. Interesting how living by your feelings is a distinct trait of the Dark Side. I think this further proves my point that aligning yourself with the Dark Side doesn't necessarily mean you're evil. You can be openly influenced by the emotions of love, agony, and sympathy as well as hate and anger. A separate occassion also existed in the 3rd movie: Anakin was motivated to join the Dark Side out of love for Padme and order.


I believe this was the prophecy, which leaves me to believe Anakin was the chosen one:

"… and in the time of greatest despair,
there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:
THE SON OF THE SUNS."
— Journal of the Whills, 3:127

In the end it was LOVE. Neither one of them could have done it alone. Anakin's love for his son is what the Emperor did not count on and what finally did him in.

I came to the same conclusion! Cool! Chears to thinkers!

 

[painted wolf]

I always thought that Luke going all "grey Jedi" was more in keeping with the balance of the force thing.

The whole boy and girl twin children also can't be counted out in the ballance equasion.

regardless the movies have always been Vaders redemption story.

wa:do

 

[lilithu]

I think this further proves my point that aligning yourself with the Dark Side doesn't necessarily mean you're evil. You can be openly influenced by the emotions of love, agony, and sympathy as well as hate and anger. A separate occassion also existed in the 3rd movie: Anakin was motivated to join the Dark Side out of love for Padme and order.

There are two different emotions that both get refered to by the word "love." There is "love" that causes you to want to give of yourself for the well-being of another. And there is "love" that causes you to want to control others for the sake of your own desires. When Vader killed the Emperor, at the risk of his own life, for Luke's sake, he was exhibiting the first kind of "love" (and in the process became Anakin). When Anakin went on his killing spree "for Padme and order", he was driven by the second kind of "love" (and in the process became Vader). IMO they are not the same at all.

regardless the movies have always been Vaders redemption story.

That was the point I was trying to make. For all the talk about the dark and light side and balance in the Force - for all the Taoism that Lucas tried to introduce into the story - ultimately, it still fell back to a Christian point of view. Redemption thru love.

 

[painted wolf]

Oh I agree the Christian influence is enormous. It is a very typical European hero myth.

wa:do

 

[gnostic]

Unrelated to the OP, I have a question in regarding to SW.

How faithful are the films to the series of books?

 

[silvermoon383]

The only thing I've seen so far where the books and the movies disagree is who Luke and Leia's mother is. There was a book trilogy (the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy) where Luke went searching for their mother, and in the clues he was finding she wasn't Padme Amidala (the trilogy was written before Ep. 1-3).

Nowadays they've fixed that problem and have Luke and Leia finding out about their mother through R2-D2, and so far the info is from holo-clips R2 had been storing for all this time. This is happening in the Dark Nest trilogy.

Otherwise, they're both quite faithful.

 

[SoyLeche]

regardless the movies have always been Vaders redemption story.

wa:do

I have wondered if that is the answer. Anakin was the only person, at least that anyone knows about, who gave himself entirely over to the Dark Side and came back to the Good Side afterwards. Maybe that's the ballance

 

[painted wolf]

unless you count the books... then Luke has this habit of dancing on the line between Light and Dark.
Since he is the last one, either Jedi or Sith, it makes sence that he is a bit 'grey'.

wa:do

 

[SoyLeche]

unless you count the books... then Luke has this habit of dancing on the line between Light and Dark.
Since he is the last one, either Jedi or Sith, it makes sence that he is a bit 'grey'.

wa:do

I've never read the books. I might think about it some day

 

[XAAX]

Greetings, my brothers and sisters.

Most RF users are aware of the circumstances surrounding the Jedi in the Star Wars trilogies, but I want to briefly run through some of it before bringing my questions to your attention:

There existed an old prophecy that told of a chosen person bringing balance to the Force. When the slave boy Anakin was discovered by Master Qui Gon Jin the great Jedi Master believed this boy would bring the Galactic Republic out of the ashes of corruption.

After Master Qui Gon was slayed, Anakin Skywalker became the padawan of Master Obi Wan Kenobi. By this time the Jedi Council were facing the challenge of an ongoing war with the Separatists and the rebirth of the Sith. Master Obi Wan trusted in his fallen master's decision and taught Skywalker to the best of his abilities, only to have Anakin turn his back on the Jedi and the Republic. Nonetheless, the corruption was put down and the Separatists destroyed.

This does bring up some interesting questions: were the Jedi blind to their own prophecy? Did Anakin bring balance to the Force by restoring the might of the Dark Side, or was the prophecy actually talking about Luke Skywalker? Of course we may never know if the prophecy was authentic.

Lastly, was Master Ben (Obi Wan) reviewing the prophecy when he allowed Lord Vader to strike him down? Did he realize, like Yoda, that the only persons able to defeat the Emperor's malice were Luke and Leia?

Gene, I am also a huge starwars fan. I have asked these same questions as well as others. One that always got me was when Darth killed Obi Wan...Obi Wan was talking crap and said "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine", yet when he does...thats it...Obi Wan never does. At least they should have had him do something to reflect his statement. Anyway, although I am not sure to the answers of your questions. One that has me wanting to string up Lucas. I loved the first 3 originals, loved the last three, I was waiting for the build up of where Darth starts kicking everlovin *** killing all the jedi across the universe in the clone wars...What does Lucas decide to do at what I would say is one of the best parts(where he becomes Vader), he ends it there and decides to turn it into a cartoon....what the hell is that??:slap:

 

[lilithu]

One that always got me was when Darth killed Obi Wan...Obi Wan was talking crap and said "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine", yet when he does...thats it...Obi Wan never does. At least they should have had him do something to reflect his statement.

What are you talkin about? Obi Wan joined with the Force. He became greater than any one person can be. He influenced Luke at a crucial moment to allow him destroy the Death Star in the first (fourth) movie. He's there in the third (last) with Yoda and Anakin. He's there all the time, omnipresent, pervasive. He was more powerful than Vader could imagine because Vader couldn't imagine anything beyond the individual... until the end that is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

there were countless Jedi compared to a couple of Sith.

That is because thier is a code the Sith follow. Thier are always two. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice. This part of thier code arose after The Sith Wars. The Sith were numerous, and allthough I don't remember the exact reasons why, they destroyed eachother. Only two survived, and it was made a law then that would only be two Sith, to prevent another war.

IMO, Anakin/Vader fulfilled the prophecy when he was redemed, and he made Luke, that last surviving Jedi, realise thier is good and bad in both the Dark and Light side.

At least they should have had him do something to reflect his statement.

He did tell Luke to use the Force, rather than relying on the machines that had failed, causing the destruction of the Death Star. He also revealed himself to Luke on Hoth, telling him to seek Yoda. Obi dying at that point in time was as critical to the story line as was Jar Jar being elected to the senate.

 

[SoyLeche]

That is because thier is a code the Sith follow. Thier are always two. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice. This part of thier code arose after The Sith Wars. The Sith were numerous, and allthough I don't remember the exact reasons why, they destroyed eachother. Only two survived, and it was made a law then that would only be two Sith, to prevent another war.

Again - I have never read the books, but I thought that the "only two" thing was more of a result of what the Sith are than a law. Since they desire power so much, when a third joins the ranks, invariably two of them will join up and kill the other. You see it happening all the time. Dooku tries to get Obi Wan to join him and kill Sidius. Sidius gets Anakin to kill Dooku. Both Darth Vader and the Emperor try to convince Luke to join them and kill the other.

 

[gnostic]

In tPM film, we see Sith, master and apprentice. Was that "master" supposed to be Palpatine?