SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
My mother-in-law "looks like a man" sometimes, if you see her from the back. That doesn't mean she is one.
Women and men come in all shapes, and fall along a broad spectrum of "masculine" and "feminine."
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The Baseless and Inaccurate Attacks on an Algerian Female Boxer
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Women and men come in all shapes, and fall along a broad spectrum of "masculine" and "feminine."
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Which is why I said to genetically test all boxers. To clarify, I meant at the Olympics. You know, for safety reasons. It's not even an invasive test!
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I don't think genetic tests indicate hormone levels.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Augustus
…
Contingent on being an elite athlete, XY and high testosterone will almost certainly go together, but people should be tested before they reach the elite level. The majority of women athletes (unsurprisingly) also support such testing.
But the genetic test can just be used as a screening and if it returns an anomaly then they can confirm with other tests.
People have to choose between exposing female boxers to significant risk by forcing them to fight biological males against their will, or using some form of sex screaming. Too many people want to think they can be inclusive while avoiding the acceptance that this forced women to be punched repeatedly by biological males and some will suffer life changing injuries as a result.
I haven't seen a single person in this thread accept that that is the certain result of their advocacy.
The following has recently been published in a scientific journal and is authored by numerous leading scientists in the field.
Fair and Safe Eligibility Criteria for Women's Sport [Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports]
The Paris 2024 Olympic boxing competition, featuring athletes with alleged male advantages in the female category, has reinvigorated controversy about eligibility criteria for women's sport. Recently, in this journal [1], we explained how endogenous testosterone production during male development leads to performance advantages arising from well-established sexbased differences in body size, muscle mass, endurance, speed, strength, and power. These physical advantages are so large that they necessitate a separate and protected female category that excludes male advantage to ensure fair and safe competition for female athletes. The unfortunate developments in the 2024 Olympic Games compel these matters to be revisited.
During press conferences at the 2024 Olympic Games, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) invited solutions to address eligibility for women's sport. We take this opportunity to propose our solution, which includes: (a) recognizing that female sport that excludes all male advantage is necessary for female inclusion; (b) recognizing that exclusion from female sport should be based on the presence of any male development, rather than current testosterone levels, (c) not privileging legal “passport” sex or gender identity for inclusion into female sport; and (d) accepting that sport must have means of testing eligibility to fulfill the category purpose.
.. there is ample evidence that biological sex is a crucial differentiator in ensuring fairness and influencing safety for female athletes [1]. The participation of male-born competitors (e.g., transgender women) and athletes with certain XY DSDs in female sport is a growing concern. These athletes experience male-typical development from testes producing testosterone, with resultant physiological differences creating athletic advantages and safety risks [4–6], even in athletes with XY DSDs who might have been observed as female at birth.
The ethical failures of sports federations in the past cannot be allowed to obstruct accessible solutions to such an important issue in women's sport. The ethical framework that governs modern genetic testing is thorough and, importantly to overcome the shortcomings of the past, it emphasizes individual consent, confidentiality, and dignity. Current technology enables a screening procedure for “sports sex” that involves a simple cheek swab to determine sex chromosomes. This screen can be performed reliably and quickly and should be done in duplicate to ensure reliable results. The results of this sex chromosome screening should be used to indicate the need for follow-up tests as part of standard medical care, including counseling and psychological support as part othe ongoing duty of care to the athlete. This will permit greater understanding of a potential medical condition, but also allow for an evidence-based assessment of male advantage in sport [5]. However, to preserve confidentiality and dignity, athletes must be screened early—perhaps when they first register in the female category in an affiliated competition and before they are thrust into the global spotlight. This would prevent the individual targeting and unsolicited public scrutiny that has occurred numerous times, most recently in the 2024 Olympic Games.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Khelif has been tested by the IBA and it seems has been shown to be a make chromisomally. I say "it seems" because the test results have not been made public but logic points to him/her being chromosomally male.
The IOC knows the results of the test but the IOC says it does not use the IBA. It seems that the IOC wants to be inclusive and uses birth certificates or passports etc to see if someone is male of female, but that does not tell us if they are biologically male of female.
In the meantime biological males beat up biological females in the boxing ring and win gold medals for doing it because the IOC want to be inclusive instead of being fair.
And many people think that this is a fantastic situation and should continue like this.
Augustus
…
I’m not sure they do. They prefer the ostrich approach.
Many people like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it’s just a Russian conspiracy uncritically accepted by right wing bigots. If they pretend the evidence doesn’t exist they can pretend they are on an unimpeachable moral high ground.
Many also like to pretend you can be fully inclusive without forcing women to face significant risk by fighting biological males. Hence you get some platitudes about there being more than one way to be a woman, etc. Others try to muddy the waters about the science behind male advantage and pretend it’s just the same as a swimmer having slightly bigger feet than others.
I’m sure some must exist, but I’ve never seen anyone simply acknowledge that they accept the science behind male advantage, that this creates significant higher risk of life changing injury, that it gives an unmatchable advantage to the biological males but consider inclusion to be more important than safety and fairness.
@Debater Slayer you might be interested in this discussion.
This is not a polemicist or culture warrior, but a Professor in sports science who has been involved in crafting the regulations for World Rugby, and also as an expert advisor in the legal cases around Caster Semenya.
It is a very nuanced and reasoned discussion regarding the science of DSD and why people raised as females and who view themselves as females may technically be biologically male and have undergone male puberty.
As such these athletes are not females with elevated testosterone, but males with normal levels of testosterone who have a DSD that prevents it from being used in the same way as most males.
Either they have androgen insensitivity, or can process it fully except for the part that causes male genitalia to develop.
They are clear that it is not necessarily people “pretending” to be female, but do point out it only usually happens in the developing world as it is not identified and treated when they are young.
It’s about 45 mins long, but it is very interesting as regards the science.
Paris 2024: Males Are About To Fight in Women's Boxing. How Did We Get Here? | The Real Science of Sport Podcast
Controversy in Paris as biological males compete in women's boxing and football. We explore the issuesshows.acast.com
Sorry for the very delayed reply; this is the first time I have logged on in a few weeks.
Thanks for the link. It's nice to hear the input of a medical professional on the issue away from politics.
From what I have read about Imane Khelif's condition since, it seems reasonable to me that some restrictions may be needed in the case of at least some athletes with DSD in order to preserve fairness and, in combat sports, safety. I don't see it as a question of whether she's a woman, as she definitely is; it's just that, given the physical traits obtained from male puberty (if an athlete with DSD has gone through it) and certain levels of testosterone, I see no way around picking between inclusion and fairness and, in some cases, safety. It's unfortunate, but there don't seem to be any solutions that can achieve both at this time.
Augustus
…
Worth a quick revisit: strangely enough, the person who was very outspoken after winning the Olympic gold about how this “restored her honour”, has still not yet taken up the opportunity to further restore her honour in the law courts while massively enriching herself at the expense of those who tried to ruin her life with easily disproven and highly malicious lies.
I wonder why…
I wonder why…
The last update I found on the lawsuit was published in August:
JK Rowling and Elon Musk named in Imane Khelif cyberbullying lawsuit
Algerian Olympic champion boxer files criminal complaint in France against X over alleged ‘cyber-harassment’
JK Rowling and Elon Musk reportedly named in Imane Khelif complaint
The Paris public prosecutor's office says it has launched a cyberbullying probe.
www.bbc.co.uk
I'm not sure how long such a case could take to resolve or how even a ruling in Khelif's favor would be enforced anyway, since neither Rowling nor Musk lives in France. I also think that the vile bullying to which Khelif was subjected is a separate issue from whether athletes who have DSD should be able to compete in boxing against those who don't have it. One could recognize the need for safety and fairness in sports without stoking hateful flames online like Rowling and Musk have.
Augustus
…
The last update I found on the lawsuit was published in August:
JK Rowling and Elon Musk named in Imane Khelif cyberbullying lawsuit
Algerian Olympic champion boxer files criminal complaint in France against X over alleged ‘cyber-harassment’www.theguardian.com
JK Rowling and Elon Musk reportedly named in Imane Khelif complaint
The Paris public prosecutor's office says it has launched a cyberbullying probe.www.bbc.co.uk
I'm not sure how long such a case could take to resolve or how even a ruling in Khelif's favor would be enforced anyway, since neither Rowling nor Musk lives in France. I also think that the vile bullying to which Khelif was subjected is a separate issue from whether athletes who have DSD should be able to compete in boxing against those who don't have it. One could recognize the need for safety and fairness in sports without stoking hateful flames online like Rowling and Musk have.
She can sue JK Rowling in a UK court for libel, and has an easier and more lucrative case than “cyber bullying” (assuming Rowling is wrong).
I don't know what the reasoning is for her specific choice of how to proceed with the lawsuit (e.g., the reasoning for not suing elsewhere or on different grounds), but I do think it might be a good idea to go after Rowling's comments that imputed ill intent to Khelif—where Rowling baselessly claimed that Khelif was "enjoying the distress of a woman he [sic] has just punched in the head."
Regardless of how the lawsuit concludes, though, I find it quite unfortunate that the online diatribes have largely clouded and overshadowed an important discussion that could have been had much more reasonably.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It also didn't get discussed this what antitrans rhetoric gets us, and that is it's not unusual or uncommon for cis-women to be made victims of it. They don't care what damage it does, you must be this feminine to pass or you aren't a woman (even if you physically came out the womb that way).
When the Bible is one's biology text,
reality becomes irrelevant...even
something to fight against.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
True fact, I was actually taught women have an extra set of ribs men don't have, this being to Jehovah taking a rib from Adam to make Eve. No joke, they seriously believe that to be true.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The version I heard argued was even worse. It was one rib. Not a set. Which would mean that men had one more rib on one side than the other.
Samael_Khan
Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
We all know why she was singled out as being trans: to fuel the manufactured culture war narrative that the right use for political propaganda. And the Italian woman started crying because she can't take a punch and accused the Algerian woman of being trans to scapegoat her incompetence.
Argentbear
Well-Known Member
citation?
Augustus
…
Some recent updates:
The president of the International Boxing Association has called for an apology from IOC boss Thomas Bach on behalf of the "beaten and abused" opponents of Imane Khelif, after leaked documents published in the French press alleged the Algerian gold medallist is a "biological man".
A leaked medical report, published in French magazine Le Correspondant, states Khelif has a condition known as 5-alpha reductase deficiency that affects sexual development.
The medical report from 2023 allegedly showed Khelif neither had ovaries or a uterus, had internal testicles and an XY chromosome make-up.
The report was a collaboration between French and Algerian experts in 2023 working at the Kremlin-Bicetre hospital in Paris, according to German newspaper BiLD.
Imane Khelif, the gold medal-winning boxer at the centre of the Olympic gender controversy at Paris 2024, is taking legal action over reports in France that leaked medical documents claim she has male XY chromosomes.
The Algerian boxer, who became the centre of an enormous row when her opponent, Italy’s Angela Carini, refused to fight her after 46 seconds of their bout, is understood to be taking action following claims made online and on social media platforms that reference “unverified documents whose origin cannot be confirmed”, the International Olympics Committee have claimed.
Let's see what happens and if this lawsuit ever materialises, and if so on what grounds is it being based.
Augustus
…
The main debate wasn't about her being 'trans', but about the fact that 2 'female' boxers in the Olympics had legally accepted that they were deemed ineligible for the female category after undergoing sex screening test at the world championships. The assumption was that this related to DSD and thus incorrectly assigned female at birth despite being biologically male. This is not being 'trans' and was not simply invented 'to fuel US culture wars'
Neither boxer challenged the ban at the Court of Arbitration for Sport despite it being really easy to overturn with a basic cheek swab test, and as a result the decision became legally binding.