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The Best Guide

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
................................. :oops:
How about instead of ' Do No Harm' change to ' Do Only Good ' ___________ :) just a thought.
Yes, Earth is resilient and bounces back once any pollution is stopped :)
However, even a thinking resilient Earth won't plant or cultivate a beautiful edenic flower garden.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What is the best guide?
Some say your heart. Others say your opinions, thoughts...
Some say, definitely not a book.

The latter is shocking to me, because we use books everyday, which are written by people over centuries. Some of these books are science textbooks, cookbooks, health and medical books, self-help book. You name it, books are very much a part of our lives, and they have helped millions.

Yet, some believe that when it comes to life, we don't need a book. We only need our opinions and ideas. Trial and error.

What though if a person dies because he chose to trust in and follow his own ideas and opinions?
That person never gets to see the outcome.
Yikes. :(
That's does not seem very practical to me.

It's more reasonable to have a guide.
I mean, isn't that why we are happy for good parents and teachers for the children.
If I went hiking, in foreign land, I sure would be happy to have a guide. Man... I'm telling you. ;)

When I get a manual with my brand new Dipmonade, Whew. I'm so relieved.
Don't go looking for Dipmonade. I made that up. :D

The point is, humans are happy for a more experienced person - perhaps a scientist, a doctor, mechanic, ... to guide them, or direct them. Or at least some kind of map, instruction manual, ... to show them the way.

Yet, when it comes to our lives... we want to direct our own steps.
714b8-538466.jpg

14096aaa146c5d8d4f856dc09ce2c4e2.jpg

65a0f19112214824a47cafeab7bb2275

Plastic-Bottle-Polution.png

environmental-problems-pollution_500x500.jpg

e4e4a812ac96d0533a1de86e26cab148.jpg

Yeah, I hear you Mister Urkel.
tenor.gif


LOL
I have heard in recent times many people saying, the animals seem more intelligent than humans.
I've come to understand why.

I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Jeremiah 10:23

There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs 14:12

I think the problem most people have though, is with the Bible, being of any practical value, or being useful as a guide.
What's your experience, or thoughts on the above?
Do you find it more practical to follow your own hear, feelings, thoughts, ideas, opinions... rather than a book?
Do you think the Bible can serve as a guide in our life, in any way?

I'ld say that by far, the best guides are lego instructions.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'ld say that by far, the best guides are lego instructions.

They are pretty good. My middle child is now tackling some really complex ones (the grand piano and the typewriter) and it's the first time I remember thinking 'Hmm...you have to interpret this a little...you can't quite see if you leave a 1 or 2 row space to the next brick, they really need a reverse view shown'.

It was noteworthy because of how well the instructions are generally structured and delivered.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
How about instead of ' Do No Harm' change to ' Do Only Good ' ___________ :) just a thought.
Yes, Earth is resilient and bounces back once any pollution is stopped :)
However, even a thinking resilient Earth won't plant or cultivate a beautiful edenic flower garden.
Both could be interpreted as one desired no doubt. If one complained, perhaps harm would be easier to spot - as in discrimination. :oops:
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Interesting that you say science has the advantage of changing over time which it does.
I think the United States Constitution is designed so it can have built-in changes.
Religion as far as what Jesus taught does Not have any ' disadvantage ' of changing over time.
What is written about what Jesus taught stays the same and never changes, however just as Luke forewarned us at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 an apostasy would set in, and last until the Harvest Time found at Matthew 25:31-34.
Because the Bible stays the same: it's advantage is that it does Not ever change, nor need to change, over time.
I think it is accepted of science that our earlier attempts to understand whatever is studied might not be the full picture, and hence why we often do revise opinions and beliefs. Perhaps we will never have a full understanding. I think the US constitution seems to be one of the issues in the way of ever having proper gun control, given that some will fight like hell to never alter the bit about having the right to own weapons. Not until a Civil war breaks out perhaps, and is the only way that such change might come about.

As to religions - well not so good if they got it wrong so long ago and we (collectively) are lumbered with it. The females living in Afghanistan might be aware of this. :oops:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So, you are back on square one. You have to show that your guide is reliable. And in order to do that, you have to use extra-guide arguments. Which will make your guide useless, to start with.

Ciao

- viole
Really? How so?
All I need is evidence, confirming the reliability of the guide. I do not need to use "extra-guide arguments". o_O
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Perhaps a good way to look at this is that people who give their scripture are putting their one book up against the collective wisdom and knowledge of THOUSANDS of books.
Yes, and the one book stands undefeated. So that one writer who tried everything under the sun - actually tested it out, said, "The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh. The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:11-13)

Another writer said, "How I do love your law! I ponder over it all day long. Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, Because it is with me forever. I have more insight than all my teachers, Because I ponder over your reminders. I act with more understanding than older men, Because I observe your orders. I refuse to walk on any evil path, So that I may keep your word. (Psalm 119:97-101)

The same is true today.
What served well for those in the past, serves well for us today.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A good conscience justifies their morality with good understandable reasons based on empathy, trustworthiness, and deservingness. An evil conscience has no such interests and cares not about doing the right things.
Do you find that many, or most people have "a good conscience"?

Good conscience is self evident if you have empathy, and care about trustworthiness and deservingness. No guidebook needed other than to appreciate important language, and terminology, relationships, and meanings.
How does one acquire this "good conscience", would you say?

If someone is merely following a guidebook without understanding its motives and reasons then that person has no idea what they are doing.
I think that would be similar to following a map, without knowing where you want to go.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yes, and the one book stands undefeated. So that one writer who tried everything under the sun - actually tested it out, said, "The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh. The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:11-13)

Another writer said, "How I do love your law! I ponder over it all day long. Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, Because it is with me forever. I have more insight than all my teachers, Because I ponder over your reminders. I act with more understanding than older men, Because I observe your orders. I refuse to walk on any evil path, So that I may keep your word. (Psalm 119:97-101)

The same is true today.
What served well for those in the past, serves well for us today.

I would guess that you - personally - have to do a lot of your own interpretations when you defend your book. Your book approves of slavery. It glorifies filicide (killing your own child). It centers on scape-goating. It condemns billions to an eternity of torture. And so on.

All of those things are morally and ethically barbaric. How do you account for them? Or are you of the opinion that all of those things I just listed are morally acceptable?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A book or many books, and often many opinions and/or evidence too? But trying to wade through that which is more true than false surely is better than simply believing the one book, so a more widespread appreciation of evidence from the various areas of being human, to me at least, is a more genuine approach than accepting any one belief. And hence doing enough research so as to try to understand where our beliefs might come from in the first place.

To me, it doesn't take much effort to recognise where the truth lies, as to humanity being more peaceful and respectful towards all, and anything which tends to oppose such is more than suspicious - especially when it lies within the human having such or within some particular doctrine or dogma, and especially so if the latter has come from a few thousand years ago. :oops:

Ultimately our best guide is in having a neutral upbringing, enough freedom to obtain appropriate evidence and knowledge, enough intelligence to function properly, and the desire to simply want truth over anything else - even if the truth might not be so forthcoming as and when we would like it. :oops:
Makes one wonder, where that "respectfulness" toward all came from. Where do you think it came from?
I should ask though, what you mean by respectfulness though, because that varies from person to person.

For example, some think it is disrespectful to correct someone who is "going down a wrong path".
Some even think that they should "mind their own business", and so if someone wants to kill themselve, it would be disrespectful to try to intervene.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I would guess that you - personally - have to do a lot of your own interpretations when you defend your book. Your book approves of slavery. It glorifies filicide (killing your own child). It centers on scape-goating. It condemns billions to an eternity of torture. And so on.

All of those things are morally and ethically barbaric. How do you account for them? Or are you of the opinion that all of those things I just listed are morally acceptable?
Now that you bring up interpretation, I suppose you did a lot of that, in order to arrive at those, in order to condemn the book, because for one thing, the book does not approve of slavery, which many focus on - the kind condemned by most people. For another, nowhere does the book glorify killing your own child. Nor does it center on scape-goating... whatever that means, but even if I don't know what you mean, I know it's your view... based on experience. ...and nowhere does the book condemn billions to an eternity of torture.

So that's some really heavy interpreting going on there, in an effort to condemn the book.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Do you find that many, or most people have "a good conscience"?


How does one acquire this "good conscience", would you say?


I think that would be similar to following a map, without knowing where you want to go.

No one is in position to judge every individual's conscience. Clearly some people do.

Without empathy and caring about trustworthiness and deservingness it's impossible to acquire it. Psychopaths have no empathy.

I think many people have good conscience whether they know it or not. I think many people have poor conscience as well. Fewer people have no conscience or worse.

I'm not a moral relativist which I consider to be blind to good and evil. Nor is morality a set of preferences. Murder is murder, abuse is abuse. Virtues are meanings of importance. These things never change. People should know this, and many times they don't.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
What is the best guide?
Some say your heart. Others say your opinions, thoughts...
Some say, definitely not a book.

The latter is shocking to me, because we use books everyday, which are written by people over centuries. Some of these books are science textbooks, cookbooks, health and medical books, self-help book. You name it, books are very much a part of our lives, and they have helped millions.

Yet, some believe that when it comes to life, we don't need a book. We only need our opinions and ideas. Trial and error.

What though if a person dies because he chose to trust in and follow his own ideas and opinions?
That person never gets to see the outcome.
Yikes. :(
That's does not seem very practical to me.

It's more reasonable to have a guide.
I mean, isn't that why we are happy for good parents and teachers for the children.
If I went hiking, in foreign land, I sure would be happy to have a guide. Man... I'm telling you. ;)

When I get a manual with my brand new Dipmonade, Whew. I'm so relieved.
Don't go looking for Dipmonade. I made that up. :D

The point is, humans are happy for a more experienced person - perhaps a scientist, a doctor, mechanic, ... to guide them, or direct them. Or at least some kind of map, instruction manual, ... to show them the way.

Yet, when it comes to our lives... we want to direct our own steps.
714b8-538466.jpg

14096aaa146c5d8d4f856dc09ce2c4e2.jpg

65a0f19112214824a47cafeab7bb2275

Plastic-Bottle-Polution.png

environmental-problems-pollution_500x500.jpg

e4e4a812ac96d0533a1de86e26cab148.jpg

Yeah, I hear you Mister Urkel.
tenor.gif


LOL
I have heard in recent times many people saying, the animals seem more intelligent than humans.
I've come to understand why.

I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Jeremiah 10:23

There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs 14:12

I think the problem most people have though, is with the Bible, being of any practical value, or being useful as a guide.
What's your experience, or thoughts on the above?
Do you find it more practical to follow your own hear, feelings, thoughts, ideas, opinions... rather than a book?
Do you think the Bible can serve as a guide in our life, in any way?
If we used the Golden Rule, we wouldn't have so much crime, poverty, war, pollution, etc.
The Bible has some wonderful things in it. It also has some lousy things in it. It doesn't update with new knowledge, so it's dubious to use overall. Jesus' teachings were mostly positive, IMO, but do we use them much? No, but we should.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Now that you bring up interpretation, I suppose you did a lot of that, in order to arrive at those, in order to condemn the book, because for one thing, the book does not approve of slavery, which many focus on - the kind condemned by most people. For another, nowhere does the book glorify killing your own child. Nor does it center on scape-goating... whatever that means, but even if I don't know what you mean, I know it's your view... based on experience. ...and nowhere does the book condemn billions to an eternity of torture.

So that's some really heavy interpreting going on there, in an effort to condemn the book.

I've made a study of reading scripture from the perspective of cognitive science and neuroscience. To give you one example of what this means, propaganda makes use of these sciences to sway what people think. And propaganda is very, very powerful. Advertising is a form of propaganda, and the world's most successful companies spend TRILLIONS of dollars a year delivering their propaganda BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WORKS !!!

So most scripture also employs propagandistic techniques. And these techniques work no matter how hard your conscious mind tries to interpret or justify what the scripture says.

For the sake of discussion, I'll assume you're being honest when you say that "you think" your book doesn't contain those messages. But your subconscious DOES hear and internalize those messages of horrific morals.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I think it is accepted of science that our earlier attempts to understand whatever is studied might not be the full picture, and hence why we often do revise opinions and beliefs. Perhaps we will never have a full understanding. I think the US constitution seems to be one of the issues in the way of ever having proper gun control, given that some will fight like hell to never alter the bit about having the right to own weapons. Not until a Civil war breaks out perhaps, and is the only way that such change might come about.
As to religions - well not so good if they got it wrong so long ago and we (collectively) are lumbered with it. The females living in Afghanistan might be aware of this. :oops:

Interesting comment 'until a Civil War breaks out' ( or I wonder what Russia has in mind with its balloons _______)
Yes, religions got it wrong so long ago (ancient Babylon for starters) then, once 1st-century Christianity ended due to apostasy got it wrong oh so long ago, 2,000 years ago - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
None of which makes the Bible as wrong, but makes what is written at 1 Timothy 4:1-4 as right :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No one is in position to judge every individual's conscience. Clearly some people do.

Without empathy and caring about trustworthiness and deservingness it's impossible to acquire it. Psychopaths have no empathy.

I think many people have good conscience whether they know it or not. I think many people have poor conscience as well. Fewer people have no conscience or worse.

I'm not a moral relativist which I consider to be blind to good and evil. Nor is morality a set of preferences. Murder is murder, abuse is abuse. Virtues are meanings of importance. These things never change. People should know this, and many times they don't.
That does not answer the question of how persons acquire this "good conscience".
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If we used the Golden Rule, we wouldn't have so much crime, poverty, war, pollution, etc.
True.

The Bible has some wonderful things in it. It also has some lousy things in it. It doesn't update with new knowledge, so it's dubious to use overall. Jesus' teachings were mostly positive, IMO, but do we use them much? No, but we should.
Some people once thought that there were things in the Bible, they could not excuse, until they got all the facts.
They came to realize, humbly, that something can appear "lousy", when you scratch the surface.
That does not change, unless one digs below the surface, and really get all the details.

I understand these persons.
I know some of them personally.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I've made a study of reading scripture from the perspective of cognitive science and neuroscience. To give you one example of what this means, propaganda makes use of these sciences to sway what people think. And propaganda is very, very powerful. Advertising is a form of propaganda, and the world's most successful companies spend TRILLIONS of dollars a year delivering their propaganda BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WORKS !!!

So most scripture also employs propagandistic techniques. And these techniques work no matter how hard your conscious mind tries to interpret or justify what the scripture says.

For the sake of discussion, I'll assume you're being honest when you say that "you think" your book doesn't contain those messages. But your subconscious DOES hear and internalize those messages of horrific morals.
I know a lot of intelligent people... a lot. Scientists physicians. etc.
They are honest people.
They use sciences, reason, education. They are neither gullible, nor obtuse.

...and yes, they do not see the things in the Bible, you have interpreted.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I've made a study of reading scripture from the perspective of cognitive science and neuroscience. To give you one example of what this means, propaganda makes use of these sciences to sway what people think. And propaganda is very, very powerful. Advertising is a form of propaganda, and the world's most successful companies spend TRILLIONS of dollars a year delivering their propaganda BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WORKS !!!
So most scripture also employs propagandistic techniques. And these techniques work no matter how hard your conscious mind tries to interpret or justify what the scripture says...................
I can agree about propaganda because propaganda teaches us 'what' to think.
Academic universities are used to scrub the Bible away, often trying to replace it with the use of technology.
Whereas, education is supposed to teach us 'how' to think.
( Seems as if more and more schools are becoming indoctrination centers )
Science is Not the teacher of morality.
Both bad science and bad religion are both a danger.
Science gives us the world view, whereas the Bible gives us the ethical view.
The Bible teaches us the ' way ' to serve God; morality to be governed by.
Science the ' how' to do it, the Bible is ' should we do it ? '
 
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