The Bible and Homosexuality

[quick]

Allow me to interrupt this discussion with a post that is a bit more on the emotional side, rather than the scientific path this thread has been taking.

While I remember the very place and time when at the age of five I became a Christian, there was never a single moment when I made a conscious choice to be a lesbian and I always take it with a mix of mild amusement and irritation when people will argue that it was a choice. My irritation is that people who don't live inside my own skin would be so arrogant as to presume they know what happened within me better than I do and the amusement is in those moments when I play with the thought of how fun it would be to call them some morning asking "So how am I feeling today?" They should know after all.

You can read the whole article here.

Thank you. :hi:

Articles like this really annoy me. Perhaps I can best explain it with story.

I remember, after being teased one day at school in the second grade, that I desperately wanted to go home, get a big knife, and go kill the guy who was teasing me. Of course, I didn't do it. However, I wanted to. I remember seeing beautiful women and lusting after them, but not acting upon it, because I was married. In short, I remember being tempted often. Of course, our common (until recently) moral code and system of laws, which are based in great part on the Biblical standards, prohibited these actions. They are also deemed immoral by the Bible directly. So, despite these urges, I did not act. That is the very nature of morality--controlling ones urges.

Our lesbian friend obviously thinks differently, and has worked hard to change the morality we have accepted in this nation since it was settled.

We all have choices--do what we "feel", or do what we ought to do.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

We all have choices--do what we "feel", or do what we ought to do.

Many of us also 'feel' that denying someone the happiness of marriage is wrong. Many people 'feel' the urge to do good. 'Feelings' aren't always bad ones love.

 

[quick]

[quote="pah

You have equated homosexuality with criminal offenses - which it is not.

quick:
It isn't criminal today, in some states, but sodomy still is criminal in a many others, and not too long ago, it was criminal in all 50 states. In England only 90 or so years ago, playwright Oscar Wilde was imprisoned for his homosexual behavior.

Since Lawerance v Texas, the Supreme Court has ruled that whatever sodomy laws in existence and sanctioned by Bowers v Hardwick were overruled. It noted in Lawerance that there were only nine states that specifically outlawed homosexual sodomy.

Supreme Court, Lawerance v Texas:
It must be acknowledged, of course, that the Court in Bowers was making the broader point that for centuries there have been powerful voices to condemn homosexual conduct as immoral. The condemnation has been shaped by religious beliefs, conceptions of right and acceptable behavior, and respect for the traditional family. For many persons these are not trivial concerns but profound and deep convictions accepted as ethical and moral principles to which they aspire and which thus determine the course of their lives. These considerations do not answer the question before us, however. The issue is whether the majority may use the power of the State to enforce these views on the whole society through operation of the criminal law. "Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code." Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U. S. 833, 850 (1992).

Actually, Lawrence only applies to concensual sex between adults in a private sitution, like a private residence, if you read it carefully. Sodomy in bathhouses, gay bars, parks, beaches, with minors, etc., clearly may remain illegal, should a state so choose, and despite the Lawrence ruling, most of the states that have more traditional sodomy laws on the books are not removing them. Larwrence was a closely split decision, with both concurring and dissenting opinions, and I am not sure how much weight it really carries. We'll see.

 

[Pah]

Actually, Lawrence only applies to concensual sex between adults in a private sitution, like a private residence, if you read it carefully. Sodomy in bathhouses, gay bars, parks, beaches, with minors, etc., clearly may remain illegal, should a state so choose, and despite the Lawrence ruling, most of the states that have more traditional sodomy laws on the books are not removing them. Larwrence was a closely split decision, with both concurring and dissenting opinions, and I am not sure how much weight it really carries. We'll see.

Sir, Sodomy is removed as a category of criminal behavior. What you are talking about is "public sex". If it is enforced by homophobic police only against homosexuals it will go the way of the do-do bird. and all cases brought under such a concept will be overturned.

Any place with an expectation of privacy is fair game for whatever sex is desired between consenting adults.

Those who would only focus on the homosexual act are as prejudiced and immoral as any racist.

Sex with minors falls under the laws of statutary rape or peadoephilia. It is disengenious to include it with mention of a "sodomistic" act. Some would see this as an appeal to emotion.

I am quite sure that the full weight of constitutional law attends Lawerance v Texas. Why would you think differently? You are familiar with Roe v Wade, I'm sure, and the re-affirmations of a conservative court? Each decision is very difficult to overturn there being a natural reluctance on the part of the court to do so.

That is the very nature of morality--controlling ones urges.

You have not yet authenticated your morality and why it must be applied to others.

 

[quick]

We all have choices--do what we "feel", or do what we ought to do.

Many of us also 'feel' that denying someone the happiness of marriage is wrong. Many people 'feel' the urge to do good. 'Feelings' aren't always bad ones love.

Christians are always portrayed by non-believers as raining on everyone's parade. It is fair to ask why we even care about the behavior of others. I have two responses.

First, there is greater joy from a relationship with Christ and living through grace in accordance with the laws received from our Creator than there is in any other lifestyle--Christianity frees us to live in accordance with our better angels, and we want everyone to know that; and Second, there is a severe cost--to everyone--for violating God's law. This nation will pay a price--and we as Christians will suffer right along with the pagans, although we are assured of eternal life once this life is over--for ignoring God and thumbing our nose at him. God is patient, but not indefinitely.

See these verses from Jeremiah 25, discussing punishment of Judah for disobedience, and judgment of Babylon, his instrument of judgment on Judah:

1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah, in the (1) fourth year of (2) Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah (that was the (3) first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon),
2 which Jeremiah the prophet spoke to all the (4) people of Judah and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying,
3 "From the (5) thirteenth year of (6) Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, even to this day, these (7) twenty-three years the word of the LORD has come to me, and I have spoken to you (8) again and again, but you have not listened.
4 "And the LORD has sent to you all His (9) servants the prophets again and again, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear,
5 saying, '(10) Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds, and dwell on the land which the LORD has given to you and your forefathers (11) forever and ever;
6 and (12) do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.'
7 "Yet you have not listened to Me," declares the LORD, "in order that you might (13) provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands to your own harm.
8 "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Because you have not obeyed My words,
9 behold, I will (14) send and take all the families of the north,' declares the LORD, 'and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, (15) My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and (16) make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.
10 'Moreover, I will (17) take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the (18) sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
11 '(19) This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon (20) seventy years.
12 'Then it will be (21) when seventy years are completed I will (22) punish the king of Babylon and that nation,' declares the LORD, 'for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and (23) I will make it an everlasting desolation.
13 'I will bring upon that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in (24) this book which Jeremiah has prophesied against (25) all the nations.
14 '(For (26) many nations and great kings will make slaves of them, even them; and I will (27) recompense them according to their deeds and according to the work of their hands.)'"
15 For thus the LORD, the God of Israel, says to me, "Take this (28) cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it.
16 "They will (29) drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them."


Judah ignored God and his messengers, thinking nothing would happen. The sack of Judah by Babylon can be researched in secular histories. You may, like Judah, find God's admonitions to be foolishness, and that is, of course, your priviledge.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

We all have choices--do what we "feel", or do what we ought to do.

Many of us also 'feel' that denying someone the happiness of marriage is wrong. Many people 'feel' the urge to do good. 'Feelings' aren't always bad ones love.

Christians are always portrayed by non-believers as raining on everyone's parade. It is fair to ask why we even care about the behavior of others. I have two responses.

First, there is greater joy from a relationship with Christ and living through grace in accordance with the laws received from our Creator than there is in any other lifestyle--Christianity frees us to live in accordance with our better angels, and we want everyone to know that; and Second, there is a severe cost--to everyone--for violating God's law. This nation will pay a price--and we as Christians will suffer right along with the pagans, although we are assured of eternal life once this life is over--for ignoring God and thumbing our nose at him. God is patient, but not indefinitely.

Do not preach to me about the joy of a relationship with Christ - He and I are tight. So don't assume that I don't have one cause I think Jesus would support homosexuals.

And let me get this straight.. you think God is going to smite everyone because people support homosexuality?

 

[amanda]

Thankyou quick, I couldn't have said it better myself. Its amazing how people twist Gods law to make something okay when its not, just to make them feel better about themselves.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Thankyou quick, I couldn't have said it better myself. Its amazing how people twist Gods law to make something okay when its not, just to make them feel better about themselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble... Gods law was written by man, and influenced by the customs of the time. Just like how until not too long ago, it was part of the culture that women were not allowed to be citizens and vote and basically looked on as property. Believe it or not, we may be a little bit smarter now than they were years and years andyears ago. thats a long time to play the trial and error game. We may have actually learned about somethings that the bible writers didn't know about mg: shocking, i know. sorry but i dont twist gods law to fit me. though you seem to like twisting it to alienate people. go with the old wwjd thing. its considerably more reliable.

 

[amanda]

Those people were inspired by God. Say all you want the fact is people do twist
the law to make homosexuality exceptable when its not. The wwjd, What I do know is that the lord would never condone such behavior.

 

[Green Gaia]

Those people were inspired by God.

Says who? The Bible? OK, so the Bible says it's the inspired word of God, so we're just supposed to believe that?

Say all you want the fact is people do twist
the law to make homosexuality exceptable when its not. The wwjd, What I do know is that the lord would never condone such behavior.

Oh yes, loving and caring for another human being is such EVIL and SHOCKING behavior. :roll: :lol:

 

[quick]

QUOTE Do not preach to me about the joy of a relationship with Christ - He and I are tight. So don't assume that I don't have one cause I think Jesus would support homosexuals.


RESPONSE "Christ would support homosexuals who repent and ask for forgiveness, just like he would any other sinner."

QUOTE And let me get this straight.. you think God is going to smite everyone because people support homosexuality?

RESPONSE "The Bible over and over again reveals God to raise and lower nations in accordance with his perfect justice. This nation is no different. Perhaps you should re-read Abraham's debate with God before God vaporized Sodom and Gomorrah. It is illustrative. As far as individual believers are concerned, we know we are saved, and no matter what we must endure in this life, we know God will not forsake us; God makes no such promise to sinful nations as nations. I love my country and wish it to follow a correct path.

You seem to discount the veracity of the Bible as to God's wrath against nations. I wonder why you believe in Jesus, then, as you say that you do. How do you know which parts of the Bible to ignore and which parts to believe? Why are any of the parts about Christ true, or do you have some special insight? Do you just believe in Jesus as a concept, but not as God incarnate who has lived a perfect life, died, been raised, and has therefore paid the debt as the guarantor for all sinners who have faith in him? Just curious."

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

QUOTE Do not preach to me about the joy of a relationship with Christ - He and I are tight. So don't assume that I don't have one cause I think Jesus would support homosexuals.


RESPONSE "Christ would support homosexuals who repent and ask for forgiveness, just like he would any other sinner."

QUOTE And let me get this straight.. you think God is going to smite everyone because people support homosexuality?

RESPONSE "The Bible over and over again reveals God to raise and lower nations in accordance with his perfect justice. This nation is no different. Perhaps you should re-read Abraham's debate with God before God vaporized Sodom and Gomorrah. It is illustrative. As far as individual believers are concerned, we know we are saved, and no matter what we must endure in this life, we know God will not forsake us; God makes no such promise to sinful nations as nations. I love my country and wish it to follow a correct path.

You seem to discount the veracity of the Bible as to God's wrath against nations. I wonder why you believe in Jesus, then, as you say that you do. How do you know which parts of the Bible to ignore and which parts to believe? Why are any of the parts about Christ true, or do you have some special insight? Do you just believe in Jesus as a concept, but not as God incarnate who has lived a perfect life, died, been raised, and has therefore paid the debt as the guarantor for all sinners who have faith in him? Just curious."

Now what exactly are these homosexuals repenting for... being homosexual? Cause if that's what your saying, you are even more ignorant than i originally thought. Now if we're talking about leading a promiscuous life style, I agree with you. Cause I don't think it's right for ANY two people to have sex outside of marriage, thus why I am ever so very much for gay marriage.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Died, raised, the whole damn thing. I also believe Jesus is all about love. Jesus IS LOVE. and I just find it interesting that you seem to be much more about specifying who can love who than in love itself.

As for this country following the right path, homosexuality is not out biggest concern.

 

[quick]

Now what exactly are these homosexuals repenting for... being homosexual? Cause if that's what your saying, you are even more ignorant than i originally thought. Now if we're talking about leading a promiscuous life style, I agree with you. Cause I don't think it's right for ANY two people to have sex outside of marriage, thus why I am ever so very much for gay marriage.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Died, raised, the whole damn thing. I also believe Jesus is all about love. Jesus IS LOVE. and I just find it interesting that you seem to be much more about specifying who can love who than in love itself.

As for this country following the right path, homosexuality is not out biggest concern.[/quote]

The Bible is quite clear about homosexuality being a sin unless you engage in some sophistry to twist the many verses dealing with the matter, as many posters have done in this thread.

I am not sure you have a clear understanding of sin. As Christ says, if you merely hate someone, you are a murderer; if you merely look upon a woman in lust, you've already commited adultery with her in your heart. In short, we all are sinners. We cannot live the perfect life required of salvation apart from Christ, i.e. salvation of works. We must be saved through grace and repentence, through faith in Christ.

For a homosexual who accepts Christ, he would need to repent of his sin--committing homosexual acts. He'd also need to repent of his lust, which would remain even after he accepts Christ. The Holy Spirit would begin the process of sancitification and hopefully his urges would begin, slowly, to subside. This is no different than an adulter, or someone who steals, etc. We all sin, every day--we steal when we overcharge people at work, or even think of doing so. But, once you've accepted Christ, the Spirit will help the sincere believer in his walk, and as he surrounds himself with other believers and sincerely pursues his walk.

Finally, I can tell you are one of those who think homosexuals are born, not made, and cannot help themselves. If you want to continue believing that myth that homosexual activists want you to believe so they can achieve discrete and insular minority status before the law, fine; if you want you eyes opened, click here:

http://www.narth.com/

 

[anders]

What is extremely clear is that the Bible can't and doesn't mention homosexuality, because that label didn't exist in those days. Besides, many if not most posts banning homosexuality seem to concentrate on sex practices. I find that ridiculous; by definition, homo- versus heterosexuality is more of a question of which gender a person is more attracted by. There can be nothing wrong in attraction. What this world needs is love, in any combinations.

 

[Green Gaia]

Quick, how do you know that homosexuality is not inborn? How can you be so sure that you know what made me a lesbian better than I do myself? Not that you will believe me, but I made no choice to be a lesbian, it's just who I am. And I can accept that and live my life happily or I can deny it and pretend to be something I'm not.

And I want to be happy.

 

[Pah]

The Bible is quite clear about homosexuality being a sin unless you engage in some sophistry to twist the many verses dealing with the matter, as many posters have done in this thread.

You keep making that charge and making it without any justification for the "rightness" of your arguement. As adamant as you are about others being wrong, I would think it easy for you to defend the "truth" of the meaning you find in the Bible.

Mere assertion and repetitive assertion carries no evidence with it. Consider the visitor to your faith and having to listen to one say "I'm right" and another say "NO! I'm right". This is the place were such disagreement makes it impossible to justify overriding secular rights in favor of one side or the other. Suppose each side of Christian moralirty were to file "friend of the court" briefs - the Justices would have no trouble dismissing both without some justification for which is to be considered correct. I am giving you this chance to make a statement as to why your "brief" should carry more weight. Assertion is an empty arguement and can not be used as as a supressor of the natural rights of a sexual minority.

Tell us, please, why only your interpretation of God's Word is to be considered over the reality of God's creation.

 

[Lightkeeper]

Now what exactly are these homosexuals repenting for... being homosexual? Cause if that's what your saying, you are even more ignorant than i originally thought. Now if we're talking about leading a promiscuous life style, I agree with you. Cause I don't think it's right for ANY two people to have sex outside of marriage, thus why I am ever so very much for gay marriage.

***Mod Post***

Please no personal attacks. We appreciate your opinions and ideas.

 

[Pah]

What is extremely clear is that the Bible can't and doesn't mention homosexuality, because that label didn't exist in those days. Besides, many if not most posts banning homosexuality seem to concentrate on sex practices. I find that ridiculous; by definition, homo- versus heterosexuality is more of a question of which gender a person is more attracted by. There can be nothing wrong in attraction. What this world needs is love, in any combinations.

Actually there was a Greek word for male homosexuality that was avalable to the writers of the NT. It is more telling that they did not use that word considering that the practice of homosexuality was part of cultural norms in Rome and in Athens.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

The Bible is quite clear about homosexuality being a sin unless you engage in some sophistry to twist the many verses dealing with the matter, as many posters have done in this thread.

The Bible also condones slavery... you up for that? Some good old slavery? The Bible is REALLY old. Things change over time. People have revelationg about homosexuality existing, people having equal rights, etc.

I am not sure you have a clear understanding of sin.

Wrong thing to say. Im not stupid. I know what sin is. 12 years of Catholic schooling here. I am WELL aware of what sin is. Every possible definition. So don't underestimate my intelligence here.

For a homosexual who accepts Christ, he would need to repent of his sin--committing homosexual acts.

whoever said he commited them? why does it have to be a he? all homosexuals commit 'homosexual acts'? what EXACTLY do you define those as?

He'd also need to repent of his lust, which would remain even after he accepts Christ. The Holy Spirit would begin the process of sancitification and hopefully his urges would begin, slowly, to subside. This is no different than an adulter, or someone who steals, etc. .

whats the deal here? so you have some 'curing' regimen? leave the forgiving or what ever youre trying to do here up to the big guy. and believe it or not -- HETEROS LUST TOO! mg: surprising i know. so do heteros who lust have to go through all that too?

We all sin, every day

Ummm....yeah....gee thanks for informing me of something I did not know. Glad I have you here to enlighten me! :roll:

Finally, I can tell you are one of those who think homosexuals are born, not made, and cannot help themselves.

You're really very intuitive - glad you figured that one out, mainly cause, oh i dont know, its true. and who needs helped here? We need to help them cause they can't help theirselves? seemed like they wre doing just ducky. :killme:

If you want to continue believing that myth that homosexual activists want you to believe so they can achieve discrete and insular minority status before the law, fine;

its not a myth. have you ever talked to a person who is a homosexual? I mean really talked to them. any single one of them would tell you IT AINT A CHOICE

if you want you eyes opened, click here:

http://www.narth.com/

let's try not to insult me. I don't need statistics, i draw conclusions based on real experiences. I feel the way I do about homosexuals cause they are a part of my life and some of the people i care most about.


Dictating your life and the lives of others by the Bible is not a good way to go... taking the Bible literally NEVER helped anyone succeed. Instead of burying your head in the Bible try learning things for yourself.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

I can't delete it, but I'll edit it so it's not so big. :goodjob: