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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I have noticed that some Christians will often quote a sentence, verse or paragraph from the bible to justify many different self-righteous judgeents, and so it seems pertinent to use the single verse formula in return.
But clearly you would not do that.

Let's say I wouldn't rely on it as my sole support for a particular doctrine. :)

Unfortunately “proof texts” are continuously laid as foundations for non-Trinitarian dogma. I have yet to see a textual critic arise from their ranks and if one did, I seriously doubt he/she would survive peer review, a necessary (and sometimes lethal) component of any credible textual work.

We cannot do much more.
Where a person declares:- 'This is my truth'... or.... 'This is my Faith' then almost all members here would acknowledge that and respect it.

Indeed we should, but as this is a debate forum they may be asked not only what they believe but why they believe it. It is here that beliefs can be upheld, refined, or challenged.

Where a person declares 'This is the only truth' ....or.... 'this is the only faith' then they're likely to get challenged. :)

Totally agree, but then they can also be the most fun. :)

_________________________________________________

There is a problem with resolution via textual criticism or analysis.
The first problem is that there is no record about what Jesus, his followers or others actually said, in their own language.

We need a record of what was said, but I’m not sure why an original language is required. We can certainly understand Vladimir Putin’s speech without first printing, reading or hearing it in Russian. Besides, Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, and Mark 16:17 clearly show a church filled with Holy Spirit and able to speak in tongues.

Apart from a very few and vague references to single words and their translations, via Hebrew, Greek or Latin we have little to work with that is original.

You can’t be serious Oldbadger…we have over 5800 extant manuscripts, much more than those found for the Tanakh, and much more than any other ancient manuscript. Most are partials, true, but we have more extant manuscripts that preserve the New Testament than we do any other ancient writing.

We don’t have photos of the original stone tablets but there is little theological question there were ten not three, four or twelve commandments, and that we should not commit, rather than commit adultery despite a 1631 misprint to the contrary.

Yet when it comes to the NT, somehow it becomes fashionable to raise any standard of evidence to unprecedented levels.

Why?

The bible does not even refer to the real names of most of the disciples, or even 'Jesus'.

I don't think "Old Badger" is your real name either, but I don't think it affects what you believe or write here. Likewise my avatar doesn't affect what I believe or write either. You will still be who you are just as surely as I will be.

And so for that reason we can only work on the balances of probability and possibility.
Bearing all this in mind it is definitely a tempting challenge to reply to a thread that claims 'The Bible declares that Jesus is God'.

Yes, very tempting challenge. I see neither of us could resist. :)

We know that ernest Christians edited, added to, manipulated and even invented insertions into the Gospels, whole letters and even historical works outside of the bible. That just does not help the thread's claim.

I have no doubt men earnestly tried and are trying to edit, add, manipulate and even invent insertions into the Gospels. On this particular point we agree. Last week we had neo-Nazis marching around trying to do the same with recent history, yet we can all be confident the holocaust happened and the historical record correct.

In other words, simply because there are forces working to change scripture does not mean we cannot announce scripture confidently, and simply because there are forces working to change history does not mean we can't write history objectively, so I don't see either as helping or hindering any of the thread's claim.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
We know that ernest Christians edited, added to, manipulated and even invented insertions into the Gospels, whole letters and even historical works outside of the bible. That just does not help the thread's claim.

Isn't it ironic that you confidently use Scripture to try to prove your point when you have absolutely no confidence in its reliability.

In your posts to me it looked (at first) as if you accept every word of 'scripture' as you describe it. You complained that I did not quote 'scripture'...... so I quoted scripture, and you showed little confidence in my chosen verses, preferring to focus upon your own.

I think you missed Rick B.’s point. The point is not that you quoted scripture or which scripture we should focus on. The point is why there was a bother to quote it in the first place.

Earlier you quoted scripture claiming it argued against Jesus’ deity. Except now it appears you once again pull the rug from under yourself by subsequently arguing to me that the scripture we rely on is most likely edited, invented, missing, manipulated or somehow unreliable.

Virtually every non-Trinitarian on this forum has attacked scripture in the same way and after doing so, many turn around and say Trinitarians have gone apostate!

It’s like presenting a new drug for approval before the FDA. You present it as safe for public consumption, highlighting several studies touting its safety and efficacy, but then state you have no idea if the studies are real, invented, manipulated, conducted by appropriately credentialed medical personnel, lunatics or quacks.

So let me make the point again:

Who on earth actually does this???

Would you present your company’s drug and argue it's veracity with this kind of caveat? So why present scripture and argue it's veracity in like manner here?

Telling the FDA “You complained I didn’t quote studies so I quoted you studies” would be no more ingenuous then your statement “You complained I didn’t quote scripture so I quoted you scripture” is here. Why do you expect a listener to express confidence in a verse you express no confidence in yourself?

I simply do not understand why the non-Trinitarians on the forum quote scripture they believe dubious or bogus. My understanding is that you quote bogus sources when you are arguing against, but not for that source’s veracity.

I see any affirmative argument based on deceptive, dubious, or bogus sources as self-defeating. Yet that is exactly what our non/anti-Trinitarian friends have done on this thread with the hope we or others would consider their methodology more persuasive than sound exegesis.

Perhaps if we could get a non-Trinitarian to explain the logic behind this novel methodology we, as Trinitarians, could have a better understanding of their rationale. As it is, it all seems highly counter-intuitive to me.

Look at it this way my non/anti Trinitarian friends. If you wanted to introduce new heresies, which biblical hermeneutic would you likely employ? A method that claims our canon untrustworthy, unreliable, or compromised (that we may or may never straighten out) or one that invokes an exegetical method?

I'll await any reasoned reply.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why the Trinity word isn't in the new testamenet.

I heard of a woman who went to a Methodist church, but couldn't find "Methodist" in the bible so she stopped going.

She then tried a Catholic church, but couldn't find "Catholic" either, so she stopped going to the Catholic church as well.

Lastly she couldn't find the word "bible" in the bible, so she stopped believing or reading her bible as well. :(


If it were true it would be there. God in 3 persons with one head, is a 3 headed monster.

I don't know any Trinitarian that believes in "God in 3 persons with one head" nor am I aware of any Trinitarian that believes in "a 3 headed monster". There may be a few pagans who do though. You'll have to ask around.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
My understanding of the Trinity is God is in 3 persons and God is the head. You don't think Trinity is God is in 3 persons? Even ld hymns sing it " God in 3 persons Blessed Trinity" . Its God in 3 persons, if theres not one head then how do the 3 connect?
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Heres the definition of the Trinity the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. SO ghow does the one God connect it if not by the head?

The Methodist word is not he same as the Trinity. Its not required to be Methodist to be a Christian. Trinitarians claim it is required to believe in the Trinity to be saed. That's pretty dam important, it does matter that its not in the bible, if not then its not required to believe in.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I

I'll await any reasoned reply.

Hello again...... I read all, ok?
I am very sure that Yeshua barYosef the handworker did exist, that he did meet with John the Baptist, was baptised, did start his own mission which lasted about 11-12 months and did end in Jerusalem during passover week.

But I believe that Yeshua's mission was for the return and re-establishment of the laws of Moses especially the poor laws, all put to one side by hellenised, quisling, corrupt priesthood.

Certainly he wanted to short-cut the Temple money-go-round by offering remission of sins through confession and immersion.

You see, my reading of the gospels after cutting out the exagerrations, additions and outright fibs is the above outline. Yeshua was no God, but a rebel insurrectionist raising a following against Priesthood and Temple corruption. I think I can show that.

G-Mark less the last verses and evangelical tinkereings is a good report about it all. Mark was probably a witness. But Matthew and Luke both needed to copy Mark's story and I doubt that they were witnesses at all.

John the author of G-John probably never saw Galilee in his entire lifetime. He doesn't even know how to patch the anecdotes together into an accurate timeline.

So that's my 'take' on Yeshua and his mission. Since two Yeshuas were arrested and convicted in Jerusalem that week, as reported in the gospels, I'm not even sure which one was executed. It's all there in the gospels.

:)
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I think you missed Rick B.’s point. The point is not that you quoted scripture or which scripture we should focus on. The point is why there was a bother to quote it in the first place.

Earlier you quoted scripture claiming it argued against Jesus’ deity. Except now it appears you once again pull the rug from under yourself by subsequently arguing to me that the scripture we rely on is most likely edited, invented, missing, manipulated or somehow unreliable.

Virtually every non-Trinitarian on this forum has attacked scripture in the same way and after doing so, many turn around and say Trinitarians have gone apostate!

It’s like presenting a new drug for approval before the FDA. You present it as safe for public consumption, highlighting several studies touting its safety and efficacy, but then state you have no idea if the studies are real, invented, manipulated, conducted by appropriately credentialed medical personnel, lunatics or quacks.

So let me make the point again:

Who on earth actually does this???

Would you present your company’s drug and argue it's veracity with this kind of caveat? So why present scripture and argue it's veracity in like manner here?

Telling the FDA “You complained I didn’t quote studies so I quoted you studies” would be no more ingenuous then your statement “You complained I didn’t quote scripture so I quoted you scripture” is here. Why do you expect a listener to express confidence in a verse you express no confidence in yourself?

I simply do not understand why the non-Trinitarians on the forum quote scripture they believe dubious or bogus. My understanding is that you quote bogus sources when you are arguing against, but not for that source’s veracity.

I see any affirmative argument based on deceptive, dubious, or bogus sources as self-defeating. Yet that is exactly what our non/anti-Trinitarian friends have done on this thread with the hope we or others would consider their methodology more persuasive than sound exegesis.

Perhaps if we could get a non-Trinitarian to explain the logic behind this novel methodology we, as Trinitarians, could have a better understanding of their rationale. As it is, it all seems highly counter-intuitive to me.

Look at it this way my non/anti Trinitarian friends. If you wanted to introduce new heresies, which biblical hermeneutic would you likely employ? A method that claims our canon untrustworthy, unreliable, or compromised (that we may or may never straighten out) or one that invokes an exegetical method?

I'll await any reasoned reply.
There is a difference in believers of the Bible, some think it's word for word but everyone who at least follows the Bible will see it as a means to salvation even if not word for word. What people tend to stick to is what's called the red letters, words of Christ. Most Christian have no issues with christs words, maybe problems with Paul but not Jesus, so if Jesus says God the father is above them then Christian's tend to believe it above any religious dogma. So with my belief, the Bible is fallible but not ge words of Jesus, he is the one that has to say he is god the father. Pharisees even accused him of claiming to be God and he simply referenced Old Testament claiming that everyone are sons of god.

Psalm 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
This is a continuation of post 995 on page 50 regarding Romans 9:5

whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen

More examples in support of Romans 9:5 claim.


Jesus is the preexistent Divine Son of God

There are several passages where Paul refers to Christ’s prehuman existence, such as the following example from Philippians:

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God (hos en morphe theou hyperchon), did not consider the being equal with God (to einai isa theo) something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant (morphen doulou), being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is aboveevery name (kai echarisato auto to onoma to hyper pan onoma), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:5-11

In this particular text Paul not only believed that Christ has been exalted to the highest position of authority imaginable he further applies the following OT passage to the Lord Jesus:

“For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): ‘I am the LORD, and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, “Seek me in vain.” I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.”’” Isaiah 45:18-23

Moreover, this next citation is clearly a Granville Sharp construction that points to the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus:

“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon 'Iesou Christou), who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed(hina lytrosetai hemas apo pases anomias), and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (laon periousion), zealous for good deeds.” Titus 2:13-14

We again have language which the OT applies to Yahweh being used in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ! According to the prophetic writings it is Yahweh who is the great God and Savior that redeems a people from their lawless deeds to be his own possession:
“And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people (laos periousios) above all nations; for the whole earth is mine.” Exodus 19:5 LXX

“For you are great (hoti megas ei su), and do wonders: you are the only [and] the great God (su ei ho theos monos ho megas).” Psalm 85[86]:10 LXX

"Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities/lawlessness (kai autos lytrosetai ton Israel ek pason ton anomion autou).” Psalm 129 [130]:7-8 LXX

“For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure (periousiasmon autou).” Psalm 134[135]:4 LXX – cf. Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2

In his comments on both Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, another text that is a Granville Sharp construction which describes Christ as both God and Savior,

“To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (tou theou hemon kai soteros ‘Iesou Christou) have received a faith as precious as ours.”
Murray J. Harris explains that,

“Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 may be considered together, since both use a stereotyped formula, ‘God and Savior,’ in reference to Jesus. This was a common formula in first-century religious terminology, used by both Palestinian and Diaspora Jews in reference to Yahweh, the one true God, and by Gentiles when they spoke of an individual god or a deified ruler. In all of these uses the expression God and Savior invariably denotes one deity, not two, so that when Paul and Peter employ this formula and follow it with the name Jesus Christ, their readers would always understand it as referring to a single person, Jesus Christ. It would simply not occur to them that ‘God’ might mean the Father, with Jesus Christ as the ‘Savior.’” (Harris, 3 Crucial Questions, 3. Is Jesus God?, III. The Divine Title “God” Used of Jesus, pp. 96-97)

Finally, in Colossians Jesus is depicted as the Creator and Sustainer of the entire created realm, He who is before all creation both in terms of status and time:

"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created (ektisthe), in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created (ektistai) through him and for him. And he IS before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.” Colossians 1:13-20

Harris clarifies the implications of the two tenses that are used for Jesus creating all things:

“In the prologue to the Fourth Gospel, however, John states that ‘through him [the eternal Word] all things were made; without him nothing has been made that has been made’ (John 1:3). Here the Greek word for ‘all things’ (panta) draws attention to the multiplicity and diversity of creation. In Colossians 1:16, on the other hand, the Greek for ‘all things’ (ta panta) means ‘all things collectively,’ with the emphasis being on the sum total of reality: ‘For in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers–all things have been created through him and for him’ (my translation). Two other points in this remarkable verse are worthy of note. The prepositional phrase in him indicates that in the very person of Christ resides the creative energy that produced the universe. John simply says that ‘in him was life’ (John 1:4), while Peter refers to him as ‘the author of life’ (Acts 3:15). The other notable feature is the subtle distinction, lost in many English translations, that Paul makes between the two tenses of creation (ektisthe… ektistai). A paraphrase of the verse will highlight the distinction:

It was in his person that all things in heaven and on earth were once created, things that can be seen by the human eye, and those things that cannot be seen, whether they be angelic occupants of heavenly thrones or supernatural beings who exercise dominion or rule or authority–all these things were created, and now exist, through him and for him

“The universe has an ongoing relationship to Christ…” (Ibid., II. Divine Functions Exercised by Jesus, A. In relation to the Universe, 1. Jesus Is The Creator, pp. 80-81)
Christ is further said to embody the entire Divine essence, having the whole fulness of Deity residing in him bodily:

“For in him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily,” Colossians 2:9
Harris explains,

“One verse beyond all others in the New Testament affirms that every divine attribute is found in Christ: ‘In Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form’ (Col. 2:9). Paul does not say simply, ‘the plenitude of Deity,’ but ‘the entire fullness of Deity.’ He emphasizes that no element of that fullness is excepted. Whatever is characteristic of God as God, resides in Christ. This includes both God’s nature and his attributes. In the Greek text the verb lives (present tense) and the adverb translated ‘in bodily form’ are not found side by side, but separated, which suggests that two distinct affirmations are being made: that the entire fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ eternally and that this fullness now permanently resides in Christ in bodily form. Thus, Paul implies both the eternal deity of Christ and the permanent humanity of Christ.” (Ibid., I. Divine Status Claimed by or Accorded to Jesus , A. In Relation to God the Father, 1. Jesus Is The Possessor Of Divine Attributes, pp. 66-67) Sam Shamoun

More to come.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
I still don't understand why the Trinity word isn't in the new testamenet. If it were true it would be there. God in 3 persons with one head, is a 3 headed monster.

I believe that is called the null hypothesis. You would need to show why it would be necessary for the word to be used.

I believe that is false reasoning. I am a true person but I am not in the Bible.

I believe that would be true if it were three physical persons but it is not.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
We all pray to the Father--through Jesus' name.

When I pray I don't use any name. God knows who He is and He knows when I am praying to Him. However when I pray in public I do use a name so that people will know to whom I am praying.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There were no original writings left when the protestants translated--Catholicism works remained. So you must have Catholicism translating or a liar did it.
Catholicism is far removed from God and Jesus--they are not the rock. Neither is there translating any good. Every trinity translation on earth contradicts the teachings of Jesus with the errors contained.
The only ones on earth who correct their errors--these will prove correct in the end--the rest will fall.

I believe the evidence is to the contrary. Where did you get your information: from some stupid watchtower pub.?

I believe that is bias based upon JW ignorance.

I have read the New American Bible (A modern Catholic translation) and it appeared fine to me.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I believe the evidence is to the contrary. Where did you get your information: from some stupid watchtower pub.?

I believe that is bias based upon JW ignorance.

I have read the New American Bible (A modern Catholic translation) and it appeared fine to me.


Every trinity translation on earth teaches 2 different gods--they are error filled.
Catholicism brought in--statues, icons, graven images--they allowed their young men to blow each others heads off on the orders of men standing on both sides of the wars of hatred and greed-The rev war--the civil war, ww1,ww2--they even killed for Adolf Hitler--- Everyone listening to their translating put their eternal lives in their hands that they can accomplish this- John 4:22-24. Yet any who knows what the bible teaches can see clear--they are far removed from God and his son. None of her branches fixed the translating errors. The New world translation fixed the errors.
In the ot--I am that I am = translating error--in the Hebrew language--I will be what I will be is correct--So when Jesus said I am it had 0 to do with that Hebrew statement like trinities teach.
In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural when used for the true living God as GOD--only for false gods-- the trinity scholars know this fact, yet every Trinitarian believes it is plural for God--they as well believe it is a name--it is not, it is a Hebrew word that carries various meanings.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
This is a continuation of post 995 on page 50 and 1051 on page 53 regarding Romans 9:5

whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen

Grammar:

1) Kata sarka (“according to the flesh”). Throughout Paul’s writings, he routinely emphasizes the two natures of Jesus Christ—divine and human. In Paul’s theology, Jesus’ perpetual incarnation (as a literal blood descendant of David) is part of his gospel: “Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant [spermatos] of David, according to my gospel (2 Tim. 2:8). We also find Paul placing the phrase kata sarka in apposition (side-by-side) to something else and/or set in contrast to Jesus’ deity. In Romans 1:3-4, for example, we find kata sarka in contrast to the phrase kata pneuma (“according to the Spirit”). If this doxology in Romans 9:5b refers to Christ, then, as NT scholar Murray Harris rightly points out,

there is a natural climax that elevates the person of the Messiah as well as an antithesis that complements the limitation signified by to kata sarka. . . . Not only did the Messiah come from Jewish stock, he is a universal monarch who will be eternally worshiped as God. To refer theos to Christ accords perfectly with the immediate context.

2) Ho ōn. The phrase ho ōn (“who is”) adds significant weight to the affirmation that “who is over all God” refers to Christ. The participle ōn can denote a continuing state of being or timeless existence. The participle phrase is used in John 1:18: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God [or “the one and only God”] who is [ho ōn—i.e., continually] in the bosom of the Father. . .” Since Paul’s doxologies are always connected with the preceding context, obviously the participle phrase in Romans 9:5 would modify the preceding context and thus point to the previous subject (namely, the Christ, whom the Jews rejected), not a different subject. In the NT, we find many examples where the articular participle ōn further describes an existing subject as with John 1:18.

Consider also that the participle phrase ho ōn agrees grammatically with ho Christos (“the Christ”), which makes “the Christ” even more likely to be the referent to the phrase “who is over all God.” The “who is,” then, describes Christ as both “over all” and “God blessed, forever.”

3) “Over all.” First, the phrase epi pantōn (“over all”) is connected to the participle phrase ho ōn: “Who is over all.” “Over all” denotes ultimate supremacy. Jesus the Messiah is supreme ruler over all Jews, Gentiles, believing, and unbelieving. It is true that Scripture calls God the Father “over all” (cf. Eph. 4:6). However, Jesus is called “over all” in Acts 10:36: “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all).” Note the parallel to the phrase in Romans 9:5: ho ōn epi pantōn theos (lit., “who is over all God”) with the end of Acts 10:36: houtos estin pantōn kurios (lit., “He is of all Lord”). Further, in Romans 10:12, Paul states that Jesus is kurios pantōn—“Lord of all.”

The supremacy over all things is constantly expressed in Paul’s theology (esp. in Col. 1:16-17 where Jesus is Creator of all things, thus having the supremacy over all creation). As “God blessed forever,” we would except to read passages where Christ is supreme over all things; the “Lord of all”; “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8); and the Creator of all things.

4) Jesus as theos (“God”). Objection may be raised at Paul identifying Jesus as “God” being that he normally identifies the Father as “God” and Jesus as “Lord” (e.g., Gal. 1:1, 3; 1 Cor. 8:6). It is true that in the NT Paul normally refers to the Father as theos (“God”) and the Son as kurios (“Lord”) particularly when the Father and Jesus appear in the same verse or context. However, in religious contexts both titles theos and kurios were two equal descriptions of deity. This is especially seen when one considers that the very term used to translate the Tetragrammaton (i.e., YHWH, “LORD”) in the LXX was kurios.

Frequency does not mean exclusivity. The fact is, even though Paul regularly refers to the Father as “God,” he has specifically referred to Jesus as ho theos (“the God”) in Titus 2:13; existing in the nature of God in Philippians 2:6; and dwelling in “all the fullness of Deity” in Colossians 2:9; and, as mentioned, the Creator of all things in Colossians 1:16-17. To Paul, Jesus Christ is the YHWH of Isaiah 45:23 as presented in Philippians 2:10-11. So referring to Christ as “over all God blessed forever” is quite consistent in Paul’s theology.

One more point, in Romans 9:5, theos (“God”) does not have the article: ho ōn epi pantōn theos (lit., “who is over all God”). As with John 1:1c (lit., “and God was the Word”) where the anarthrous theos refers to the Word’s nature, not identity. Hence, in Romans 9:5, Christ is “over all God” as to His nature.

5) “Blessed forever.” When we examine the biblical record, whenever eulogētos (“blessed”) appears as an independent or asyndetic doxology to God the Father, it always comes before the name of God. But here in Romans 9:5, it comes after “God”: “who is over all God blessed forever.” Paul uses the expression “blessed forever” twice in his letters and each time, undeniably, it is an assertion regarding the subject (see Rom 1:25 and 2 Cor 11:31). In 2 Corinthians 11:31, a similar construction as Romans 9:5 is found where ho ōn refers to the subject of the sentence: “The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is [ho ōn] to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.”

Therefore, it is with the highest of probability that the phrase in Romans 9:5, “who is over all God blessed forever” refers to Jesus the Messiah. As seen in point 4 above, in Paul’s theology, Christ is the supreme God, which is congruous, not only within Paul’s own literature, but with the other biblical authors. Whereas Paul refers to Christ as “over all God” in Romans 9:5; John refers to Him as the “one and only God” and “the true God” (John 1:18; 1 John 5:20); the author of Hebrews refers to Him as “the God” (Heb.1:8) and unchangeable Creator—the YHWH of Psalm 102:25-27 (cf. Heb. 1:10-12); Peter refers to Him as “the God and Savior” (2 Pet. 1:1); and Jude refers to Him as “the only Master and Lord” (Jude 1:4).

Since his conversation on the road to Damascus, Paul’s life was forever changed. He personally encountered the “the great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). The Christ that Paul preached was from the line of David “according to the flesh” and as to His divine nature, He is “over all God blessed forever, Amen.”

Those who wish to engage with a reasoned response please take note. This is what SOUND exegesis looks like.
 
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Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Third installment in Romans 9:5 series.

whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen

Here are some quotes that I copied from The Trinity: Evidence and Issues

Canon Liddon in his Bampton lectures at Oxford University said that a doxology to Christ as God "is the natural sense of the passage. If the passage occurred in a profane author and its essence and structure alone had to be considered, few critics would think of overlooking the antithesis between [Greek which I, AP, am guessing should be transliterated as 'ho Christos to kata sarka'] and [Greek: 'theos eulogetos']. Still less possible would it be to destroy this antithesis outright, and to impoverish the climax of the whole passage, by cutting off the doxology from the clause which precedes it, and so erecting it into an independent ascription of praise to God the Father."

Hendriksen wrote:
"This item serves as a fitting climax. From them, that is, from the Israelites (see verse 4) Christ derived his human nature. He was and is a Jew. What a source of intense satisfaction and rejoicing this should be for Jews! The apostle hastens to add that although Jesus is indeed a Jew, he is also much more than a Jew. Though he has a human nature, he also has a divine nature. He is God! It should be clear that when Paul says, 'Christ, who is over all God blest forever,' he confesses Christ's deity."

A.T Robertson wrote in his Word Studies
"A clear statement of the deity of christ following the remark about his humanity. This is the natural and the obvious way of punctuating the sentence. To make a full stop after sarka (or colon) and start a new sentence for the doxology is very abrupt and awkward. See Acts 20:28 and Titus 2:13 for Paul's use of theos applied to Jesus Christ."

Charles Hodge wrote:
"The relative who must agree with the nearest antecedent. There is no other subject in the context sufficiently prominent to make a departure from this ordinary rule, in this case, even plausible."

Dean Alford wrote:
"The rendering...is the only one admissible by the rules of grammar and arrangement."

Raymond Brown wrote:
"...This interpretation would mean that Paul calls Jesus God. From a grammatical viewpoint this is clearly the best reading, [sic] Also, the contextual sequence is excellent; for having spoken of Jesus' descent according to the flesh, Paul now emphasizes his position as God."

Lenski wrote:
"Christ is over all, i.e., the supreme Lord. This apposition is complete in itself. If no more were added, this apposition makes Christ God, for we have yet to hear of one who is 'over all' and is not God."

Robert Haldane wrote:
"The awful blindness and obstinacy of Arians and Socinians in their explanations, or rather perversions, of the Word of God, are in nothing more obvious than in their attempts to evade the meaning of this celebrated testimony to the Godhead of our Lord Jesus Christ. They often shelter themselves under various readings; but here they have no tenable ground for an evasion of this kind. Yet, strange to say, some of them have, without the authority of manuscripts, alter the original, in order that it may suit their purpose. there is no difficulty in the words - no intricacy in the construction; yet, by a forced construction and an unnatural punctuation, they have endeavored to turn away this testimony from its obvious import. Contrary to the genius and idiom of the Greek - contrary to all the usual rules of interpreting language, as had often been incontrovertibly shown - they substitute 'God be blessed'...Such tortuous explanations are not only rejected by a sound interpretation of the original, but manifest themselves to be unnatural, even to the most illiterate who exercises an unprejudiced judgment."

Quotes taken from pages 332-335 of Robert Morey's The Trinity: Evidence and Issues. I'm too lazy to type out all the sources. So, if you want the sources, get a copy of Morey's book.

Charles Hodge in his Systematic Theology states:

In the epistles of Paul, the same exalted exhibition is made of the person and work of Christ. In the Epistle to the Romans, Christ is declared to be the Son of God, the object of faith, the judge of the world, the God of providence, the giver of the Holy Spirit, and what in the Old Testament is said of Jehovah, the Apostle applies to Christ. In chapter ix. 5, He is expressly declared to be “over all, God blessed forever.” The text here is beyond dispute. The only method to avoid the force of the passage is by changing the punctuation. Erasmus, who has been followed by many modern interpreters, placed a full stop after κατὰ σάρκα, or after πάντων. In the former case the passage would read, “Of whom is Christ concerning the flesh. The God who is over all be blessed forever;” in the latter, “Of whom Christ came concerning the flesh, who is above all,” i.e., higher than the patriarchs. It is frankly admitted by the advocates of these interpretations that the reason for adopting them is to avoid making the Apostle assert that Christ is God over all. As they do not admit that doctrine, they are unwilling to admit that the Apostle teaches it. It was universally referred to Christ in the ancient Church, by all the Reformers, by all the older theologians, and by almost all of the modern interpreters who believe in the divinity of Christ. This uniformity of assent is itself a decisive proof that the common interpretation is the natural one. We are bound to take every passage of Scripture in its obvious and natural sense, unless the plainer declarations of the Word of God show that a less obvious meaning must be the true one. That the common interpretation of this passage is correct is plain, —

1. Because Christ is the subject of discourse; God is not mentioned in the context. The Apostle is mentioning the distinguishing blessings of the Jewish nation. To them were given the law, the glory, the covenant, and the promises, and above all, from them “as concerning the flesh (i.e., as far as his humanity is concerned), Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever.” Here everything 512is natural and to the point. It shows how preeminent was the distinction of the Jews that from them the Messiah, God manifest in the flesh, should be born. Compared to this all the other prerogatives of their nation sink into insignificance.

2. The words κατὰ σάρκα demand an antithesis. There would be no reason for saying that Christ, as far as He was a man, was descended from the Jews, if He was not more than man, and if there were not a sense in which He was not descended from them. As in Rom. i. 3, 4, it is said that κατὰ σάρκα He was the Son of David, but κατὰ πνεῦμα the Son of God; so here it is said, that κατὰ σάρκα He was descended from the patriarchs, but that in his higher nature He is God over all, blessed forever.

3. The usage of the language demands the common interpretation. In all exclamations and benedictions, in distinction from mere narration, the predicate uniformly stands before the subject, if the copula εἶναι omitted. This usage is strictly observed in the Septuagint, in the Apocrypha, and in the New Testament. We therefore always read in such doxologies εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεός, and never ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός. In the Hebrew Scriptures, בָרוּךְ occurs forty times in doxologies and formulas of praise before the subject. It is always “Blessed be God,” and never “God be blessed.” In the Septuagint, Psalm lxviii. 20 (19), κύριος ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός is the only apparent exception to this rule. And there the Hebrew adheres to the common form, and the Greek version is a rhetorical paraphrase of the original. The Hebrew is simply בָרוּךְ אֲדׁנָי אֲדֹנָי for which the LXX. have, Κύριος ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός, cὐλογητὸς κύριος. Every consideration, therefore, is in favour of the interpretation which has been accepted by the Church as giving the true meaning of this passage. Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Number 4 whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen Romans 9:5

Henry Alford in his The New Testament for English Readers vol. II (p. 80-81) states

—and of whom is Christ, so far as regards the flesh (the expression implies that He was not entirely sprung from them, but had another nature; 'on His human side,"—"as far as pertains to His human body"), who is God over all (this word all is of uncertain gender in the original, but must be probably taken as neuter: all things, not "all persons " compare ch. xi. 36), blessed for ever. Amen. — The punctuation and application of this doxology have been much disputed. By the early Church it was generally rendered as above, and applied to Christ. Passages, it is true, have been collected from the fathers to show that they applied the words "God over all" to the FATHER alone, and protested against their application to the SON; but these passages themselves protest only against the erroneous Noetian or Sabellian view of the identity of the Father and the Son, whereas in Eph. iv. 5, 6, "one Lord," "one God and Father of all, who is over all," are plainly distinguished. That our Lord is not, in the strict exclusive sense, "the God who is over all," every Christian will admit, that title being reserved for the Father : but that He is God over all" none of the above-mentioned passages goes to deny. — The first trace of a different interpretation, if it be one, is found in an assertion of the Emperor Julian, who says that our Lord is never called God by St. Paul, nor by St. Matthew, or St. Mark, but by St. John only. The next is in the punctuation of two of our later manuscripts of the eleventh and twelfth centuries, which arrange the sentence thus : "of whom as concerning the flesh is Christ. God over all [be] blessed for ever." This is followed by several among the moderns, and generally by Socinians. The objections to this rendering are, (1) ingenuously suggested by Socinus himself, and never yet obviated,—that without one exception in Hebrew or Greek, wherever an ascription of the blessing is found, the predicate blessed precedes the name of God. (2) That the words who is on this rendering, would be superfluous altogether (see below). (3) That the doxology would be unmeaning and frigid in the extreme. It is not the habit of the Apostle to break out into irrelevant ascriptions of praise; and certainly there is here nothing in the immediate context requiring one. If it be said that the survey of all these privileges bestowed on his people prompts the doxology,—surely such a view is most unnatural : for the sad subject of the Apostle's sympathy, to which he immediately recurs again, is the apparent inanity of all these privileges in the exclusion from life of those who were dignified with them. If it be said that the incarnation of Christ is the exciting cause, the words according to the flesh" come in most strangely, depreciating, as it would on that supposition, the greatness of the event, which then becomes a source of so lofty a thanksgiving. (4) That the expression "blessed for ever" is twice besides used by St. Paul, and each time unquestionably not in an ascription of praise, but in an assertion regarding the subject of the sentence. The places are, ch. i. 25, and 2 Cor. xi. 31 : whereas he uses the phrase "Blessed be God" as an ascription of praise, without joining "for ever." See the rest of the discussion in my Greek Test. I have shewn there, that the rendering given in the text is not only that most agreeable to the usage of the Apostle, but the only one admissible by the rules of grammar and arrangement. It also admirably suits the context : for, having enumerated the historic advantages of the Jewish people, he concludes by stating one which ranks far higher than all,—that from them sprung, according to the flesh, He who is God over all, blessed for ever.—Amen is the accustomed ending of such solemn declarations of the divine Majesty : compare ch. i. 25


James White summarizes the reasons he believes Rom. 9:5 does refer to Christ as God.

The arguments in favor of seeing this passage as a reference to the deity of Christ are many. I will summarize them here.8

(1) It is the natural reading of the text to see the entire verse as referring to Christ. Breaking the sentence up into two parts leads to difficulties in translation and interpretation. Some words become superfluous,9 and the balance of the sentence is thrown off.10

(2) The phrase "who is" is used by Paul elsewhere to modify a word in the preceding context ( as in 2 Corinthians 11:31, a very close parallel), and would naturally do so here as well.

(3) The form of the doxology simply will not allow for it to be separated from the preceding context, Paul's consistent usage connects the doxology to the discussion of Christ. In his other doxologies11 he follows this pattern.

(4) In the Greek New Testament, and in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), the word "blessed" always12 comes before the word "God," but here in Romans 9:5 it follows, which would indicate that the "blessing" is tied to what came before (i.e., the discussion of Christ). So strong is this last point that Metzger said it is "altogether incredible that Paul, whose ear must have been perfectly familiar with this constantly recurring formula of praise, should in this solitary instance have departed from established usage."13

Add to these weighty considerations the testimony of many of the early [Church] Fathers as well,14 and the conclusion is inescapable: Paul breaks into praise at the majesty of the person of the Messiah who has come into the world through the Jewish race. The very God who is over all has entered into flesh, and for this, Paul gives glory and honor.

-James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pp. 73-74

Note # 8. For discussions of this passage and the various translational issues involved, see. C. E. B. Cranfield, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans in The International Critical Commentary (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1979), II:464–470; Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983), II:920–921; Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans in The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996), 565–568.

Note # 9. Specifically, there is no reason to include ὁ ὢν [this is the best I could reproduce the Greek - AP] in the final phrase if there is no direct connection to what has gone before.

Note # 10. Paul has spoken of the fleshly nature of the Messiah, and now speaks of the Messiah's spiritual nature as God. Breaking up the sentence leaves Paul speaking only of the Messiah "according to the flesh."

Note # 11. Romans 1:25; 11:36; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians1:5; 2 Timothy 4:18.

Note # 12. There is one possible exception at Psalm 67:19, though the text seems questionable at that point.

Note # 13. B.M. Metzger, "The Punctuation of Rom. 9:5" in Christ and Spirit in the New Testament: In Honour of Charles Francis Digby Moule, ed. B. Lindars and S. Smalley (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1973), 107.

Note # 14. Metzger mentions Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Athanasius, Epiphanius, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Theodoret, Augustine, Jerome, and Cyril of Alexandria, among others, as reading the passage in support of the deity of Christ.

-Notes found on page 205 in The Forgotten Trinity by James White
 
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Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Finally, regarding Romans 9:5.
whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen
ωJν οἱ πατέρες, καὶ εχ ωJν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα· ὁ ωJν ἐπὶ πάντωνθεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.


F.F. Bruce wrote:

5. To them belong the patriarchs. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his twelve sons, the primary recipients of the promises just mentioned.

Of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. Compare the affirmation of Christ’s Davidic descent in 1:3, and the later statement that ‘Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs’ (15:8). In him all God’s promises to Israel reach their consummation.

God who is over all be blessed for ever. The relation of these words to those which precede is disputed, RSV takes them as an independent ascription of praise to God, prompted by the mention of God’s crowning his many blessings on Israel by sending them the Messiah (similarly NEB, GNB). They may be taken, on the other hand, as in apposition to ‘the Christ’; so RSV margin: ‘who is God over all, blessed for ever’ (similarly AV, RV, NIV).

The latter construction is more in keeping with the general structure of the sentence (cf. 1:25, where the words ‘who is blessed for ever! Amen’ are not an independent ascription of praise but the integral peroration of the sentence, standing in apposition to ‘the Creator’). It is further supported by the consideration that something is required to balance the phrase ‘according to the flesh’ (as in 1:3–4, where the same phrase is balanced by ‘according to the Spirit of holiness’). Here the Messiah is said, with regard to his human descent, to have come of a long line of Israelite ancestors; but as regards his eternal being, he is ‘God over all, blessed for ever’.

It is true that Paul is not in the habit of calling Christ ‘God’; he reserves for him the title ‘Lord’: ‘for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist’ (1 Cor. 8:6). Yet for Paul Christ is the one in whom, through whom and for whom all things were created (Col. 1:16), in whom ‘the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily’ (Col. 2:9). ‘The judgment seat of God’ (14:10) is called in 2 Corinthians 5:10 ‘the judgment seat of Christ’. Moreover, when Paul gives Jesus the title ‘Lord’, he does so because God the Father has bestowed this title on him as ‘the name which is above every name’ (Phil. 2:9). This title ‘Lord’ is given to Jesus by Paul as the equivalent of Yahweh; his application of Isaiah 45:23 (cf. Rom. 14:11) to Jesus in Philippians 2:10–11indicates that to him the confession ‘Jesus Christ is Lord’ is equivalent to ‘Jesus Christ is Yahweh’.

It is, on the other hand, impermissible to charge those who prefer to treat the words as an independent doxology with Christological unorthodoxy. The words can indeed be so treated, and the decision about their construction involves a delicate assessment of the balance of probability this way and that.2[See Below For Note]
Amen. A proper conclusion to doxological language (cf. 1:25; 11:36; Gal. 1:5; Eph. 3:21; Phil. 4:20; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; 2 Tim. 4:18). In addition, it forms a fitting conclusion here to the very positive catalogue of Israel’s ancestral blessings (including, be it noted, ‘the giving of the law’)—a fuller answer to the question ‘what advantage has the Jew?’ (Rom. 3:1) than it received in its immediate context. Such a positive catalogue (which may also have been called for by the Jewish-Gentile situation in the Roman church) emphasizes the seriousness of the problem which Paul is about to propound.

The following is note #2:

For the construction preferred here see O. Cullmann, The Christology of the New Testament, E. T. (1959), pp. 312f.: J. Munck, Christ and Israel, E. T. (1967), pp. 32f.; B. M. Metzger, New Testament Studies (1980), pp. 57–74. For the other see V. Taylor, The Person of Christ in New Testament Teaching (1958), pp. 55–57; E. Käsemann, ad loc.

-Romans: An Introduction and Commentary by F.F. Bruce [volume 6 in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries series with Leon Morris as General Editor]

Douglas Moo wrote:

The greatest blessing promised to Israel was the Messiah, that is, the Christ. From a strictly human point of view (“according to the flesh” here again; NIV “the human ancestry”), the Messiah was to arise from the people of Israel. But from the divine point of view, he is more; indeed, he is God. At least, this is the reading found in several English translations (NIV; KJV; NASB; JB; NRSV). Note, for instance, the NRSV: “From them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.” Here the Messiah is identified as “God.”

Other English translations do not make this identification. Note, for instance, the RSV: “Of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen” (see also NEB; TEV). As may be obvious from these conflicting renderings, the issue is how to punctuate the verse. Since most ancient manuscripts do not have punctuation, modern interpreters have to decide whether to put a comma or a period after “Messiah.” The issue is complicated, but both the syntax and the context favor the comma.6 [see below for Note] This verse, therefore, deserves to be numbered among those few in the New Testament that explicitly call Jesus “God.”

Note #6:

6. See esp. Bruce M. Metzger, “The Punctuation of Rom. 9:5,” in Christ and Spirit in the New Testament: In Honour of Charles Francis Digby Moule (ed. B. Lindars and S. Smalley; Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1973), 95–112; Murray J. Harris, Jesus as “God”: Theos as a Christological Title in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992), 144–72.

-Romans: the NIV Application Commentary by Douglas Moo [in The NIV Application Commentary Series with Terry Muck as General Editor]

E.W. Bullinger wrote:

To account for various readings, the R.V. sometimes appeals in the margin to ancient authorities, meaning Greek MSS., &c., but here, and here only, modern interpreters are allowed to introduce, by varying punctuation, devices for destroying this emphatic testimony to the Deity of the Lord.

- footnote for Rom. 9:5 in The Companion Bible

Of course, there are arguments against Rom. 9:5 teaching Jesus is the Blessed God. For example:

"God Over All" in Romans 9:5: Translation Issues and Theological Import
Does Paul say that Jesus is God in Romans 9:5?

However, I believe the preponderance of the evidence is that it does teach Jesus is the Blessed God. Besides, it's consistent with all the other evidences for Christ's full deity and incarnation. Some of which I've provided in the various blogposts in this blog.

On the assumption that Jesus isn't being called "the Blessed God" in Roman 9:5, there's another verse in the Bible that's interesting, John 3:31.

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.- John 3:31

In this verse Jesus describes Himself as the one who came down from heaven and then refers to Himself as "above all." This seems to parallel Rom. 9:5 which states that the Blessed God is "over all" (cf. Rom. 10:12; Acts 10:36). Therefore suggesting Jesus is either claiming (or hinting at) His full deity in John 3:31. Notice too that immediately after Rom. 10:12, which seems to refer to Jesus as "Lord of all," Paul quotes Joel 2:32 in verse 13 and applies it to Jesus even though the original context refers to Jehovah/Yahweh, the one true God.

John Gill in his commentary states regarding John 3:31 and the phrase "above all":

above John, before whom he was preferred, for he was before him; above the prophets of the Old Testament, and even above Moses, the chief of them; yea, above all the angels in heaven, being God over all, blessed for ever: wherefore all glory is to be given him; no honour is to be envied him, or detracted from him.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Hello again...... I read all, ok?
I am very sure that Yeshua barYosef the handworker did exist, that he did meet with John the Baptist, was baptised, did start his own mission which lasted about 11-12 months and did end in Jerusalem during passover week.

Wow! Okay, at least we both agree that Christ did exist and was not a fairy tale. That’s a good start. I disagree Christ’s mission lasted only 11-12 months though, but “getting into this” would only derail thread theme.

G-Mark less the last verses and evangelical tinkereings is a good report about it all. Mark was probably a witness. But Matthew and Luke both needed to copy Mark's story and I doubt that they were witnesses at all.

John the author of G-John probably never saw Galilee in his entire lifetime. He doesn't even know how to patch the anecdotes together into an accurate timeline.

So that's my 'take' on Yeshua and his mission. Since two Yeshuas were arrested and convicted in Jerusalem that week, as reported in the gospels, I'm not even sure which one was executed. It's all there in the gospels.

:)

I don’t see this as anything new. Certainly the skeptics and critics have been arguing, rather unsuccessfully, for scriptural “inconsistencies” for hundreds of years, yet here we are with a Christian church that is the largest in the world.

I also realize it’s up to orthodox Christianity to defend scripture as our Unitarian posters have a peculiar tendency to quietly recede into the background whenever someone attacks the bible’s veracity. It’s only to promote a peculiar doctrine or to attack the Trinity that they find their voice, and generally only to proof text or shout “apostate!”

So I’ve thought of opening a new thread and giving our Unitarian friends a second shot…a chance to show how, as guardians of “true” doctrine…they would successfully defend scripture against the heretics, skeptics and critics before the “apostate” church arose and managed to swallow them whole, never to reappear until divine truth was rediscovered by so-and-so recently.:rolleyes:

But I see this as another thread, for another time, when I have more time to respond. They certainly were encouraged and afforded ample opportunity to defend scripture here, but it looks like the constant chirping of crickets every time they spoke may have drowned their voice. :(

However, if you have a scripture quoted by Rick B. or myself in defense of the Trinity which you find particularly onerous or dubious, please let us know the basis so we can take a look at it. I think Rick has already addressed most of the major issues.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
There is a difference in believers of the Bible, some think it's word for word but everyone who at least follows the Bible will see it as a means to salvation even if not word for word. What people tend to stick to is what's called the red letters, words of Christ. Most Christian have no issues with christs words, maybe problems with Paul but not Jesus, so if Jesus says God the father is above them then Christian's tend to believe it above any religious dogma. So with my belief, the Bible is fallible but not ge words of Jesus, he is the one that has to say he is god the father. Pharisees even accused him of claiming to be God and he simply referenced Old Testament claiming that everyone are sons of god.

I’ve heard of the red letter Christian movement but view it as contrary to 2 Timothy 3:16, Revelation 22:18, and Jesus’ own words at John 15: 26-27. Granted Thomas doubted his fellow apostles but I don’t see this as an attitude lauded by Jesus.

Again, I see the introduction of new heresies as an easier task if we first heave most of the New Testament over the side. This was a problem confronting the early church which led to the development (authentication) of our canon. Why reintroduce the problem now?

Psalm 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

There are others on this forum who mention this verse, but I just don’t see why any non/anti Trinitarians would quote it to show Jesus is not God. The Hebrew word used for “God” (“Elohim”) can also mean judge or ruler, and in fact God was referencing the corrupt and immoral Judges of Israel.

The argument seems to go like this:

1. God called the corrupt judges of Israel Gods, so this means Jesus cannot possibly be God. This argument makes no logical sense to me whatsoever, but if it does to anyone here perhaps they could explain their rationale to the rest of us. –or-

2. God called the corrupt judges of Israel Gods, and Jesus was simply pointing out the striking similarity between him and the corrupt judges of Israel. Slightly better than the prior argument but still makes no rational sense. If someone is picking up rocks because they think I’m a blasphemer or murderer, I’m not going to allay there fears by pointing at another group of blasphemers and murders and equating myself to them. –or-

3. Jesus wanted to float the idea that everyone is “a God” and this was his trial balloon into polytheism. I don’t believe this gets much credence outside of Kingdom Halls and the Church of Latter Day Saints.​

There is little attempt reconcile this verse with other scripture (2 Kings 19:15, Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:14) in the non-Trinitarian world. Jesus was not commenting on his deity (or lack thereof) but simply responding to the Pharisee’s charge of blasphemy. In other words, if the Pharisees didn’t pick up stones when God convicted their corrupt judges, why now pick up stones against me?

From my perspective it was another exposure of their hypocrisy and not a statement regarding deity for the reasons enumerated above.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Those who wish to engage with a reasoned response please take note. This is what SOUND exegesis looks like.

I tagged this a "winner". Quite simply, this thread should be referenced if someone has questions or wants to learn about the Trinity.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Wow! Okay, at least we both agree that Christ did exist and was not a fairy tale. That’s a good start. I disagree Christ’s mission lasted only 11-12 months though, but "getting into this" would only derail thread theme.
Hello again.... :)
Not 'Christ', just Yeshua the handworker.
G-Mark shows a timeline of nearly one year. If you believe in G-John's three year timeline then that's up to you, but anyone can see that his various records are all mixed up, and Yeshua didn't go anywhere near Jerusalem until the last week of his mission.
I don’t see this as anything new. Certainly the skeptics and critics have been arguing, rather unsuccessfully, for scriptural "inconsistencies" for hundreds of years, yet here we are with a Christian church that is the largest in the world.
The academics, translators and historians have noted many inconsistencies; they aren't all skeptics but rather objective researchers.
And here you are with Christianity split up into over 3000 differing Churches, Denominations and Creeds. So many of you are in contention with each other.
I also realize it’s up to orthodox Christianity to defend scripture as our Unitarian posters have a peculiar tendency to quietly recede into the background whenever someone attacks the bible’s veracity. It’s only to promote a peculiar doctrine or to attack the Trinity that they find their voice, and generally only to proof text or shout "apostate!"
Well, most Unitarians accept much of the gospels apart from the Trinity which isn't really clearly shown anywhere in the NT. God is God, and Prophets are Prophets to them, and Islam, Bahai and Judaism agrees with them on that particular point.
So I’ve thought of opening a new thread and giving our Unitarian friends a second shot…a chance to show how, as guardians of "true" doctrine…they would successfully defend scripture against the heretics, skeptics and critics before the "apostate" church arose and managed to swallow them whole, never to reappear until divine truth was rediscovered by so-and-so recently.
That's all very well, but most Unitarians are very quiet humble people and they might evangelise but they don't strut their stuff, if you know what I mean.
But I see this as another thread, for another time, when I have more time to respond. They certainly were encouraged and afforded ample opportunity to defend scripture here, but it looks like the constant chirping of crickets every time they spoke may have drowned their voice.
Who knows? Maybe they thought you guys were shouting so much that you would never hear them? I'm not a Unitarian Christian so I'm only making suggestions here.
However, if you have a scripture quoted by Rick B. or myself in defense of the Trinity which you find particularly onerous or dubious, please let us know the basis so we can take a look at it. I think Rick has already addressed most of the major issues.
If you would like to post up a couple of clear scriptures where Jesus (Yeshua) states all then ok, but constant references to the unknown letters, Paul's letters or John's babble can't help too much.
:)
 
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