The Bible declares that Jesus is God

[Oeste]

And here you are with Christianity split up into over 3000 differing Churches, Denominations and Creeds. So many of you are in contention with each other.

Actually I see a church that works rather harmoniously together within the body of Christ. I view the idea that we must dress, act, think and/or worship the same as cultist rather than Christian theology.

Well, most Unitarians accept much of the gospels apart from the Trinity which isn't really clearly shown anywhere in the NT.

I disagree, but my point was that most Unitarians on this board attack or undermine scripture in some way, then tell us it is only after the attack and correction that scripture becomes “believable”, then do a very poor job defending scripture. You yourself attack all things Johannine. Where were these “true” believers and protectors of the gospel? They were all over the place when the focus was on the Trinity.

God is God, and Prophets are Prophets to them, and Islam, Bahai and Judaism agrees with them on that particular point.

As I’ve stated many times on this thread, Unitarians willingly invite Bahai, Islam, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Judaism or whatever to sing in their anti-Trinitarian choir, but don’t seem to notice when these same folks sneak out back and take a sledge hammer to the foundations of the NT church. If this were not the case they would be just as animated defending the NT as they are anti-Trinitarian dogma.

That's all very well, but most Unitarians are very quiet humble people and they might evangelise but they don't strut their stuff, if you know what I mean.

Not exactly…if by “strut their stuff” you mean their pride in Christ, I think you undersell the faith of Unitarians. If by “strut their stuff” you mean their theology, then all you have to do is examine this thread.

The Trinity has been proudly displayed as a 3 headed elephant, a “monster God”, and the belief Christ’s body went apostate sometime in the 3rd or 4th century. On another thread it was alleged Trinitarian doctrine originated from Pergamon, the throne of Satan. The latter even came with a map.

Who knows? Maybe they thought you guys were shouting so much that you would never hear them? I'm not a Unitarian Christian so I'm only making suggestions here.

I freely admit I can’t state with definitive certainty either, so on this we are agreed. As to shouting, the portrayal of Trinitarian theology by anti-Trinitarians on this thread has certainly been loud, incorrect, oft times mocking and boisterous. Rick couldn't have started it at a better time.

If you would like to post up a couple of clear scriptures where Jesus (Yeshua) states all then ok,...

See posts # 40, 41, 42, and 43.

....but constant references to the unknown letters, Paul's letters or John's babble can't help too much.

Keep in mind the assertion of this thread, "The bible declares that Jesus is God" which by any reasonable definition includes Paul and John.

Obviously we disagree, and rather strongly, on many points. However I appreciate the time and effort to explain your theology and engage in conversation.

 

[Rick B]

Hello again....
Not 'Christ', just Yeshua the handworker.
G-Mark shows a timeline of nearly one year. If you believe in G-John's three year timeline then that's up to you, but anyone can see that his various records are all mixed up, and Yeshua didn't go anywhere near Jerusalem until the last week of his mission.

The academics, translators and historians have noted many inconsistencies; they aren't all skeptics but rather objective researchers.
And here you are with Christianity split up into over 3000 differing Churches, Denominations and Creeds. So many of you are in contention with each other.

Well, most Unitarians accept much of the gospels apart from the Trinity which isn't really clearly shown anywhere in the NT. God is God, and Prophets are Prophets to them, and Islam, Bahai and Judaism agrees with them on that particular point.

That's all very well, but most Unitarians are very quiet humble people and they might evangelise but they don't strut their stuff, if you know what I mean.

Who knows? Maybe they thought you guys were shouting so much that you would never hear them? I'm not a Unitarian Christian so I'm only making suggestions here.

If you would like to post up a couple of clear scriptures where Jesus (Yeshua) states all then ok, but constant references to the unknown letters, Paul's letters or John's babble can't help too much.

We would be happy to assist you, however, since you reject the Gospel of John, which coincidentally stresses Christ' divine nature, and John's writings as "babble", as well as Paul's letters and "unknown letters" (I don't know what you're talking about here) that eliminates:
The Gospel of John
1 John
2 John
3 John
Revelation
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
And whatever you were referring to as "unknown letters".

This is a large amount of the New Testament that is dismissed. You also have not disclosed your assessment of which, if any, of the writings of the Old Testament you reject and which you accept as trustworthy. Would you please list them and then perhaps we could find, within your approved list, Scripture that which affirms the deity of Christ so as to settle the issue.

Don't get me wrong I understand your inclination to reject opposing references. I also reject your unnamed, unquoted, mysterious "Acedemics, translators, and historians" that discount the findings and conclusions of those engaged in textual criticism, archeology, and theologians etc of the historical orthodox Christian faith.

The orthodox Christian faith regards all 66 books of the Bible as its final authority.
Since everyone has an ultimate authority to which they base their truth claims, may I ask your's?

 

[oldbadger]

Actually I see a church that works rather harmoniously together within the body of Christ. I view the idea that we must dress, act, think and/or worship the same as cultist rather than Christian theology.

....within the body of Christ?
Harmoniously?
Many Christians believe that they only, the few, have been freely given salvation through the grace of God, and that regardless of what all the other Christians do, say or believe they are already lost.
That's just ONE of so many hundreds of differing types of belief and Faith.

You yourself attack all things Johannine.

No I don't!
There are many many pericopes within G-John that seem absolutely spot-on and very valuable to me. It's just that John collected these and then had to sort or scatter them into some kind of story because he himself most certainly was not a witness.
Even the later additions to G-John like the adultery periciope are probably true, but they needed to be included later because the oral-tradition that carried them was rated as 'accurate'
I can point to many parts of G-John that are good, but John was not a witness.
No way.

As I’ve stated many times on this thread, Unitarians willingly invite Bahai, Islam, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Judaism or whatever to sing in their anti-Trinitarian choir, but don’t seem to notice when these same folks sneak out back and take a sledge hammer to the foundations of the NT church.

Because all of the above folks are either Unitarian or Atheist depending on which group you look at. And not many of those are deeply involved with the NT, only Abrahamic religions.
It's better if you don't use rhetoric like 'all singing in the choir' because many of the above groups don't sing in choirs. Your rhetoric clouds your messages imo.

Not exactly…if by “strut their stuff” you mean their pride in Christ, I think you undersell the faith of Unitarians.

I said that they DON'T strut their stuff...... Unitarians are quite humvble, most of them.

The Trinity has been proudly displayed as a 3 headed elephant, a “monster God”, and the belief Christ’s body went apostate sometime in the 3rd or 4th century. On another thread it was alleged Trinitarian doctrine originated from Pergamon, the throne of Satan. The latter even came with a map.

You won't see or hear any true Unitarians speaking like that. I have known Unitarians as long as I have known Trinitarians......... it's just a matter of what they believe.

All you have to do is tell me that you have Faith about something and I will acknowledge that...... I don't seek to trample anybody's faith.

See posts # 40, 41, 42, and 43.

I will wander back to persuse those posts, but they're filled with mostly waffle..... I just needed ONE passage by JESUS that was clear, and the reason that there isn't one is because Jesus's mission was to rouse the people in order to force a return of the old laws especially the poor-laws which had been long ignored by a quisling, hellenised, greedy, corrupt priesthood.

The priesthood had even allowed the introduction of Temple Shekels struck with graven images, Caesar's initials and the head of the God Baal....... no wonder Jesus's main message was 'Mercy not Sacrifice!' which of course was why he joined with Jochanon the Immerser.

Keep in mind the assertion of this thread, "The bible declares that Jesus is God" which by any reasonable definition includes Paul and John.

Yes..... and there are tens of books in the NT, chosen in the fourth century over tens of others. It's so sad about the books that were destroyed.

Obviously we disagree, and rather strongly, on many points. However I appreciate the time and effort to explain your theology and engage in conversation.

Thankyou..... and to you.
I just study the life and mission of the handworker Yeshua son of Yosef BarJacob and Miriam BartaHeli.

 

[oldbadger]

We would be happy to assist you, however, since you reject the Gospel of John, which coincidentally stresses Christ' divine nature, and John's writings as "babble", as well as Paul's letters and "unknown letters" (I don't know what you're talking about here) that eliminates:
The Gospel of John
1 John
2 John
3 John
Revelation
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
And whatever you were referring to as "unknown letters".

This is a large amount of the New Testament that is dismissed. You also have not disclosed your assessment of which, if any, of the writings of the Old Testament you reject and which you accept as trustworthy. Would you please list them and then perhaps we could find, within your approved list, Scripture that which affirms the deity of Christ so as to settle the issue.

Don't get me wrong I understand your inclination to reject opposing references. I also reject your unnamed, unquoted, mysterious "Acedemics, translators, and historians" that discount the findings and conclusions of those engaged in textual criticism, archeology, and theologians etc of the historical orthodox Christian faith.

The orthodox Christian faith regards all 66 books of the Bible as its final authority.
Since everyone has an ultimate authority to which they base their truth claims, may I ask your's?

Fair enough.
My research focuses upon the record of a witness, the young guy who followed Cephas, who was at the arrest, who was taken hold of, tore out of his clothing and got away into the darkness. His record, the memoirs of Cephas and many other parts of the gospels ioncluding G-John seem to have historic value.
But my research ends at the end of those gospels.

I study Historic Jesus, but have no real interest in in Historic Christianity, hence my disinterest in the rest of the NT.

Strangely, at times when Christians debate with Atheists about the existence of Jesus Christians can be quite pleased for my input.

 

[Rick B]

Fair enough.
My research focuses upon the record of a witness, the young guy who followed Cephas, who was at the arrest, who was taken hold of, tore out of his clothing and got away into the darkness. His record, the memoirs of Cephas and many other parts of the gospels ioncluding G-John seem to have historic value.
But my research ends at the end of those gospels.

I study Historic Jesus, but have no real interest in in Historic Christianity, hence my disinterest in the rest of the NT.

Strangely, at times when Christians debate with Atheists about the existence of Jesus Christians can be quite pleased for my input.

Since you gave no allowance for the first 39 books of the Bible, and regard John's writings as "babble" and leave open to self-delimiting any Gospel or Petrine references as having some vague "historic value" I will restrict my response to the Gospel of Mark to which your research focuses upon.

The consensus among scholars and laymen alike regard the sections below as affirming Christ's divine nature.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“Behold, I send My messenger ahead of You,
Who will prepare Your way;
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
‘Make ready the way of the Lord,
Make His paths straight.’”

Compare Mark v. 2 with: Malachi 3:1
“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me.

It is God himself who is coming. Notice that Mal 3:1 originally read “my messenger” who will prepare the way before “Me.” The rest of Mal 3:1 (not cited by Mark) makes this clear, “And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple.” For Mark to apply Mal 3:1 to the coming of Jesus, which he is clearly doing, is a very plain way of saying that Jesus is God coming to visit his people. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise in Mal 3:1.

In order to make this point even more clearly, Mark offers a messianic interpretation of the verse. Mal 3:1 originally read “prepare the way before me,” but Mark changes the phrase to “who will prepare your way.” By doing this, Mark introduces a third person into the OT citation. Originally, the verse spoke of God (who is coming) and the messenger (who is preparing the way). Now, with Mark’s adjustment, the text speaks of God, the messenger, and the one who is coming in God’s place. And that one who is coming God’s place is none other than Jesus.

The fact that Mark is putting Jesus in the place of Yahweh is confirmed when we consider the second OT citation from Is 40:3:
"
Mark 1:3 (citing Is 40:3): “the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’”

Is 40:3: A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

Notice again that in the original context of Is 40:3, it is the LORD who is coming. And Mark applies this verse to Jesus. Moreover, notice that Mark offers another Christological change to his citation. Originally, Is 40:3 read “make straight…a highway for our God” but Mark changes it to “make his paths straight.”

Once again, Mark uses this little textual change to show that the coming of Yahweh, promised in Is 40:3, will be fulfilled by another coming in God’s place. And that person is Jesus.

In the end, Mark’s use of these OT passages is rather stunning. Rather than seeing Jesus as merely human, Mark wastes no time presenting Jesus as the fulfillment of Yahweh’s promise to come visit his people. Thus, for Mark, Jesus is God. Dr. Michael Kruger

Mark refers to Jesus as the "Son of God" and then immediately refers to him as YHWH in the wilderness just two verses later. So, we can understand the terms son of God is referring to the deity of Jesus.

In Mark 2:5-7, we read,
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

And indeed who can forgive sins but God alone? The sins that Jesus claimed authority to forgive were not sins that had been committed against him. Only God has authority to forgive in that way. The scribes understood the significance to Jesus’ claim to authority to forgive sins.

In Mark 2:27-28, when Jesus is accused by the pharisees of doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath, Jesus replied,
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."
How could anyone who is not God declare himself to be “Lord even of the Sabbath”?

By far Jesus’ favorite self-designation throughout the gospels is the title “Son of Man”, and this is a title used many times in Mark. Perhaps most notably, in Mark 14:61-64, we read the account of Jesus’ interrogation:

"Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death."

The Son of Man, in connection with “coming with the clouds of heaven”, is a clear reference back to Daniel 7:13-14 in which we read of Daniel’s vision:

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should worship him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

This divine-human figure seen by Daniel is said to receive worship from all nations — who but God is fit to receive worship? Indeed, the High Priest knew exactly what Jesus meant — and it resulted in him tearing his clothes and declaring Jesus a blasphemer. by Jonathan McLatchie

So, does the gospel of Mark teach the deity of Christ? Most definitely yes, it does.

 

[Oeste]

We would be happy to assist you, however, since you reject the Gospel of John, which coincidentally stresses Christ' divine nature, and John's writings as "babble", as well as Paul's letters and "unknown letters" (I don't know what you're talking about here) that eliminates:
The Gospel of John
1 John
2 John
3 John
Revelation
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
And whatever you were referring to as "unknown letters".

This is a large amount of the New Testament that is dismissed.

Agreed! That is quite a list!!

 

[Muffled]

Every trinity translation on earth teaches 2 different gods--they are error filled.
Catholicism brought in--statues, icons, graven images--they allowed their young men to blow each others heads off on the orders of men standing on both sides of the wars of hatred and greed-The rev war--the civil war, ww1,ww2--they even killed for Adolf Hitler--- Everyone listening to their translating put their eternal lives in their hands that they can accomplish this- John 4:22-24. Yet any who knows what the bible teaches can see clear--they are far removed from God and his son. None of her branches fixed the translating errors. The New world translation fixed the errors.
In the ot--I am that I am = translating error--in the Hebrew language--I will be what I will be is correct--So when Jesus said I am it had 0 to do with that Hebrew statement like trinities teach.
In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural when used for the true living God as GOD--only for false gods-- the trinity scholars know this fact, yet every Trinitarian believes it is plural for God--they as well believe it is a name--it is not, it is a Hebrew word that carries various meanings.

I believe you might as well say cows are pink. Without evidence you are just repeating someone else's errors.

I believe the Biblical evidence is to the contrary.

I am a Trinitarian and I find the former JW view on this reasonable.

The JW view I read was that the "im" ending made it plural but in the sense that water would have the "im" ending. I believe there is little doubt that it was the Caananite word for God just as God is our word for JHVH and god is our word for any other god.

 

[Muffled]

I tagged this a "winner". Quite simply, this thread should be referenced if someone has questions or wants to learn about the Trinity.

It might be that but I believe it is so lengthy it doesn't work in a debate thread.

 

[Muffled]

oldbadger said "Well, most Unitarians accept much of the gospels apart from the Trinity which isn't really clearly shown anywhere in the NT. God is God, and Prophets are Prophets to them, and Islam, Bahai and Judaism agrees with them on that particular point."

I don't believe that to be true. It is only unclear to those whose minds are muddled. It is quite clear to me.

I believe you are thinking that all prophets are homogenous. That is not true because they often speak about different things and sometimes those things are bound temporally.

I believe Islam is correct but the current Muslim thinking is not. The Trinity is in the Qu'ran.

I believe adherents of the Bah'ai tend to have a non-Trinitarian view but I have never seen them back it up.

I believe the Trinity is foretold by Isaiah but Judaism rejects that because they simply have an a priori anti-Christian view.

 

[Oeste]

....within the body of Christ?
Harmoniously?
Many Christians believe that they only, the few, have been freely given salvation through the grace of God, and that regardless of what all the other Christians do, say or believe they are already lost.
That's just ONE of so many hundreds of differing types of belief and Faith.

You’re describing cultist rather than Christian theology. The vast majority of Christian religions work harmoniously together.

The vast majority of Americans work together even though we differ by state, region, politic, culture, ethnicity or whatever. We will still have Americans that attack other Americans as we have Christians that attack other Christians. These few do not negate the harmonious union of the United States any more than a few Christians can negate our harmonious union within the body of Christ. In fact, it is easier for the US to fracture than the body of Christ to ever do so.

As to the cults, I don't claim they aren't Christian because that's something only Christ can do. However, I may claim a particular doctrine or practice as unChristian or heretical, and any any such assertion can then be threshed in a reasonable manner.

No I don't!
There are many many pericopes within G-John that seem absolutely spot-on and very valuable to me. It's just that John collected these and then had to sort or scatter them into some kind of story because he himself most certainly was not a witness.
Even the later additions to G-John like the adultery periciope are probably true, but they needed to be included later because the oral-tradition that carried them was rated as 'accurate'
I can point to many parts of G-John that are good, but John was not a witness.
No way.

Origen, Tertullian, Jerome...none of the early church patriarchs had a problem with John, freely quoting this work without reservation.

John doesn't give us the same view as the other Synoptics, adding much richer detail that compliments rather than contradicts the writing of Matthew and Mark. I see it no less inspired than the other Synoptic accounts. Again, this is away from thread theme, and another discussion for another time.

Because all of the above folks are either Unitarian or Atheist depending on which group you look at. And not many of those are deeply involved with the NT, only Abrahamic religions.

I’m referring to those posting on this forum. They appear to be deeply involved in adding, discounting, or modifying the NT to me.

It's better if you don't use rhetoric like 'all singing in the choir' because many of the above groups don't sing in choirs. Your rhetoric clouds your messages imo.

Lol, somehow I get the impression it’s your rhetoric, not mine, that seeks to cloud my message

You claim the Unitarians and atheists don’t sing in choirs, yet that’s exactly what I heard them doing earlier. They didn’t debate each other Old Badger, they sang together. Any doubt can be removed by reading the earlier posts on this thread.

I said that they DON'T strut their stuff...... Unitarians are quite humvble, most of them.

Then how is that not an undersell? Do Unitarians show less pride in their Savior than other Christians?

You won't see or hear any true Unitarians speaking like that. I have known Unitarians as long as I have known Trinitarians......... it's just a matter of what they believe.

Well, someone needs to answer the false Unitarians on this board and who better than Trinitarians? I fear if we wait for true Unitarians to do it, we may be waiting a very long time.

All you have to do is tell me that you have Faith about something and I will acknowledge that...... I don't seek to trample anybody's faith.

I’m not here to trample faiths either. However this is a debate forum affords us a marvelous opportunity to explain, explore, test and question.

I will wander back to persuse those posts, but they're filled with mostly waffle..... I just needed ONE passage by JESUS that was clear, and the reason that there isn't one is because Jesus's mission was to rouse the people in order to force a return of the old laws especially the poor-laws which had been long ignored by a quisling, hellenised, greedy, corrupt priesthood.

The priesthood had even allowed the introduction of Temple Shekels struck with graven images, Caesar's initials and the head of the God Baal....... no wonder Jesus's main message was 'Mercy not Sacrifice!' which of course was why he joined with Jochanon the Immerser.

If you need a verse you really need go no further than John 8:58. However, since you appear to pick and choose which verses to believe, it’s hard to know if you’ll consider it credulous. Also I noticed that Rick B pointed out Jesus can forgive sins…that’s a huge Biggie!

I’m not sure what the minting of shekels has to do with the Trinity. They were introduced in Exodus as a means of atonement. By the time of the 2nd temple building they were using Tyrian shekels most likely because they couldn’t mint them themselves…I would have to research that. After the Romans shut down the mint at Tyre the Pharisees probably saw an opportunity to cash in on the Roman occupation.

I seriously doubt the Romans would have allowed the Pharisees to mint coins that didn’t have Caesar’s mark on it. The question for me would be whether they minted voluntarily or through order, but this is far from thread theme.

Yes..... and there are tens of books in the NT, chosen in the fourth century over tens of others. It's so sad about the books that were destroyed.

We don’t know when the Great Library at Alexandria was burned (or if it was, in fact, actually burned), but one story is that an caliph Omar captured Alexandria after a long siege. When told he had also captured the Great Library which housed thousands of scrolls containing all of the world’s knowledge, he was purportedly unmoved, stating: “They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous”. For the next 6 months the bathhouses of Alexandria ran hot as the scrolls were burned for fuel.

The point is, no matter where the books are stored God assures us His words will never pass away. But I do see the passing of our man made institutions…the Great Library, the Library at Constantinople, the Theological Library etc., as regrettable.

 

[Riders]

Wow! Okay, at least we both agree that Christ did exist and was not a fairy tale. That’s a good start. I disagree Christ’s mission lasted only 11-12 months though, but “getting into this” would only derail thread theme.



I don’t see this as anything new. Certainly the skeptics and critics have been arguing, rather unsuccessfully, for scriptural “inconsistencies” for hundreds of years, yet here we are with a Christian church that is the largest in the world.

I also realize it’s up to orthodox Christianity to defend scripture as our Unitarian posters have a peculiar tendency to quietly recede into the background whenever someone attacks the bible’s veracity. It’s only to promote a peculiar doctrine or to attack the Trinity that they find their voice, and generally only to proof text or shout “apostate!”

So I’ve thought of opening a new thread and giving our Unitarian friends a second shot…a chance to show how, as guardians of “true” doctrine…they would successfully defend scripture against the heretics, skeptics and critics before the “apostate” church arose and managed to swallow them whole, never to reappear until divine truth was rediscovered by so-and-so recently.

But I see this as another thread, for another time, when I have more time to respond. They certainly were encouraged and afforded ample opportunity to defend scripture here, but it looks like the constant chirping of crickets every time they spoke may have drowned their voice.

However, if you have a scripture quoted by Rick B. or myself in defense of the Trinity which you find particularly onerous or dubious, please let us know the basis so we can take a look at it. I think Rick has already addressed most of the major issues.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist. My UU church and I believe this; teaches me that the Christian religion copied and plagorized beliefs from the Pagan religions of the world and that Christianity is a scam. What on earth makes you think the UU church would defend biblical scripture? There are also too many errors and contradictions in the bible, making it believable that the original scripts were not translated right,

I don't see this as anything new,Certainly the skeptics and critics have been arguing unsuccessfuly for scriptural inconsistencies r hundreds of years yet here we are with a Christian church that is the largest in the world.

Statistics say that Christianity has lost growth in the churches, Church attendance is down.Ive also read that the Muslim religion is the biggest religion in the world.Other religions membership has gone up while Christianity goes down.

 

[Riders]

You’re describing cultist rather than Christian theology. The vast majority of Christian religions work harmoniously together.

The vast majority of Americans work together even though we differ by state, region, politic, culture, ethnicity or whatever. We will still have Americans that attack other Americans as we have Christians that attack other Christians. These few do not negate the harmonious union of the United States any more than a few Christians can negate our harmonious union within the body of Christ. In fact, it is easier for the US to fracture than the body of Christ to ever do so.

As to the cults, I don't claim they aren't Christian because that's something only Christ can do. However, I may claim a particular doctrine or practice as unChristian or heretical, and any any such assertion can then be threshed in a reasonable manner.



Origen, Tertullian, Jerome...none of the early church patriarchs had a problem with John, freely quoting this work without reservation.

John doesn't give us the same view as the other Synoptics, adding much richer detail that compliments rather than contradicts the writing of Matthew and Mark. I see it no less inspired than the other Synoptic accounts. Again, this is away from thread theme, and another discussion for another time.



I’m referring to those posting on this forum. They appear to be deeply involved in adding, discounting, or modifying the NT to me.



Lol, somehow I get the impression it’s your rhetoric, not mine, that seeks to cloud my message

You claim the Unitarians and atheists don’t sing in choirs, yet that’s exactly what I heard them doing earlier. They didn’t debate each other Old Badger, they sang together. Any doubt can be removed by reading the earlier posts on this thread.



Then how is that not an undersell? Do Unitarians show less pride in their Savior than other Christians?



Well, someone needs to answer the false Unitarians on this board and who better than Trinitarians? I fear if we wait for true Unitarians to do it, we may be waiting a very long time.



I’m not here to trample faiths either. However this is a debate forum affords us a marvelous opportunity to explain, explore, test and question.



If you need a verse you really need go no further than John 8:58. However, since you appear to pick and choose which verses to believe, it’s hard to know if you’ll consider it credulous. Also I noticed that Rick B pointed out Jesus can forgive sins…that’s a huge Biggie!

I’m not sure what the minting of shekels has to do with the Trinity. They were introduced in Exodus as a means of atonement. By the time of the 2nd temple building they were using Tyrian shekels most likely because they couldn’t mint them themselves…I would have to research that. After the Romans shut down the mint at Tyre the Pharisees probably saw an opportunity to cash in on the Roman occupation.

I seriously doubt the Romans would have allowed the Pharisees to mint coins that didn’t have Caesar’s mark on it. The question for me would be whether they minted voluntarily or through order, but this is far from thread theme.



We don’t know when the Great Library at Alexandria was burned (or if it was, in fact, actually burned), but one story is that an caliph Omar captured Alexandria after a long siege. When told he had also captured the Great Library which housed thousands of scrolls containing all of the world’s knowledge, he was purportedly unmoved, stating: “They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous”. For the next 6 months the bathhouses of Alexandria ran hot as the scrolls were burned for fuel.

The point is, no matter where the books are stored God assures us His words will never pass away. But I do see the passing of our man made institutions…the Great Library, the Library at Constantinople, the Theological Library etc., as regrettable.

You said " The vast majority of Christian religions work together harmoniously. Are you kidding me? Out here in Tx the Baptists nondenominationals community churches bible churchs Pentecostals and holiness churches claim that Catholics are going to hell. They are ina ifght with churches like the Catholics ANglicans United Methodists and Episcapalians and the like because of the rituals. They don't get along at all.

 

[Riders]

You’re describing cultist rather than Christian theology. The vast majority of Christian religions work harmoniously together.

The vast majority of Americans work together even though we differ by state, region, politic, culture, ethnicity or whatever. We will still have Americans that attack other Americans as we have Christians that attack other Christians. These few do not negate the harmonious union of the United States any more than a few Christians can negate our harmonious union within the body of Christ. In fact, it is easier for the US to fracture than the body of Christ to ever do so.

As to the cults, I don't claim they aren't Christian because that's something only Christ can do. However, I may claim a particular doctrine or practice as unChristian or heretical, and any any such assertion can then be threshed in a reasonable manner.



Origen, Tertullian, Jerome...none of the early church patriarchs had a problem with John, freely quoting this work without reservation.

John doesn't give us the same view as the other Synoptics, adding much richer detail that compliments rather than contradicts the writing of Matthew and Mark. I see it no less inspired than the other Synoptic accounts. Again, this is away from thread theme, and another discussion for another time.



I’m referring to those posting on this forum. They appear to be deeply involved in adding, discounting, or modifying the NT to me.



Lol, somehow I get the impression it’s your rhetoric, not mine, that seeks to cloud my message

You claim the Unitarians and atheists don’t sing in choirs, yet that’s exactly what I heard them doing earlier. They didn’t debate each other Old Badger, they sang together. Any doubt can be removed by reading the earlier posts on this thread.



Then how is that not an undersell? Do Unitarians show less pride in their Savior than other Christians?



Well, someone needs to answer the false Unitarians on this board and who better than Trinitarians? I fear if we wait for true Unitarians to do it, we may be waiting a very long time.



I’m not here to trample faiths either. However this is a debate forum affords us a marvelous opportunity to explain, explore, test and question.



If you need a verse you really need go no further than John 8:58. However, since you appear to pick and choose which verses to believe, it’s hard to know if you’ll consider it credulous. Also I noticed that Rick B pointed out Jesus can forgive sins…that’s a huge Biggie!

I’m not sure what the minting of shekels has to do with the Trinity. They were introduced in Exodus as a means of atonement. By the time of the 2nd temple building they were using Tyrian shekels most likely because they couldn’t mint them themselves…I would have to research that. After the Romans shut down the mint at Tyre the Pharisees probably saw an opportunity to cash in on the Roman occupation.

I seriously doubt the Romans would have allowed the Pharisees to mint coins that didn’t have Caesar’s mark on it. The question for me would be whether they minted voluntarily or through order, but this is far from thread theme.



We don’t know when the Great Library at Alexandria was burned (or if it was, in fact, actually burned), but one story is that an caliph Omar captured Alexandria after a long siege. When told he had also captured the Great Library which housed thousands of scrolls containing all of the world’s knowledge, he was purportedly unmoved, stating: “They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous”. For the next 6 months the bathhouses of Alexandria ran hot as the scrolls were burned for fuel.

The point is, no matter where the books are stored God assures us His words will never pass away. But I do see the passing of our man made institutions…the Great Library, the Library at Constantinople, the Theological Library etc., as regrettable.

You said " The vast majority of Christian religions work together harmoniously. Are you kidding me? Out here in Tx the Baptists nondenominationals community churches bible churchs Pentecostals and holiness churches claim that Catholics are going to hell. They are in a fight with churches like the Catholics Anglicans United Methodists and Episcopalians and the like because of the rituals. They don't get along at all.

My sisters Messianic Christians church doesn't get along with anyone but them, some Pentecostals believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved a don't get along with any non Pentecostals theres along list like this. Believe me Christians do not get along harmoniously.

 

[kjw47]

I believe you might as well say cows are pink. Without evidence you are just repeating someone else's errors.

I believe the Biblical evidence is to the contrary.

I am a Trinitarian and I find the former JW view on this reasonable.

The JW view I read was that the "im" ending made it plural but in the sense that water would have the "im" ending. I believe there is little doubt that it was the Caananite word for God just as God is our word for JHVH and god is our word for any other god.

Any one who cares about entering Gods kingdom will check facts--like the ones I presented--they are fact.
It has 0 to do with what the JWs do.. Its Hebrew language fact. Your scholars know its fact--they do 0. It exposes their religions as false blind guides. Those religions are pulling in billions.

 

[Oeste]

I'm a Unitarian Universalist. My UU church and I believe this; teaches me that the Christian religion copied and plagorized beliefs from the Pagan religions of the world and that Christianity is a scam. What on earth makes you think the UU church would defend biblical scripture? There are also too many errors and contradictions in the bible, making it believable that the original scripts were not translated right,

Exactly!

Thank you, Rider. It’s rare when someone with an opposing view will charge in and make your point for you so forcibly and in such a timely manner. I salute you!

Statistics say that Christianity has lost growth in the churches, Church attendance is down.Ive also read that the Muslim religion is the biggest religion in the world.Other religions membership has gone up while Christianity goes down.

Who told you this? The same people who explained the Trinity to you??

Christianity is the largest religion in the world. It's the largest this year, it will be the next, the year after and the year after that and 10 years from now it will still be the largest. Its membership is increasing, not decreasing. It will continue to increase until the church age ends and the full measure of gentiles are brought in.

You are confusing Christianity in America with Christianity worldwide.

 

[Oeste]

You said " The vast majority of Christian religions work together harmoniously. Are you kidding me? Out here in Tx the Baptists nondenominationals community churches bible churchs Pentecostals and holiness churches claim that Catholics are going to hell. They are ina ifght with churches like the Catholics ANglicans United Methodists and Episcapalians and the like because of the rituals. They don't get along at all.

As I explained earlier, you are always going to have cultist groups who attack Christians, at least until Christ comes. You should not project the attitude of one group unto the whole of Christianity.

My sisters Messianic Christians church doesn't get along with anyone but them, some Pentecostals believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved a don't get along with any non Pentecostals theres along list like this. Believe me Christians do not get along harmoniously.

More talk from those folks who explained the Trinity?

Perhaps it would be better to explain your views to the Christians here:

Or here:

and let us know what they think.

 

[oldbadger]

The point is, no matter where the books are stored God assures us His words will never pass away. But I do see the passing of our man made institutions the Great Library, the Library at Constantinople, the Theological Library etc., as regrettable.

Thankyou for your extended reply.
One point. In the above paragraph you mention that 'God' assures us...... do you mean 'God' or do you 'mean 'Jesus'?

 

[Riders]

Exactly!

Thank you, Rider. It’s rare when someone with an opposing view will charge in and make your point for you so forcibly and in such a timely manner. I salute you!



Who told you this? The same people who explained the Trinity to you??

Christianity is the largest religion in the world. It's the largest this year, it will be the next, the year after and the year after that and 10 years from now it will still be the largest. Its membership is increasing, not decreasing. It will continue to increase until the church age ends and the full measure of gentiles are brought in.

You are confusing Christianity in America with Christianity worldwide.

I did do research on this last night. Christianity is the biggest religion and Muslim the second biggest your right.

However Christianity is on the decline especially in Europe. Muslims is the fastest growing religion in contrast and will catch up to Christianity by 2050 or maybe sooner considering the fact that Christianity is on the decline.

 

[Riders]

As I explained earlier, you are always going to have cultist groups who attack Christians, at least until Christ comes. You should not project the attitude of one group unto the whole of Christianity.



More talk from those folks who explained the Trinity?

Perhaps it would be better to explain your views to the Christians here:

Or here:

and let us know what they think.

Let me get this straight. Southern Baptists who attack Catholics, Catholics, Non denominational churches Bible churches, Pentecostal churches,Community churches, Holliness churches, theyre all cults?

 

[Mister Silver]

Let me get this straight. Southern Baptists who attack Catholics, Catholics, Non denominational churches Bible churches, Pentecostal churches,Community churches, Holliness churches, theyre all cults?

Religions are just cults that have gained popularity.