The Bible Is Not Corrupted

[Rival]

If the Muslim claim were true that the Bible is corrupted why would the Qur'an say these things:

(4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray

To find Muhammad mentioned in the Bible?

(7:157) Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.

(Here! Go to a corrupt book to find Muhammad's name in prophecy!)

Qur'an says they (Jews and Christians) have the scriptures in their possession:

(2:89)And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession [...]

We have NT and OT texts from the time of Muhammad and they are no different!

Qur'an admonishes the Jews for going to Muhammad instead of their Torah for judgement:

(5:43) How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)?

(Here, go to a corrupt book again to judge, don't come to Muhammad!)

And tells the Christians to judge by the Gospel:

(5:47) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

It says the Jews and Christians have no ground to stand upon if they do not use their Torah and Gospel!

(5:71) Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"

This seriously doesn't sound as if the author of the Qur'an thinks the Torah and Gospel are corrupted!

 

[uncung]

If the Muslim claim were true that the Bible is corrupted why would the Qur'an say these things:

(4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray

To find Muhammad mentioned in the Bible?

(7:157) Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.

(Here! Go to a corrupt book to find Muhammad's name in prophecy!)

Qur'an says they (Jews and Christians) have the scriptures in their possession:

(2:89)And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession [...]

We have NT and OT texts from the time of Muhammad and they are no different!

Qur'an admonishes the Jews for going to Muhammad instead of their Torah for judgement:

(5:43) How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)?

(Here, go to a corrupt book again to judge, don't come to Muhammad!)

And tells the Christians to judge by the Gospel:

(5:47) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

It says the Jews and Christians have no ground to stand upon if they do not use their Torah and Gospel!

(5:71) Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"

This seriously doesn't sound as if the author of the Qur'an thinks the Torah and Gospel are corrupted!

but where is that alleged uncorrupted Bible right now?

 

[Augustus]

The Quran clearly assumes a considerable degree of Biblical literacy in its original audience and doesn't reflect the overwhelmingly pagan environment of the tradition.

It also contains passages that are pretty accommodationist, but also plenty that are more supercessionist/hostile.

Many of the early "Muslim" community were Jews and Christians, where others followed the teachings of Muhammad that were later named Islam.

The clear separation between the 3 faiths was certainly not as clear cut as it is today. How separate they were back then is controversial and open to competing interpretations. There is also a reasonable argument to be made that the new movement was eschatological in nature.

Despite all this though, the Quran has numerous passages that are rhetorical attacks on certain Christian beliefs, and Biblical passages are rearticulated into rhetorical passages that promote the new message of Muhammad.

The attitude that the Bible and other Abrahamic texts are corrupted and have no real role in classical Islam is probably, to some extent, a later innovation by the scholars. There are examples in tafsir of them not understanding Quranic passages because they don't understand the Biblical references it contains. The intertextuality between the traditions is important, but later often downplayed in favour of an evolving Islamic theology.

So while Muhammad had a new message, his message relied on previous tradition for its credibility (to some extent). Being too critical of this tradition would thus be counterproductive. You need to work mostly within it, especially because this was viewed as history not just theology at the time.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Bible Is Not Corrupted

1. Bible (Torah/OT) is corrupted or not is a separate issue, and is to be looked into separately
2. it is to be decided on its inner evidence,
3. which is not necessarily to be linked with Quran. Right? Please
4. Bible (Torah/OT) does not claim it . Does it? Please
5. and does not provide any reasons/arguments. Does it? Please
6. It does not fulfill the purpose of a scripture. Does it? Please
7. Gathas is also corrupted. Isn't it true? Please
8. Is it (Gathas being corrupted) an evidence that Bible (Torah/OT) is not corrupted? Please
9. If Bible (Torah/OT) is not corrupted and is from G-d, why does not one believe in it? Please

Now please don't be angry with me and get to answer the above question, no compulsion however, whatsoever. Peace please
Regards

 

[roger1440]

Since there is no original Bible in existence how can anyone make the claim the Bible is or isn’t corrupted?

 

[savagewind]

Since there is no original Bible in existence how can anyone make the claim the Bible is or isn’t corrupted?

There was never an original Bible. There were original words "heard" which were passed on to other people who did not receive those words personally, they were written by other people who did not hear the original message, they were copied again and again, they were translated and copied again and again.

Are these words true? I think that they are. Romans 3:4 (Psalms 51:4) Psalms 116:11 Romans 7:21

 

[wizanda]

Since there is no original Bible in existence how can anyone make the claim the Bible is or isn’t corrupted?

We can make the claim the Bible is corrupt, based on what is within it.... Yet not from the Islamic perspective of none investigation.

The prophets all discuss the deception taking place within the Bible, with it catching out the whole world, where a city will be built upon bloodshed, where people will worship idols, drink blood, and worship a god of the dead rather than the living.

Yeshua quite clearly warned it would happen soon after him, as do the other prophets....

• Simon was called the stone (petros) to fulfill prophecy, that he would mislead everyone.
• Paul is blatantly anti-Christ's teachings.
• The gospel of John is purposefully made up.

So the corruption is exactly as prophesied, proving that God not only foretold it; yet allowed it to happen this way exactly, so everyone can learn from it, and instead everyone is too ignorant to notice, with most following the corruption as truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

We can make the claim the Bible is corrupt, based on what is within it....

And that is what the title of the thread "The Bible Is Not Corrupted" is exactly.
I agree with you and endorse your viewpoint strongly. No disrespect intended to anybody of the present times, it all was done in the ancient times for which they are not responsible.

Regards

 

[Mindmaster]

Early Christian and Judaism text were almost certainly oral, due to it being a death sentence to have the written materials exposed in ancient times.

The Quran is probably not a perfect translation - Mohammed could neither read nor write any language.

They are all corrupt?

 

[paarsurrey]

Since there is no original Bible in existence how can anyone make the claim the Bible is or isn’t corrupted?

That proves the point raised by friend wizanda #7.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Early Christian and Judaism text were almost certainly oral, due to it being a death sentence to have the written materials exposed in ancient times.
The Quran is probably not a perfect translation - Mohammed could neither read nor write any language.
They are all corrupt?

The topic is "The Bible Is Not Corrupted" so please remain focus on it as you have done in what I have colored in magenta, the rest may be discussed in a separate thread.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The prophets all discuss the deception taking place within the Bible

Please quote from the Bible Prophets to refresh the memory of friends here. You are welcome to do it. Please
Regards

 

[savagewind]

so everyone can learn from it, and instead everyone is too ignorant to notice, with most following the corruption as truth.

Matthew 24:39

 

[savagewind]

Please quote from the Bible Prophets to refresh the memory of friends here. You are welcome to do it. Please
Regards

1 John 4:1-6 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them
Jeremiah 23:26 - How long shall [this] be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, [they are] prophets of the deceit of their own heart
Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 2:2 - thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars
Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-False-Prophets/

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

scoffers: http://biblehub.com/greek/1702.htm "tricked"

Word Origin
from en and paizó
Definition
to mock at
NASB Translation
mock (2), mocked (5), mocking (4), ridicule (1), tricked (1).

 

[wizanda]

Please quote from the Bible Prophets to refresh the memory of friends here.

The thread is on if Muslims are wrong from Islamic literature....

It is because someone said we can't make the claim the Bible is corrupted; that then made that statement showing where it is from evidence.

You see if it wasn't for Islam making a mess of it, then Christians and Jews might've been more willing to hear the case.

Matthew 24:39

Matthew 24:44-46

John & peter & Romans (Paul)

See this is what meaning about being ignorant; just informed you they're fake prophets....Yet you post them directly after.

 

[paarsurrey]

1 John 4:1-6 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them
Jeremiah 23:26 - How long shall [this] be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, [they are] prophets of the deceit of their own heart
Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 2:2 - thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars
Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-False-Prophets/

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

scoffers: http://biblehub.com/greek/1702.htm "tricked"

Please quote from Jesus, instead of from others.
Regards

 

[savagewind]

Please quote from Jesus, instead of from others.
Regards

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Like so?

 

[idav]

If the Muslim claim were true that the Bible is corrupted why would the Qur'an say these things:

(4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray

To find Muhammad mentioned in the Bible?

(7:157) Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.

(Here! Go to a corrupt book to find Muhammad's name in prophecy!)

Qur'an says they (Jews and Christians) have the scriptures in their possession:

(2:89)And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession [...]

We have NT and OT texts from the time of Muhammad and they are no different!

Qur'an admonishes the Jews for going to Muhammad instead of their Torah for judgement:

(5:43) How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)?

(Here, go to a corrupt book again to judge, don't come to Muhammad!)

And tells the Christians to judge by the Gospel:

(5:47) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

It says the Jews and Christians have no ground to stand upon if they do not use their Torah and Gospel!

(5:71) Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"

This seriously doesn't sound as if the author of the Qur'an thinks the Torah and Gospel are corrupted!

This is interesting Rival. I sometimes wonder where Muslims get the idea of Jesus being some sort of prophet/messiah if not from the Gospels. I am not as versed in the Quran as I am the bible so I appreciate you sharing. What i do know is the quran has the same bible stories as the Torah so it is a very interesting claim that the foundation that Muslims stem from is ultimately corrupted and misleading.

It may have something to do with the fact that in the stories in the quran the prophets don't ever sin as they do in the same stories as portrayed in the Old Testament. As if the Quran managed to somehow tell the stories better even if they were supposed to be the same. I find that aspect rather convenient regarding their claim, especially for a messenger that couldn't possibly have read the Old Testament renditions since Muhammad was allegedly illiterate and couldn't write.

 

[paarsurrey]

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Like so?

Sorry, these quotes of Jesus concern Paul and his associates, so the inner evidence of NT Gospels proves as per prophecy of Jesus "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" that the fake books written in Jesus names by the person called "apostles" or "epistles" are corruption in the name of Jesus:

For example, 1 Peter mentions that it was Peter’s letter written down by Silvanus, or Silas (1 Peter 5:12). Timothy was involved in the writing and delivery of several of the apostle Paul’s letters (Colossians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; Philemon 1:1), although Paul signed each one to verify that he was the author (Galatians 6:1).

Jesus never wrote anything for the Christianity , he never authorized any person to write on his behalf, he established no new religion named Christianity. He was a Jew and sent for the Jews only.
All this stuff called NT Bible/Gospels was written in Jesus' absence while he migrated to India and was alive there.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

#19
All this stuff called NT Bible/Gospels was written in Jesus' absence while he migrated to India and was alive there.
So there is no doubt that the Word Revealed on Jesus has been massively corrupted and the present Christianity is an invention of Paul/church and their associates and its teaching do not belong to that of Jesus. Please

Regards