The bible vs. Christ!

[TashaN]

Do you trust the bible *as a whole* more or you prefer to follow the feelings and trust you have in Jesus, then to be a Christian in your own way which you think Jesus would love you to be, instead of depending just in the bible?

Does my question make any sense?

 

[*Paul*]

It is an impossible question to answer. We do not seperate these things, we know Jesus by His Word, His Spirit lives in us because we believe His word, we live because He lives, He lives in us and works through us, His word is our food and is our light so that we don't stumble into dark places.

 

[TashaN]

Based on your post, I think you depend more in the work of Christ in you more than the scripture, in case they appeared to be contradicted, am i right into assuming that?

By the way, the poll shows that most of people depend in themselves more than the other choices.

 

[Scott1]

You forgot the more than one billion of us Christians who take another approach:

I trust equally Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture which make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

 

[*Paul*]

Based on your post, I think you depend more in the work of Christ in you more than the scripture, in case they appeared to be contradicted, am i right into assuming that?

By the way, the poll shows that most of people depend in themselves more than the other choices.

And how would I know who Christ was without the scriptures? How could I know that i was following Him and doing what is pleasing to Him? All I would have to go by would be my fuzzy feelings which are subject to change depending on the day I am having.
I simply cannot seperate the two, you can know the Word without knowing Jesus and many do, you can memorise the whole of scripture and still not know Jesus but without knowing the gospel then you cannot know Him, without the prophets and doctrines of the apostles you cannot be sure of the basis of the gospel and truthfulness of it. Without the scriptures you will be grasping at the wind to try to know what is pleasing to God and so on.
So I cannot choose.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is an impossible question to answer. We do not seperate these things, we know Jesus by His Word, His Spirit lives in us because we believe His word, we live because He lives, He lives in us and works through us, His word is our food and is our light so that we don't stumble into dark places.

Do you think that you are speaking for all Christians? Only a fraction of Protestants can't tell the difference between the Bible and Jesus. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, as well as other orthodox (Chinese and Coptic) Christians use Tradition and Scripture together.

For me, it is Christ, and that Christ is the Christ of Church tradition.

 

[*Paul*]

Do you think that you are speaking for all Christians?

Yes but we differ on who is a Christian no doubt, for me it is one who has been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, as revealed in scripture alone, to the glory of God alone. You are saved no other way in my mind so I speaking for all Christians :yes: from my perspective. I have made clear that I do know the difference between Jesus and scripture but I cannot seperate the essentiality of either,

Only a fraction of Protestants can't tell the difference between the Bible and Jesus. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, as well as other orthodox (Chinese and Coptic) Christians use Tradition and Scripture together.

Bully for them but they also believe in a faith + works salvation.

For me, it is Christ, and that Christ is the Christ of Church tradition.

That explains a lot.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It is revealing in this thread why so many do not understand WHY I believe what I do...

I Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

While others rely on scripture, tradition or an earthly authority, I rely on the Spirit as God intended us to. Unfortunately, the Spirit is not one of the choices in the poll!

 

[*Paul*]

It is revealing in this thread why so many do not understand WHY I believe what I do...

I Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.NIV

While others rely on scripture, tradition or an earthly authority, I rely on the Spirit as God intended us to. Unfortunately, the Spirit is not one of the choices in the poll!

And yet you appeal to scripture to make your point. I just think it is impossible to seperate them all, I need the Spirit to understand the scriptures and to guide me, I need the scriptures to show me who God is and how I can know Him and please Him and to grow in my faith, and I need Jesus for everything. Without the Spirit the bible is just empty words.

 

[*Paul*]

I would just like to add that the gospel which Paul preached and passed on, the same gospel that I believe now, which is the power of God unto salvation is "according to the scriptures"


1st Corinthians 15:1-6 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 

[Scuba Pete]

And yet you appeal to scripture to make your point. I just think it is impossible to seperate them all, I need the Spirit to understand the scriptures and to guide me, I need the scriptures to show me who God is and how I can know Him and please Him and to grow in my faith, and I need Jesus for everything. Without the Spirit the bible is just empty words.

As long as you realize that scripture never claims to be infallible. You HAVE to have the Spirit in order to understand it.

 

[*Paul*]

As long as you realize that scripture never claims to be infallible. You HAVE to have the Spirit in order to understand it.

Any one can understand the gospel but the deep things of God are spiritually discerned. The reason I view scripture as infallible is because it was God breathed, if it came from God then I wouldn't dare to think He made mistakes.

 

[sojourner]

The poll is useless for the majority of Christianity. Most Christians are not Calvinist.

 

[sojourner]

Do you trust the bible *as a whole* more or you prefer to follow the feelings and trust you have in Jesus, then to be a Christian in your own way which you think Jesus would love you to be, instead of depending just in the bible?

Does my question make any sense?

I've heard of Niebuhr's idea of "Christ vs. Culture," but never "Christ vs. Bible"...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Any one can understand the gospel but the deep things of God are spiritually discerned. The reason I view scripture as infallible is because it was God breathed, if it came from God then I wouldn't dare to think He made mistakes.

God inspires (breathes) a LOT of things. God mad man in his image, and yet we are FAR from perfect. Please show me ANYWHERE in scriptures where it claims to be infallible.

 

[*Paul*]

God inspires (breathes) a LOT of things. God mad man in his image, and yet we are FAR from perfect. Please show me ANYWHERE in scriptures where it claims to be infallible.

Assuming you believe scripture is the word of God as I do and that you believe scripture contains error:


Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

St. John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

St. John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Concerning what you said about God creating imperfection:

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 19:7-8 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Maybe God doesn't choose the Words that would satisfy you but I am clueless as to where you would get any other idea than that God's Word is perfect and pure and does not fail.

 

[sojourner]

Assuming you believe scripture is the word of God as I do and that you believe scripture contains error:


Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

St. John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

St. John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Concerning what you said about God creating imperfection:

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 19:7-8 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Maybe God doesn't choose the Words that would satisfy you but I am clueless as to where you would get any other idea than that God's Word is perfect and pure and does not fail.

Perhaps we don't understand "as you do" that the Bible is the Word of God. Perhaps we understand it differently.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Assuming you believe scripture is the word of God as I do and that you believe scripture contains error:

Where do they define scripture as the "Word of God"? Sure, some of God's words are in the scriptures, but I don't see this as a scriptural definition of the scriptures. Now HERE is a scriptural definition of the Word of God...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. NIV

Jesus is the WORD, and as much as the scriptures report what HE SAID, it is sticking to the WORD of God.

 

[*Paul*]

2nd Timothy 3:15-16 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If all scripture is given by inspiration of God and as the greek implies was breathed out by Him like the wind, scripture being in the form of words then it is safe to call it the words of God and as a collective whole the word of God.

Logos is not only used in refernce to Jesus but is even translated as thing 8 times and saying 50 times and as word in many different contexts.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If all scripture is given by inspiration of God and as the greek implies was breathed out by Him like the wind, scripture being in the form of words then it is safe to call it the words of God and as a collective whole the word of God.

You are using HUGE leaps of illogic here. Inspiration means that you are MOVED to do something. God inspires scripture, he doesn't move the pen. Why else are the Gospels so different?

Logos is not only used in refernce to Jesus but is even translated as thing 8 times and saying 50 times and as word in many different contexts.

And what are those "other" things?