The Big Bang and Evolution

[Valjean]

Reggie Miller said: ↑
I was walking through the desert in Arizona and I found a watch. I thought to myself, "Gee, it's amazing how this watch just randomly happened!
DNA, RNA and the simplest life forms are far more complex than a watch. Just telling me it happened without being specific is similar to expecting people to believe the watch just randomly assembled itself.

First, nucleic acids aren't that complicated, second, these aren't comparable events.
Evolution works by reproducing with variation. Natural selection then 'selects' from the offspring.
Watches don't reproduce, and there's no variation to select from.

And I think we can all agree that is absurd. At least I hope so.

You have no idea how evolution works.

Okay, I'll try to go your way to prove that either way, you don't know what you are talking about. Go right ahead and
give me your answer of HOW the Universe was caused to exist. Not the "Who" or the "what" but the "mechanism" now! We are all ears! Do not disappoint us!

I don't know how the Universe was created, but, absent that knowledge, I don't feel any need to make up an invisible personage to magically poof it into existence and pretend that's an "explanation."
I'm fine with "I don't know."

God is capable of setting element-based evolution in motion, as well as the direct creation described in the renewal of earth after it had become waste and ruin in Genesis.

What is "element based evolution?" Do you have any evidence God is capable of direct creation (I'm assuming this means magic poofing)? For that matter, do you have any evidence for this God?

It is believed evolution is contrary to God because it suggests that life existed before the events described in Genesis were to have taken place -and because it suggests that life developed rather than being directly created -and did not require a creator.

It is believed by whom, and how does evolution suggest pre-Genesis life? The ToE doesn't make any reference to Genesis.

Why would the suggestion that life developed by natural means be problematic? It seems to me that creation by magic poofing is the assertion in need of support.

A God capable of direct creation would certainly also be capable of indirect creation.

What's indirect creation?

Still, though the formation of the universe -and so the elements which are the basis for the evolution of physical life forms -actually do indicate forethought and design (feel free to disagree),

How do they indicate this?

Element-based evolution could be described as an autonomous adaptation and design program. Element-based evolution -overall -is an intelligent designer, but one which is not aware of itself.

Still don't understand what this 'element -based evolution is.

 

[omega2xx]

First provide evidence for your god.

You made the first statement. Prove yours and I will prove mine.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't know how the Universe was created, but, absent that knowledge, I don't feel any need to make up an invisible personage to magically poof it into existence and pretend that's an "explanation." I'm fine with "I don't know." What is "element based evolution?" Do you have any evidence God is capable of direct creation (I'm assuming this means magic poofing)? For that matter, do you have any evidence for this God?

Oh! Now, you don't know how the Universe was created! You caused me, analogically to go through the pangs of giving birth so to speak, to come down to the atheistic bottom line, "I don't know." If you don't know, why do you blare out aloud against the view of your opponent when you can't prove your claim? When someone does not know, he ought either to keep his mouth shut or to confess like a Christian that he believes by faith. Regarding your question if HaShem is capable of direct creation, HaShem is capable of every thing but one, the think you wish He did or should have done. He doesn't
work that way to prove Himself.

There you go again, and now asking me if I have any evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. You ask for what you don't want to hear because you cannot accept any thing which is against your atheistic preconceived notions. But, any way, you are an evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. Why! Because, since you could not have caused yourself to exist, someone that preceded you had to cause you to exist. Am I wrong on any thing so far? I didn't think so. So, who caused yourself to exist? Your parents; and your parents, who caused them to exist? Their parents; and their parents? I hope you must have found out by now what I am talking about. The concept of genetic Causality that is. And the first couple of parents? Who could have caused them to exist? Do you have any thing in mind besides the Primal Cause? I don't think so. If you can't believe in this cycle of generic causality, you have silently confessed that you are beyond repair. So, why wasting your time with questions you cannot respond? Not because the questions are too hard to answer but because you are too trapped by your atheistic preconceived notions. Of that high horse, my friend, you are too proud to come down. Pity!

 

[ArtieE]

The concept of genetic Causality that is. And the first couple of parents? Who could have caused them to exist? Do you have any thing in mind besides the Primal Cause?

If the Primal Cause caused the first couple of parents to exist why would this Primal Cause exist in the first place? For no reason?

 

[Ben Avraham]

If the Primal Cause caused the first couple of parents to exist why would this Primal Cause exist in the first place? For no reason?

He would not be the Primal Cause if He did not always exist or was caused to exist by any thing else that preceded It.

 

[ArtieE]

He would not be the Primal Cause if He did not always exist or was caused to exist by any thing else that preceded It.

And why would this Primal Cause exist in the first place? And don't say "I don't know" as that would be the theistic bottom line, wouldn't it?

 

[Ben Avraham]

And why would this Primal Cause exist in the first place? And don't say "I don't know" as that would be the theistic bottom line, wouldn't it?

Because, if He did not exist, we would not be here now verbal juggling with each other.

 

[ArtieE]

Because, if He did not exist, we would not be here now verbal juggling with each other.

But I'm not asking for evidence of his existence. I'm asking why he would exist in the first place.

 

[Sonofason]

The big bang of what? What indeed was the big bang, some kind of explosion that from which came out the Universe? What was it that exploded, matter? If so, did matter exist even before the big bang? This idea does not seem to make sense to me! Then, there is evolution; evolution of what, of the Universe? If it is, can I call that, expansion instead? If evolution is of man in particular, could I call that development, physical and intellectual? If NO is the answer to all my questions, do you have what it takes to help me in my lack of understanding?

God spoke. He said, "let there be light". Hence, the universe exists.
Indeed you can say the universe expands. You can even say that everything, all of existence is expanding. The earth is expanding as well. No continents drifting about as most scientists suggest, just a gradual expansion of the universe and everything in it as well.

 

[Sonofason]

But I'm not asking for evidence of his existence. I'm asking why he would exist in the first place.

Why wouldn't he exist in the first place?

 

[ArtieE]

Why wouldn't he exist in the first place?

It is the people who claim he exists that owe us an explanation for why he would exist in the first place.

 

[Sonofason]

So, my 9 year old and I have been having a lot of discussions lately about the nature of thought. He's really interested in why people believe the things that they believe, as he's beginning to piece together the fact that not everyone in the world sees the world like he does... It's cool to be a part of. One of the biggest conclusions that he's drawn while we talk about this is that people supplant ignorance for knowledge whenever they can, usually based on what "feels" good to them. It's easier, he's posited, to feel good about something than it is to study and to test yourself. He's even seen himself fall prey to it while doing homework for example. (He hates fractions, so instead of grinding them out he tries to "feel" his way to an answer.)

I say all of that because I witness countless threads get created, and opinions shared, on Religious Forums based on ignorance and emotion - and very little else...



The Big Bang was the beginning of our Universe. Before the Big Bang there was no Universe - just the matter that could (or could not) become it.

There is no viable evidence to suggest that matter existed before the universe. It may very well be that matter was spoken into existence when God spoke it into existence.

In the way that you're thinking of it, of course something existed before... But the word "before" is loaded in this sense, because before the Big Bang (which is the moment that our Universe came to be) there was no such thing as time. You (and your mind) are a product of this Universe and therefore are eternally bound to linear ideas of time. But that's not at all how space and time work. So, technically, your question is flawed - and that's why it doesn't make sense.

How is it that you have come to the belief that time cannot exist without our universe existing?

And endless and infinite cycle of Universes does nothing to dispel the current state of our Universe. Carbon dating is a science that is not based on possible other-Universe scenarios. It's based on observed decay in this world, based on the physics of this Universe. The same scientific method that taught us that germs cause illness also taught us the decay rates of radioactive isotopes.

What you're essentially arguing is that because gravity is different on other planets, we can't know anything about gravity on Earth... That's a nonsense position. We can only talk about where we are - not what we imagine an alternate reality to be.

Since the universe is in a constant state of change, that is that the universe is expanding and therefore decreasing in density, it seems absurd to me to suggest that something like the decay rate of carbon-14 ought to remain constant. We may know the decay rate of carbon-14 today, but we have no idea what it was even 100 years ago. Assuming that the decay rate of carbon-14 has remained constant over time is a grave mistake in science.

 

[Sonofason]

It is the people who claim he exists that owe us an explanation for why he would exist in the first place.

And I believe it is the people who claim that he does not exist that owe us an explanation for why he doesn't.

 

[Sonofason]

Why would biologists and others who have invested their reputations and entire careers supporting a theory increasingly under scientific attack use propaganda tactics to defend their theory? Why would they seek to marginalize, misrepresent, and seek to harm those scientists and others who reject their theory based on evidence, and publish that evidence?

Because they believe the garbage they read, even if only for the sake of their reputations and careers?

 

[ArtieE]

And I believe it is the people who claim that he does not exist that owe us an explanation for why he doesn't.

Like all the Christians owe us a scientific explanation why they believe all the gods don't exist except one? I can go with that.

 

[Sonofason]

Like all the Christians owe us a scientific explanation why they believe all the gods don't exist except one? I can go with that.

I have never suggested that all the "gods" don't exist. I'm suspect they did. The Creator is not a god. The Creator is God.

 

[ArtieE]

I have never suggested that all the "gods" don't exist. I'm quite sure they did. The Creator is not a god. The Creator is God.

Come to think of it it actually makes sense. Strong atheists believe all gods don't exist. Theists believe all gods don't exist except for one or a few. They should pool their resources and as you say give us an explanation for why all these gods don't exist instead of atheists just asking the theists for proof that their particular gods exist.

 

[Sonofason]

Come to think of it it actually makes sense. Strong atheists believe all gods don't exist. Theists believe all gods don't exist except for one or a few. They should pool their resources and as you say give us an explanation for why all these gods don't exist instead of atheists just asking the theists for proof that their particular gods exist.

Genesis 6 tells us that giants were on the earth in the days before and after the Great Flood, and that these "sons of God" (bene ha ’elohim) sired children with women. The “sons of God” are clearly viewed as angelic or heavenly beings in the Old Testament.

"Greek mythology also speaks of mighty men of old. The Olympian gods frequently had affairs with women. The resultant progeny of these unions were demigods like Hercules and Perseus. Demigods were endowed with great strength and abilities, and they were often considered to be giants."

http://creationtoday.org/giant-speculations-the-bible-and-greek-mythology/

What is "a god" anyway?
a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as (if) having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

They may have been gods, but none of them is God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

God spoke. He said, "let there be light". Hence, the universe exists. Indeed you can say the universe expands. You can even say that everything, all of existence is expanding. The earth is expanding as well. No continents drifting about as most scientists suggest, just a gradual expansion of the universe and everything in it as well.

In that case, we are of the same mind, for I agree with you. HaShem be with you then. And don't forget to take your message above to the atheists. They need to understand that the light that caused the Universe to exist was indeed proclaimed by the Creator aka the Primal Cause. Baruch HaShem!

 

[Ben Avraham]

But I'm not asking for evidence of his existence. I'm asking why he would exist in the first place.

He simply has always existed from eternity to eternity. Now, expand your question about Him and we will have more to talk about Him.