The Big Bang Theory is dead.

[vijeno]

Sure.
if you believe the gospel of Christ then you will be saved.

"saved"? Gibberish. A word without meaning, except in your phantasy novel.

Then you can preach the gospel of Christ to many including those that you know and love.

Ah. So it's an ego thing. It makes you feel better to look down on others and preach down to them because they need saving while you are already saved. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

"saved"? Gibberish. A word without meaning, except in your phantasy novel.



Ah. So it's an ego thing. It makes you feel better to look down on others and preach down to them because they need saving while you are already saved. Thanks for clarifying.

I do it because I am saved.

 

[vijeno]

I do it because I am saved.

Lol. You preach to people who are not saved and hence cannot understand your lunacy, in your own twisted logic. So the preaching is completely useless.

Challenge: Stop doing it. Just for a week. See if you feel better then. Come back and tell us your experience.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What does "saved" mean to you?

That's a good question. I know it's supposed to mean forgiveness from God for the unforgivable offenses I've committed against Him...

...but it just comes across as seeking to placate someone who has the ability (and apparently the desire) to harm me if I don't.

Hard pass.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sure.
if you believe the gospel of Christ then you will be saved.
Then you can preach the gospel of Christ to many including those that you know and love.

But since the Gospel of Christ is contained within the word of God (which I can't understand because I'm not saved), I'd need to first hear it (and believe it) preached from someone who IS saved - someone such as yourself.

Then, once I'm in the "Saved" county club, I can initiate others...

Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I do it because I am saved.

What if you didn't?

 

[SavedByTheLord]

What if you didn't?

Didn’t do what?

 

[Sargonski]

I do it because I am saved.

Lol. You preach to people who are not saved and hence cannot understand your lunacy, in your own twisted logic. So the preaching is completely useless.

Challenge: Stop doing it. Just for a week. See if you feel better then. Come back and tell us your experience.

can't argue with that

What if you didn't?

Didn’t do what?

Didn't go around claiming salvation on the basis of Idol Martin .. selling that "Free Pass" ideology .. all we need do is fall to our knees and cry "Jesus .. Jesus" - like Tim Tebow after scoring a touchdown .. forgetting that Jesus had his money on the other team .. was Sataniel who helped Timmy in the art of black Magic .. for as we read in Scripture -- to the oracles do not pray .. and think you are so special that Jesus is going to intervene personally ..

but hear the Truth from Lord Jesus .. for proper pronunciation purposes "Hey-Zeus" .. and a dose of the Trinity .. coupled with Jah .. Jah Rasta and Yahu of the Shasu on top of yonder mountain. . he tell you Matt 7:21 "Not all who cry Lord Lord gon make it into the Kingdom mon" .. can run around professing your faith all you like .. not going to help.. cause the Man Say " Only the one that does the Will of the Father who art in Heaven" Hallowed be thy name .. Ahmen Yah Jah Jahu

So .. Saved by Lord Martin are we.. Is this what you are claiming is "The Will of the Father" - Just cry out Lord Lord .. "I have faith - I have Faith" - and you get a free pass through Judgement... cause Lord Martin told us so.. not even bothering to tell us what it is that we have faith in. .. Oh .. the resurrection .. right .. faith that the free pass will take us directly to heaven .. do not pass through the cleansing fire .. skip right over judgement and through the pearly gates.

I don't think "Free Pass" is what Jesus is claiming is "The Will of the Father" .. and don't think Jesus was selling salvation by Lord Martin. Jesus tells us what the Will of the FAther is .. as that is what the Sermon he is Preaching is about ... the most famous Sermon on the mount .. the theme of which is how to get into the Kingdom .. by doing the Will of the Father .. and it sure as heck is not that "Free Pass" ideology.

and last .. "Hallowed be thy Name" .. "Thy Will Be Done" .. If you don't know the Name of The Father .. the Supreme One on high .. how on earth will one know what The Will of this God is ? So what is the "Hallowed Name" of this God who's Will we are supposed to do.. Who is the God of Jesus .. the one he continuously refers to .. The God who , at his baptism implanted the divine spark .. and adopted Jesus saying "You are my Son" Upon which Jesus undergoes the ritual after which he becomes the annointed one of God .. A Priest forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek.

What is the name of the God the Priests of the Order of Melchi-Zedek are worshiping ? The God of Melchi-Zedek and Abraham .. and the Big Bang !

 

[YoursTrue]

That's a good question. I know it's supposed to mean forgiveness from God for the unforgivable offenses I've committed against Him...

...but it just comes across as seeking to placate someone who has the ability (and apparently the desire) to harm me if I don't.

Hard pass.

Thank you for your honest and respectful reply, I appreciate that. So -- First I'd like to start by saying: it does not mean one is 'saved' from burning forever in conscious torment in hell(fire). That's what it does NOT mean. And from my study of the Bible I am sure that is the correct way of looking at it. (or not seeing it)
So now I'll give the dictionary definition, perhaps moreso later.

****SALVATION
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.

1. "they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
   Similar:lifeline
   preservation
2. conservation
3. means of escape
   .THEOLOGY
   deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
   Oxford Languages

 

[TLK Valentine]

Didn’t do what?

Didn't do it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Thank you for your honest and respectful reply, I appreciate that. So -- First I'd like to start by saying: it does not mean one is 'saved' from burning forever in conscious torment in hell(fire). That's what it does NOT mean. And from my study of the Bible I am sure that is the correct way of looking at it. (or not seeing it)
So now I'll give the dictionary definition, perhaps moreso later.

****SALVATION
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.

1. "they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
   Similar:lifeline
   preservation
2. conservation
3. means of escape
   .THEOLOGY
   deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
   Oxford Languages

Thank you, but I am quite familiar with the dictionary - although its relevance in this context is questionable at best.

"Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss" is pretty much a bust - when troubles come, the saved get hit just as badly as the unsaved.

... which is exactly as its meant to be: Matthew 5:45 - the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, and all that.

"Deliverance from sin and its consequences" fall right in line with what I was saying: "Sin" is disobedience to God, and "its consequences" tend to come from Him.
As I'm on the fence concerning the existence of a supreme being, I'm not about to bend over backwards to figure out the best way to obey it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you, but I am quite familiar with the dictionary - although its relevance in this context is questionable at best.

"Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss" is pretty much a bust - when troubles come, the saved get hit just as badly as the unsaved.

... which is exactly as its meant to be: Matthew 5:45 - the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, and all that.

"Deliverance from sin and its consequences" fall right in line with what I was saying: "Sin" is disobedience to God, and "its consequences" tend to come from Him.
As I'm on the fence concerning the existence of a supreme being, I'm not about to bend over backwards to figure out the best way to obey it.

Hi. I wanted first to go over a dictionary definition of salvation. So it speaks of being taken away from a source of danger. Let's say in a physical sense, such as a warning for a heavy storm coming and escaping. But now we move on to the spiritual.
I do believe there is a difference between true Christians and Christians in name only. God provides deliverance for all true Christians by means of faith and following his Son. In general, it is deliverance from the present wicked system of things as well as salvation from bondage to sin and death. I'm learning, too, so I'm sharing with you what I know. I was not always a Christian or a believer, and finally I prayed to God, even in my prayer I said, "IF YOU'RE THERE..." and I believe firmly He answered that prayer.
I take it slow and if you have any questions, please ask, I can't promise I can answer them all but I'll share with you what I do know from the Bible as I presently understand it.
I believe it is essential for a Christian to follow Jesus. Notice, please, verses 4-6 of 1 John chapter 2.
1 John 2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Hi. I wanted first to go over a dictionary definition of salvation. So it speaks of being taken away from a source of danger. Let's say in a physical sense, such as a warning for a heavy storm coming and escaping. But now we move on to the spiritual.

Because we're in agreement that in a physical sense, it's not relevant to our discussion.
Of course, it's unfortunate that this is not universally understood - from faith healers to the prosperity gospel, too many people conflate spiritual with physical salvation.
But yes, let's move on.

I do believe there is a difference between true Christians and Christians in name only. God provides deliverance for all true Christians by means of faith and following his Son.

As I've said in the past, it's the difference between seeing Jesus as a role model or as a mascot.

In general, it is deliverance from the present wicked system of things as well as salvation from bondage to sin and death.

Now here's where you're getting vague - what is "the present wicked system of things"?
Who designed it?
Who made it wicked? (or was it wicked from the get-go?)
Why is being "delivered" from it the only option? Why can't we fix it instead?

Bondage to "sin" brings us right back to my point,

and salvation from death? Bad news, friend - the saved are every bit as mortal as the unsaved. Everybody dies.

Now, you, of course, have faith in spiritual immortality; that your soul will live on forever, while the souls of the unsaved... won't.

But that's a belief, nothing more - and personally, I'm not ready to buy a "pig in a poke."

I'm learning, too, so I'm sharing with you what I know. I was not always a Christian or a believer, and finally I prayed to God, even in my prayer I said, "IF YOU'RE THERE..." and I believe firmly He answered that prayer.
I take it slow and if you have any questions, please ask, I can't promise I can answer them all but I'll share with you what I do know from the Bible as I presently understand it.

I appreciate the offer - not to brag, but I've read the Bible a few times myself, and while I find it an interesting work of literature, I don't see the hand of God in it any more than in the works of Shakespeare or Twain...

I believe it is essential for a Christian to follow Jesus. Notice, please, verses 4-6 of 1 John chapter 2.
1 John 2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

He is the "atoning sacrifice" he takes the punishment meant for us...
Personally, I find the very idea of the innocent being punished in the place of the guilty to be a sorry mockery of "justice."
Atonement theology has got to go, IMO... but that's another matter.

 

[YoursTrue]

Because we're in agreement that in a physical sense, it's not relevant to our discussion.
Of course, it's unfortunate that this is not universally understood - from faith healers to the prosperity gospel, too many people conflate spiritual with physical salvation.
But yes, let's move on.




As I've said in the past, it's the difference between seeing Jesus as a role model or as a mascot.




Now here's where you're getting vague - what is "the present wicked system of things"?
Who designed it?
Who made it wicked? (or was it wicked from the get-go?)
Why is being "delivered" from it the only option? Why can't we fix it instead?

Bondage to "sin" brings us right back to my point,

and salvation from death? Bad news, friend - the saved are every bit as mortal as the unsaved. Everybody dies.

Now, you, of course, have faith in spiritual immortality; that your soul will live on forever, while the souls of the unsaved... won't.

But that's a belief, nothing more - and personally, I'm not ready to buy a "pig in a poke."



I appreciate the offer - not to brag, but I've read the Bible a few times myself, and while I find it an interesting work of literature, I don't see the hand of God in it any more than in the works of Shakespeare or Twain...




He is the "atoning sacrifice" he takes the punishment meant for us...
Personally, I find the very idea of the innocent being punished in the place of the guilty to be a sorry mockery of "justice."
Atonement theology has got to go, IMO... but that's another matter.

I can't go over everything all at once, so I'm going to just say that the salvation is both physical in a sense and of course, spiritual. Take Revelation 7:14 for a moment. It says, "Said I to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me “These are the ones who come from the great distress, and who washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." So notice, please, that the prophecy speaks of those that washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. We know, of course, this uses symbolic language, but of what? Let me start by quoting the following at 1 Corinthians 6:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." So this outlines some of the sins God declares would prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.
So then the question might be, what IS the kingdom of God? After all, Jesus offered the prayer his disciples should pray, sometimes known as the Lord's Prayer -- and in it it says, "Let your kingdom come.."
So I'm going to pose to you some points -- one is what is that kingdom? What will it do for mankind?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I can't go over everything all at once, so I'm going to just say that the salvation is both physical in a sense and of course, spiritual. Take Revelation 7:14 for a moment. It says, "Said I to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me “These are the ones who come from the great distress, and who washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." So notice, please, that the prophecy speaks of those that washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. We know, of course, this uses symbolic language, but of what? Let me start by quoting the following at 1 Corinthians 6:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." So this outlines some of the sins God declares would prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

I think you're reading a bit too much into this one - "washing away" sins was a prevailing theme throughout the NT, starting with John the Baptist.
Jesus' ministry begins with his own baptism by John - although this isn't shared by all the accounts; John's Gospel had Jesus encounter the Baptist, but not actually be baptized by him - there's a reason for that.

As for 1 Corinthians, Paul was laying down the law for the Church in Corinth, and it's a matter of faith to determine whether he's speaking with God's authority or his own. In any event, I hope we can agree that he was just giving examples, not writing a definitive list. After all, we don't know the whole story about what specific issues the Corinthian Church was dealing with that needed his intervention.

So then the question might be, what IS the kingdom of God? After all, Jesus offered the prayer his disciples should pray, sometimes known as the Lord's Prayer -- and in it it says, "Let your kingdom come.."
So I'm going to pose to you some points -- one is what is that kingdom? What will it do for mankind?

Another interesting question! Let's unpack it:
Most Christians think of the "Kingdom of Heaven" as being in Heaven, but that doesn't make any sense if it's going to be coming here someday, now does it?

In John 18:36, Jesus tells Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world."
But the original Greek, "ouk estin ek tou kosmou," is better translated as "not part of this system," as in a system of government.

Add to that Jesus' words in Luke 6:24-26:
“But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, For you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Put it together and Jesus is talking a revolution here on Earth - whether led by men or angels is irrelevant - where the poor and downtrodden would find themselves in charge, and the rich and powerful will get the shaft.

That obviously wasn't going to sit well with the priestly class, who were rich and powerful themselves, and relied on the even richer and more powerful Roman occupiers for their wealth and status... not to mention their very lives.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think you're reading a bit too much into this one - "washing away" sins was a prevailing theme throughout the NT, starting with John the Baptist.
Jesus' ministry begins with his own baptism by John - although this isn't shared by all the accounts; John's Gospel had Jesus encounter the Baptist, but not actually be baptized by him - there's a reason for that.

As for 1 Corinthians, Paul was laying down the law for the Church in Corinth, and it's a matter of faith to determine whether he's speaking with God's authority or his own. In any event, I hope we can agree that he was just giving examples, not writing a definitive list. After all, we don't know the whole story about what specific issues the Corinthian Church was dealing with that needed his intervention.



Another interesting question! Let's unpack it:
Most Christians think of the "Kingdom of Heaven" as being in Heaven, but that doesn't make any sense if it's going to be coming here someday, now does it?

In John 18:36, Jesus tells Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world."
But the original Greek, "ouk estin ek tou kosmou," is better translated as "not part of this system," as in a system of government.

Add to that Jesus' words in Luke 6:24-26:
“But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, For you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Put it together and Jesus is talking a revolution here on Earth - whether led by men or angels is irrelevant - where the poor and downtrodden would find themselves in charge, and the rich and powerful will get the shaft.

That obviously wasn't going to sit well with the priestly class, who were rich and powerful themselves, and relied on the even richer and more powerful Roman occupiers for their wealth and status... not to mention their very lives.

Yes, it makes sense when Jesus prayed to his Father, he said, "Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Here's what it means to me right now -- when Jesus offered the prayer, God's will was not being done on the earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

He is the "atoning sacrifice" he takes the punishment meant for us...
Personally, I find the very idea of the innocent being punished in the place of the guilty to be a sorry mockery of "justice."
Atonement theology has got to go, IMO... but that's another matter.

Not sure I understand that. Let's say a person does not believe or understand the Bible. Would he suffer anyway, regardless of belief?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, it makes sense when Jesus prayed to his Father, he said, "Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Here's what it means to me right now -- when Jesus offered the prayer, God's will was not being done on the earth.

And whose fault was that? Who did Jesus firmly cast the blame on?
The priestly class - the ones who were supposed to be doing God's will, but had sold out instead.

When Jesus cleanses the Temple, and says "My Temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves," (Matthew 21:13), he's not just talking to the moneychangers, but also to the priests - after all, the moneychanges are only there because the priests allow them to be, and priests allowed them because they got a cut of the profits.

Another example: when Jesus says "Render under Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's," (Mark 12:17), this is another mistranslation - the Greek word "apodidomi" is being translated here as "render," but it's better translated as return. Properly translated, Jesus' statement has new meaning:
"Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's (his blood money), and give back to God what is God's (Israel)!"
Them's fightin' words...

 

[TLK Valentine]

Not sure I understand that. Let's say a person does not believe or understand the Bible. Would he suffer anyway, regardless of belief?

That's not what atonement theology is.

"Christ died for our sins." Agree or disagree?

 

[YoursTrue]

And whose fault was that? Who did Jesus firmly cast the blame on?
The priestly class - the ones who were supposed to be doing God's will, but had sold out instead.

When Jesus cleanses the Temple, and says "My Temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves," (Matthew 21:13), he's not just talking to the moneychangers, but also to the priests - after all, the moneychanges are only there because the priests allow them to be, and priests allowed them because they got a cut of the profits.

Another example: when Jesus says "Render under Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's," (Mark 12:17), this is another mistranslation - the Greek word "apodidomi" is being translated here as "render," but it's better translated as return. Properly translated, Jesus' statement has new meaning:
"Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's (his blood money), and give back to God what is God's (Israel)!"
Them's fightin' words...

okay...