The blind faith of the evolutionists

[Breathe]

I don't think the theory of evolution has anything to do with belief or lack thereof in a deity or deities. It is a purely scientific theory, so it is a separate subject from metaphysics and theology.

This. I feel it's dishonest to conflate evolution with atheism or theism. I've seen it done many times by both groups, but it's still strange to see.

 

[LuisDantas]

This. I feel it's dishonest to conflate evolution with atheism or theism. I've seen it done many times by both groups, but it's still strange to see.

It is certainly odd, at the very least.

 

[FearGod]

It is certainly odd, at the very least.

No my thread isn't about the process of evolution in scientific terms but about the belief behind its causes.

Some believe that there was no need for a God claiming that evolution occurred due to random mutations and the survived ones had passed their genes to the next generations and others believe that such process should be directed and not just arbitrary happening.

So it is a blind belief about how evolution had occurred billions of years ago whether to believe God was behind it or just arbitrary happening,but as you can see atheists constantly say we know how it happened and that is science,go to school,read some books,you are ignorant....etc

So they accept evolution in the terms that God's hand has nothing to do with it and that is a blind faith whether they like it or not.

 

[LuisDantas]

No my thread isn't about the process of evolution in scientific terms but about the belief behind its causes.

Then there is not really much to discuss, now there is?

Some believe that there was no need for a God claiming that evolution occurred due to random mutations and the survived ones had passed their genes to the next generations and others believe that such process should be directed and not just arbitrary happening.

Not quite so, FearGod. Basically, beliefs about God do not factor into either of those two options, which are in fact one and the same.

Sure, Evolution does not demand belief in a God, and therefore some people will see no need for a God. But Evolution is directed by the environment. The mutations are random, but the selective pressure is not.

So it is a blind belief about how evolution had occurred billions of years ago whether to believe God was behind it or just arbitrary happening,but as you can see atheists constantly say we know how it happened and that is science,go to school,read some books,you are ignorant....etc

Sorry, but it is you who are misunderstanding things.

We do have a lot of information these days. Your questions in this thread amount to "do we really have that information", and that answer is of course "yes".

It just turns out that the information, perhaps unsurprisingly, does not really say anything about God either way.

Therefore, your claim about the need of blind belief is just odd, and in a technical sense, it is indeed based on ignorance of the known facts.

So they accept evolution in the terms that God's hand has nothing to do with it and that is a blind faith whether they like it or not.

Nope. People will believe in God or not as they see fit. But evolution can hardly be used as evidence one way or the other.

 

[idav]

So they accept evolution in the terms that God's hand has nothing to do with it and that is a blind faith whether they like it or not.

One can always say there is an invisible hand guiding anything. The faith in some cosmic invisible hand doesn't change the evidence for evolution.

 

[Ouroboros]

'Humans evolved after a female chimpanzee mated with a pig': Extraordinary claim made by American geneticist

One thing you should know though... his idea has been rejected by the scientific community. He's a fringe nutjob with this idea.

No, Humans Are Not Chimp-Pig Hybrids

 

[Ouroboros]

One can always say there is an invisible hand guiding anything. The faith in some cosmic invisible hand doesn't change the evidence for evolution.

Exactly.

For a religious person, evolution should be the path they try to understand God and how God created the world.

 

[FearGod]

Nope. People will believe in God or not as they see fit. But evolution can hardly be used as evidence one way or the other.

Yes i agree evolution can't be used as an evidence by atheists to deny God's existence.

[youtube]fpy4v_NkQPE[/youtube]
1. EVOLUTION - FAITH OR FACT? - An Embarrassing Conundrum (VID 6 In A 7 Part Series) - YouTube

 

[outhouse]

One can always say there is an invisible hand guiding anything. The faith in some cosmic invisible hand doesn't change the evidence for evolution.

Exactly.

My yellow ducky did it all! and no one can prove me wrong.

 

[Ouroboros]

I find it interesting too that a video made by the "Banana Argument" Ray Comfort from Way of the Masters somehow supposedly should trump education and scientific books. Talk about silly.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yes i agree evolution can't be used as an evidence by atheists to deny God's existence.

I agree with that too. It shouldn't be. What it should do is to show believers how God did it. Just because evolution doesn't fit into the stories in their holy books doesn't undo the truth of how God did it in reality. Everything points to a big bang. If a religious book says God created the world using a teaspoon, we should understand that science got it right and the teaspoon creation is wrong, but it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. It's all about understanding how.

 

[FearGod]

I agree with that too. It shouldn't be. What it should do is to show believers how God did it. Just because evolution doesn't fit into the stories in their holy books doesn't undo the truth of how God did it in reality. Everything points to a big bang. If a religious book says God created the world using a teaspoon, we should understand that science got it right and the teaspoon creation is wrong, but it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. It's all about understanding how.

The silly thing is that people think that God creates by his hands, if it was so,then who created us,God's hands too.

For example the miraculous birth of Jesus regarded as unscientific and a stupid thing to believe in,and if we asked the atheists how creation started before life existence,they'll say it can be,but we don't know yet how exactly it did happen,read about abiogenesis,take some courses about biology,go to school and educate yourself then you'll know how matter and life started out of nothingness,and if they lost then their usual straw man question "who created the creator"

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The silly thing is that people think that God creates by his hands, if it was so,then who created us,God's hands too.

For example the miraculous birth of Jesus regarded as unscientific and a stupid thing to believe in,and if we asked the atheists how creation started before life existence,they'll say it can be,but we don't know yet how exactly it did happen,read about abiogenesis,take some courses about biology,go to school and educate yourself then you'll know how matter and life started out of nothingness,and if they lost then their usual straw man question "who created the creator"

But it still doesn't make it the creator you believe in.

 

[FearGod]

But it still doesn't make it the creator you believe in.

Did i say so ?

 

[Ouroboros]

The silly thing is that people think that God creates by his hands, if it was so,then who created us,God's hands too.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I guess what you're saying is that since we know that neither you or I were hand-crafted but rather born, we know that God creates through Natural processes. Am I understanding you right? If that's what you're saying, yes, I agree.

For example the miraculous birth of Jesus regarded as unscientific and a stupid thing to believe in,

I stopped arguing that with Christians years ago. Parthenogenesis does exist in nature, so I can't say it's impossible. It's very improbable, but perhaps not impossible.

and if we asked the atheists how creation started before life existence,they'll say it can be,but we don't know yet how exactly it did happen,read about abiogenesis,take some courses about biology,go to school and educate yourself

I did. And abiogenesis is a very open field right now. There are several ideas on how it could have happened, but nothing conclusive yet. However, we do know that most parts and components in biological life can be assembled by nature. It's happening in your body right now as we speak. Your body is making "living" matter out of "dead" matter. So the question is not that it can't happen, but exactly how it happened. It's like knowing that Bob traveled from Los Angeles to New York, but we don't know if he drove there, took the train, or flew, or maybe even transported himself there using a Star Trek teleporter.

then you'll know how matter and life started out of nothingness,and if they lost then their usual straw man question "who created the creator"

Well.. I'm not sure how that relates to evolution in general. How matter came to be or how life started, neither one really affects evolution. Evolution (I assume we're talking about biological evolution) relates to the changes of existing life, not how life arose or how particles interact. This is the reason why we have multiple fields of science. One field deals with a certain aspect of reality and nature, another one deals with another. We don't have to know how life came to start to know that the life that started later evolved. It's like the difference between knowing where iron comes from (which mine etc) and building a car. A car manufacturer doesn't have to know mining or geology or astrophysics or quantum mechanics to be able to manufacture a car. A car can be designed, built, and used without us knowing quantum mechanics. You don't have to know wind drag coefficient to be able to drive the car. The same way, evolution is working on living things that somehow came to be living at some point, and how they are changing, not how they came to be. Put it this way, you or I, neither one of us know how this website was programmed or who did it, but still, we are using it. The use of the website/forum is a different field or context than how to program and install it.

 

[brokensymmetry]

Do you think Darwinian evolution is a blind faith ?

]

No. Evolution is an extremely well founded biological theory. That random people don't know what it is precisely means nothing. If you go up and ask people what general relativity is about, even people educated in the sciences, they are going to have a hard time being specific. Yet, general relativity is backed by a lot of specific physical evidence (including corrections to your GPS).

Are people irrational for accepting scientific theories they poorly understand? Well, no. We can't all be experts in everything and at some point it makes sense to accept the majority expert opinion on a matter. It would be better to take time to understand stuff you are going to pontificate on, but in general, if I look something up and find out 99.99% of biologists accept it then I ought to also.

 

[FearGod]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I guess what you're saying is that since we know that neither you or I were hand-crafted but rather born, we know that God creates through Natural processes. Am I understanding you right? If that's what you're saying, yes, I agree.

Thats it exactly. :yes:

 

[Ouroboros]

Thats it exactly. :yes:

So then we both agree that God creates using natural processes, like evolution and such?

If that's the case, the only difference between us two is that you believe that God is separate from Nature and I believe God is one with Nature. If it's so, then I can tell you that's it's not my intent to change you on that belief.

To answer your opening question in this thread if evolution "belief" is a "blind faith", the question is still no. The evidence to support evolution is very strong, and for "evolutionists" is very evident from the supporting facts that evolution is true. Now, this doesn't mean that every aspect and detail in evolutionary theory is absolutely and undeniably correct at all times. There are still a lot to learn. And there are still many questions. And the evolutionary process is a lot more complex than most books try to portray. There are a lot of moving parts to evolution. In other words, in general, evolution is true, but it doesn't mean every detail in the theory is always exactly correct.

And when it comes to the video, the producer of that video has a history of not doing research and manipulating books, data, sources, etc to create propaganda to convert people to Christianity. For instance, he reprinted Darwin's book but redacted it and took out chapters he didn't think were necessary. On top on that, he wrote a long introduction to the reprint with a slew of misrepresentation and misinformation about evolutionary science. So I don't take Ray Comfort as the best source for evolutionary science. Besides, he's not a scientist at all, but a preacher and evangelist.

With that beings said, to make this clear, I have no issue or problem whatsoever with a person who believes in God but also believes in evolution. I know, not just believe, that Evolution is true based on my studies. That doesn't make me an expert on Evolutionary Theory, but personally, I don't just have faith or believe in Evolution. I'm 100% convinced, much more than I ever was convinced about Jesus as a Christian. As a Christian, I had my doubts. With evolution, I have none. But it doesn't mean God can't be part of that puzzle.

Put it this way, smart game programmers use algorithms to create worlds, creatures, plots, and much more. That's very smart. Instead of putting in hex-code by hand, programmers use tools to create the things for them. Why couldn't God have created this world with algorithms to create life? That's what a smart God would've done.

 

[FearGod]

So then we both agree that God creates using natural processes, like evolution and such?

If that's the case, the only difference between us two is that you believe that God is separate from Nature and I believe God is one with Nature. If it's so, then I can tell you that's it's not my intent to change you on that belief.

What do you mean by God and nature is the same thing ?
Would you please illustrate ?

 

[Ouroboros]

What do you mean by God and nature is the same thing ?
Would you please illustrate ?

That would be to go outside of the topic.

I'm a Naturalistic Pantheist (or Naturalistic Panentheist). You can look it up.

Or look up Spinoza and read about his views and reasoning. That's easier than me trying to explain it here.