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The Book or the Prayer

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I think one symptom of religious fundamentalism today is the reliance on 'the book' (and let's be realistic, the major world religions today all have scriptures of a kind, the major ones being the Bible and the Quran, then we have various Dharmic texts).

We see people pointing out verses and demanding they be followed to the letter and understood in exactly the same way. Before the 16th.c in Europe this wouldn't have been possible and this situation would be lengthened further in the Middle East and Africa, where literacy rates remained low. Even regular churchgoing was rare in Mediaeval Europe and Mediaeval Masses did not require lay participation. 'Religious' was a formal term applied to monastics and others employed in Church business. Everyone else would not have thought of themselves in this way, but more so simply as 'Christian' (Or 'Muslim' or 'Jewish'). Rites and practices varied considerably and this was not problematic. Bibles were extremely expensive to make and were often chained to churches in later periods.

Whilst I don't advocate for scriptural illiteracy, I think the widespread printing and reading of scriptures has left us with a problem, that we read and hone in on things that, frankly, only we may care about. Social issues of our day such as abortion, homosexuality, were barely touched upon in the Middle Ages, let alone damned with scripture. Nor were they straightforwardly understood in binary terms we know today. Either way, modern people now seem overly reliant on scriptures and many groups determine this to be a good quality.

Sometimes though, I think we can miss the wood for the trees. Many would simply have had prayer books if they could read, or beads or other counting devices if not. For most of history layfolk would not have been pointing to this or that verse, but will have been praying well-worn prayers, creeds, songs and so on. They would have known the basics of their faith and been content not to be bothered with any more. Some would argue this is a bad thing and they should have been bothered, but has this uptake in scriptural literacy really helped? Or has it caused more division, confusion, hatred and fundamentalism? Has the book merely become a tool to bash others where before we may have simply recited an Our Father, Apostles' Creed, agreed together and gone on our way, except for a few nutcases?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The OP is clearly part of the picture. But the turmoil in the world today, what some have called "polycrises" cause some people to obsessively cling to fanatical views in order to try to find some certainty in their lives.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I think one symptom of religious fundamentalism today is the reliance on 'the book' (and let's be realistic, the major world religions today all have scriptures of a kind, the major ones being the Bible and the Quran, then we have various Dharmic texts).

Don't the Western "Nones" aka Atheism people of different and or many shades present Science as if it is another sort of "Book" in their support, please, and some of them have even resorted to make sort of their " Churches" also, one comes to know, please, right??

Regards
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think books are a problem, but I think regular sermons are. This has always been the case I think. Moses' face stops glowing, but he doesn't want anyone to know it, because people aren't nice and don't like it if your face isn't glowing. They will cut you to pieces the moment they think it isn't. They want a symbol, someone who is beautiful, someone who is confident. So you have to keep talking like you're still hearing from heaven. Above all you must always have something to say, must preside over funerals and other events. You must never have any weaknesses, and your speeches must be interesting never boring or repetitive. I think the sermon is a doomed institution that just won't die.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Good points, and I guess that might be what attracts me to spirituality that's more experiential, as in some sense, there's nothing to argue with. Somewhere in your argument, I think there's a clue on what might have enabled for the 4 'conflicting' gospels to survive, while at same time, christian unity was paradoxically achieved, at least for a long while.

I still value reading what I can though
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
When I sat through my class in German legal history, the professor said that that according to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, abortion was allowed up to 1913, because there is a part in the Bible saying that unborn boys receive a soul only after 45 days and unborn girls after 90 days. As at that time, one couldn't determine whether the unborn would be male or female, it was always assumed that you were pregnant with a girl and so women could abort up to 90 days after conception. :rolleyes:
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
I think one symptom of religious fundamentalism today is the reliance on 'the book' (and let's be realistic, the major world religions today all have scriptures of a kind, the major ones being the Bible and the Quran, then we have various Dharmic texts).

We see people pointing out verses and demanding they be followed to the letter and understood in exactly the same way. Before the 16th.c in Europe this wouldn't have been possible and this situation would be lengthened further in the Middle East and Africa, where literacy rates remained low. Even regular churchgoing was rare in Mediaeval Europe and Mediaeval Masses did not require lay participation. 'Religious' was a formal term applied to monastics and others employed in Church business. Everyone else would not have thought of themselves in this way, but more so simply as 'Christian' (Or 'Muslim' or 'Jewish'). Rites and practices varied considerably and this was not problematic. Bibles were extremely expensive to make and were often chained to churches in later periods.

Whilst I don't advocate for scriptural illiteracy, I think the widespread printing and reading of scriptures has left us with a problem, that we read and hone in on things that, frankly, only we may care about. Social issues of our day such as abortion, homosexuality, were barely touched upon in the Middle Ages, let alone damned with scripture. Nor were they straightforwardly understood in binary terms we know today. Either way, modern people now seem overly reliant on scriptures and many groups determine this to be a good quality.

Sometimes though, I think we can miss the wood for the trees. Many would simply have had prayer books if they could read, or beads or other counting devices if not. For most of history layfolk would not have been pointing to this or that verse, but will have been praying well-worn prayers, creeds, songs and so on. They would have known the basics of their faith and been content not to be bothered with any more. Some would argue this is a bad thing and they should have been bothered, but has this uptake in scriptural literacy really helped? Or has it caused more division, confusion, hatred and fundamentalism? Has the book merely become a tool to bash others where before we may have simply recited an Our Father, Apostles' Creed, agreed together and gone on our way, except for a few nutcases?

That's a very christocentric view, one that would not apply to all People of the Book,
as you probably know.

The problem of an illiterate laity is that some authority, whether it be chuch doctrine
or rabbinic precepts, will interject their own ideas and biases and call it 'god's will'.

Hence you get Luther's Reformation, in the face of some really messed up things.

Ignorance is not bliss, it's a recipe for slavery to made-up nonsense from corrupt clergy.

Righteousness is simple really, do unto others...
Religion is made overly complex for capitulation.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think one symptom of religious fundamentalism today is the reliance on 'the book' (and let's be realistic, the major world religions today all have scriptures of a kind, the major ones being the Bible and the Quran, then we have various Dharmic texts).

We see people pointing out verses and demanding they be followed to the letter and understood in exactly the same way. Before the 16th.c in Europe this wouldn't have been possible and this situation would be lengthened further in the Middle East and Africa, where literacy rates remained low. Even regular churchgoing was rare in Mediaeval Europe and Mediaeval Masses did not require lay participation. 'Religious' was a formal term applied to monastics and others employed in Church business. Everyone else would not have thought of themselves in this way, but more so simply as 'Christian' (Or 'Muslim' or 'Jewish'). Rites and practices varied considerably and this was not problematic. Bibles were extremely expensive to make and were often chained to churches in later periods.

Whilst I don't advocate for scriptural illiteracy, I think the widespread printing and reading of scriptures has left us with a problem, that we read and hone in on things that, frankly, only we may care about. Social issues of our day such as abortion, homosexuality, were barely touched upon in the Middle Ages, let alone damned with scripture. Nor were they straightforwardly understood in binary terms we know today. Either way, modern people now seem overly reliant on scriptures and many groups determine this to be a good quality.

Sometimes though, I think we can miss the wood for the trees. Many would simply have had prayer books if they could read, or beads or other counting devices if not. For most of history layfolk would not have been pointing to this or that verse, but will have been praying well-worn prayers, creeds, songs and so on. They would have known the basics of their faith and been content not to be bothered with any more. Some would argue this is a bad thing and they should have been bothered, but has this uptake in scriptural literacy really helped? Or has it caused more division, confusion, hatred and fundamentalism? Has the book merely become a tool to bash others where before we may have simply recited an Our Father, Apostles' Creed, agreed together and gone on our way, except for a few nutcases?
I've always said the danger of sola scriptura is that of creating one's own, homespun theology and of thus reinventing the wheel, badly.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
When I sat through my class in German legal history, the professor said that that according to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, abortion was allowed up to 1913, because there is a part in the Bible saying that unborn boys receive a soul only after 45 days and unborn girls after 90 days. As at that time, one couldn't determine whether the unborn would be male or female, it was always assumed that you were pregnant with a girl and so women could abort up to 90 days after conception. :rolleyes:
Err... this is false.

The issue in the Mediaeval era was when is the unborn infused with a soul. The Bible says nothing about this; there are no such verses.
 
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